Quote: Anyone have any really nifty, creative ideas to sweep this wonderful man off of his feet?
Yep. Break out the thong, M.
Remember, Martians don't really need the 'nifty, creative' stuff. Use the tried and true. There ain't nothin better than a little somethin' somethin' on V Day.
Oh okay, if I must. Hopefully, your date will allow for some slow dancing. If not, work that in at home.
Thanks for weighing in on the suggestions! Unfortunately, by the time Feb. 14 rolls around, I think SO will be back on daddy duty. We'll have to work it in over the weekend. Right now the date plan is go to a supper club with a small quartet for a little dining and dancing pleasure.
SO and I have had some good, but hard, conversations during the past few days. A few nights ago, I had a dream. The content isn't that important, but suffice it to say that it had to do with OW2 (who turned out to be someone he had an A with during R1).
Anyway, when we first talked about it, I wasn't very direct and it just sort of came seeping out (Mistake #1). I was still on the fence about discussing it with him at all, but then I caught him looking for OW2's car.
So when it first started to just come out, he got defensive and tried to turn it around back on me and point out some past mistake I had made. While we didn't argue, this just simply wasn't a pleasant conversation. I pointed out how humiliated I felt because it turned out when I was being suspicious about stuff, I was right and was made to feel so wrong and guilty about being suspicious in the first place. He admitted he feels humiliated about it now and doesn't want to discuss it with anyone. He doesn't want anyone he knows to know about it; he's too embarrassed. We were both sad. (This conversation occurred on the phone, btw.)
The next day, Sunday, I got up and went to church. I was feeling pretty bad about the conversation -- after all, it's not his fault I had a dream that reflects my own insecurities. Of course all the usual lessons about forgiveness where there during worship. I realized right there and then that I truly have forgiven him. I really do want to trust him and I DO want this to work out. I also know that's not going to happen if I use this to club him with sometime in the future.
We met for lunch after church and talked about it a little more. He doesn't even like using the word "affair". I told him the reason I keep coming back to this is because I know that A's are only a symptom and not the problem. I told him that I was sorry about the way the conversation went the night before, and that I know I contributed the breakdown of the R1 which led to an A. I also let him know that I want to understand what I did wrong so I won't do it again, and that I don't want either one of us to ever be in that position again.
Here's the interesting part -- his response, so listen up, DR's...this is straight from a WA's mouth:
He told me that an A is never the victim's fault. The fact that we weren't getting along at the time was merely a convenient excuse. In his estimation, this kind of behavior, at least on his part, is a character flaw.
Wow. How's that for leaving you speechless, eh?
You know, eventually, I think I would like to get SO on this bb. I think he'd be a great former WA to share a lot of good perspectives, and trust me, he loves to talk about himself! He'd be the first to admit it!
And here's something of interest to note: I have noticed internally that the more of these conversations I have with SO, the closer I feel to him and the more I trust him again. I feel that he is being more open with me, and that openness creates a new environment for trust to grow.
I get ansy whenever I hear someone describe themselves has having character flaws, etc..., as usually this involves sizable guilt and (more troubling) the potential for the person to see themselves as not changeable. To me, personality isn't as free-flowing and changing as the clouds in the sky, but neither is it set in stone.
It must feel good to hear him owning some responsibility. The trick may be to not be seduced into allowing him to own all of it, for that would likely lead to an eventual place of resentment on his part. Every human R involves an interaction, so your exploration of your own role seems spot on. Maybe he's trying to take sole responsibility in response to your obvious pain?
Gabe sounds right on the money about the talk of "character flaw." It's good that SO takes responsibility for his action. I hope that he sees himself as changing whatever brought him to that point.
'Course, my POV is quite slanted, having just divorced the woman who agrees with her mother that "people can't change."
If he's on Dad Duty, will you get together with some FFs for a MOMster truck rally instead? (Where's the "grin, duck, and run" smiley when I need it?)
Your friend,
Joe
My sitch More importantly, Light A Million Candles
Ah Gabe and K, my faithful companions through all of this!
Thank you for commenting!
Quote: I get ansy whenever I hear someone describe themselves has having character flaws, etc..., as usually this involves sizable guilt and (more troubling) the potential for the person to see themselves as not changeable.
I completely understand what you are saying here, Gabe. But remember, SO is a self-educated philosopher, libertarian and egoist (the Ayn Rand stuff). He's totally about choice and he knows his character is for him to mold and shape.
Quote: Maybe he's trying to take sole responsibility in response to your obvious pain?
I think this is an excellent observation and it fits right in with SO's thinking of himself as a hero/resecuer.
Yes, it did feel good to hear him say this, but not nearly as good as I imagined it would. I suspect this is true because I don't believe it.
Yes, we are all responsible for our own happiness, so whatever was going on in our R at the time was no excuse for him to seek that kind of happiness somewhere else. However, I also know, from what I've learned from DR, most of the things I did wrong back then:
I was whiney
I was sad
I was a nag
I came off as needy
I spent no time trying to take care of myself and expended all of my energy in trying to save the R
I was angry and felt rejected, which came out inappropriate ways
Gee, who wants to be around that? Doy.
Joe, I understand where you are coming from too. You've been through hell and back, and it's good that you recognize that your recent experience with your XW and the D are influencing how you see things. Remember that when you're ready to start dating, my friend.
Quote: If he's on Dad Duty, will you get together with some FFs for a MOMster truck rally instead?
Oooooo no, no, no, my friend! Remember, I live in a snooty university town! No MOMster truck rallies here! Most of my spare time (most recently) is taken up with extra work, school, church responsibilities and family.
I also recently joined a club that SO has been wanting me to join for years! So that takes up a little bit of time, too, but it's fun.
Quote: I came off as needy I spent no time trying to take care of myself and expended all of my energy in trying to save the R I was angry and felt rejected, which came out inappropriate ways
Gee, thanks for the reminders! Keep this on my don't do list.
Quote: I also recently joined a club that SO has been wanting me to join for years! So that takes up a little bit of time, too, but it's fun.
How come? Just wondering.
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
The club in question is called Toastmasters International. SO is a huge extrovert. He enjoys being out with other people, and being in FRONT of other people, being the center of attention.
Toastmasters helps you improve your public presentation skills in a very safe (small club) environment so you can learn where your strengths are and where you need improvement.
Now I've been going to TM related meetings, conferences and parties with SO for years. Sort of a TM groupie, if you will. Not only is this an activity he enjoys, but it's a social circle of his where the people sincerely enjoy me and I enjoy them (unlike his other social circle where he hung out with OW2). Last November, SO won a district-wide contest for a speech he gave. He was wonderful. The conference was great fun. I finally decided at that time that it was time for me to join. So, I picked a local club that SO does NOT belong to (he belongs to 3 or 4 local clubs), because I knew if I was going to do this, I had to carve out my own piece. SO is a very well-known Toastmaster in the state, especially after winning this contest.
It is something we can do together. I have to give presentations from time to time for work, so I figured it wouldn't hurt me professionally anyway. And it's something fun we can do together.
This is probably one of those things that falls into the "I would rather be happy than right" category. I mean, after all, why not?
Thanks for swinging by my thread and for the words of encourgement - I appreciate that!
Couple of random observations from a man's point of view...
First - you did well to recognize that you wanted the convos to have a different pattern - and for telling him so. That's great stuff and diffused the sitch nicely.
Second - have you read "Reinventing Yourself" by Stephen Chandler? The reason I ask, is that he discusses "forgiveness" - and offers "acceptance" as an alternative. IHO, he feels that "forgiveness" can be a trap for it connotes a sense of moral superiority and it's something we bestow upon the offending parties out of this superiority - and yet, we often keep this forgiveness lying around and use it as a cudgel when we feel slighted later on....
Lemme ask you a question - you say you "want to trust him"....what will he be doing when he builds trust up in your? And have you told him this/praised him when he does these thing?
Third - character flaws. Cop out. That makes me leery of his reasoning - perhaps that's a sign of his movement back toward you...."no fault--->character flaw---->responsibility for one's own actions. IOW and esp since he's big on character building, his saying "character flaw" as his "excuse" shows me he's still wrestling with this internally - at least he doesn't blame you - and that's the huge first step....
Overall, your stich seems really promising and forward moving....he's def coming to terms with himself and you're doing a great job of analyzing the context of the convos - did they work, what you can do "better", etc - and as you note, the efforts you put in here are paying off in spades for *your* internal feelings.....
Doy. 