Quote: So, I for one, want your advice on my thread
OK, my advice is still "find someone who's making it work and pick her/his brain." I offer support, based on my experience of difficulties in my M. That's not the same as experience of success. I'm serious. I believe you will get good advice that way.
To follow up on what still_hopeful said about validating, here's another way to look at it. All you are really saying is that you understand how/why H could believe/feel/think whatever. You've often posted about how he might see things a certain way for some certain reason. You're already validating when you do that. It's just an admission that it's possible for someone to hold the positions he holds.
You have a lot of guts to go through so much for your M and your family. Pat yourself on the back when you need it.
Your friend,
Joe
My sitch More importantly, Light A Million Candles
If my W had a one night stand, I don't think it would change my feelings because all the underlying issues would still be there and I think she would still be a WAW. Don't know if that helps.
Just to clarify I wasn't coming from the angle that a one night stand is any less harmful than some other kind of involvement, but I wanted to emphasize that I think sometimes the LBS gets so caught up in 'winning' their partner back that they don't stop to think about what they would do if their partner had never carried on a R with someone else and the LBS didn't need to 'win' them back. In other words, if you knew you weren't competing for her, would it be easier for you to show your ugly side to her? Using her willingness to work on things as leverage to punish her?
Are you saying you see it as a matter of your pride that stops you from being validative?
I'm saying it's my pride that keeps me from lying just to stroke his ego. Half the time I *don't* see where he's coming from, or even if I can see the underlying concept, he expresses it with so much hatred that I feel totally alienated and confused as to why he would react so strongly and/or treat me so poorly.
In lieu of dropping validative sentences about understanding where he's coming from, How about this option: to actually try and understand where he's coming from?
Yikes. If my self esteem isn't already damaged, it certainly would be then!!
After so long, I wish I could just blanket the whole situation with this: I cheated on my H. It was a terrible thing and has caused him a great deal of pain. He may never be able to forgive me. I cannot say that I deserve forgiveness, so if that's the way he feels as well, then I understand that our M has to be over. I cannot understand him feeling this way and yet refusing to let me go. We only have two options. Stay married and work through it or divorce. Stay married and stay angry and miserable is not an option for me.
He says he could've gone to the appt., but decided to pick up the kids BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T ANSWER THE PHONE!!!! Not because "he decided not to go".
At the time he called the first time, he wouldn't have had any way of knowing that I didn't cancel the appt. He was probably calling to see if we could still go.
If he had gone, who would've picked up the kids? Was he real about possibly keeping the appt. if it meant stranding the kids? I don't get it?
If he had gone, him and I would have picked up the kids together. Our MC session was at 4pm...the kids don't have to be picked up until 6pm. H usually gets out of work around 4-4:30 though and he picks up the kids as soon as he gets out....we never leave the kids in daycare longer than we have to. So, he was saying that since he couldn't get ahold of me to find out if we could still do the MC, he went and got the kids which would be normal.
His anger toward you festered so that by the time you got home, you keeping an appt. was all about YOU DOING WHATEVER YOU WANT WITHOUT REGARD TO CONSEQUENCES. WTF????
Consequences are a big thing with H. He uses that word all the time. Deep down, I think it's why I am still not in my bedroom, etc. Because there HAS to be consequences for me cheating on him. If he lets go of the consequences, then I "get away with it". This consequence thing has carried over into other areas of our R. He seems to think that I am not sorry for what I did, that I think life just goes on. It drives him crazy, but he's reacting to his own assumption of how I feel not a true depiction of how I feel.
And what are these consequences? Now, he DOESN'T KNOW IF HE FEELS COMFORTABLE GOING TO THE COUNSELOR!! I beg your pardon, could you pass the WTF, again?
Well, him not going to see the counselor now would be a consequence of going to the appt alone. It would be a case of 'you brought this on yourself because you chose to think of no one but yourself....I was perfectly willing to go, but now...'. Not wearing his wedding ring is a consequence of my affair. Not being allowed in my bed is a consequence of my affair. Not riding in my vehicle is a consequence of my affair. You know the drill.
I think Michelle would say for us to not assume he didn't intend to keep the MC, but rather assume he did. Act AS IF he did at least.
Maybe I'm naiive, but I really do believe he intended to keep the appt.
My H was very very fearful about MC being one-sided.
On the one hand, I understand that. On the other hand, why would it be one-sided unless you knew you were acting in a less than admirable way? Anyway, later that night, I told H that the C had said she liked him and he seemed very nice. She didn't really say that....I just wanted him to know that we weren't ganging up on him in the session.
Concrete goals can be that you will use a calm and non-threatening tone and demeanor. That you stop what you are doing, look at him, listen, pause and think before you speak to validate.
I'm gonna try really hard. Hatred courses through my veins for him....often. To give him any comfort whatsoever is a real stretch for me. I wonder if it's just too damn late.
OK, my advice is still "find someone who's making it work and pick her/his brain."
Sheila (Piglet) posts in Piecing. I've thought about opening a thread over there, but then H and I are not really at the point where we can honestly say we are trying as a couple. But I can still hang out over there and see what I can learn.
You have a lot of guts to go through so much for your M and your family.
Thanks Joe. Sometimes it feels like I just don't have the guts to leave. I prefer to think of it your way
Thanks to all.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
My working dinner is tonight. Until this morning nothing else has been said about it between H and I. This morning after we got the kids in their car seats, I followed H back into the house and stood by the door and said "I understand that you have concerns about my dinner tonight. I will let you know where we are going as soon as I know and I will call you when I get there. I also won't have anything to drink if you'd prefer that." He mumbles "I forgot that was even tonight" and he walks down the hallway away from me. I said "Can I finish talking to you?" He said "What" but he didnt' come back out where I could see him. I said "Ok, I guess I am finished talking." He said "I have to get ready for work" and he went in the bathroom and shut the door.
I went out the front door then came back in and almost...almost...opened the bathroom door. But I didn't. I turned around and walked out of the house. I said what I needed to say, I validated as much as I could. On the way to work, I thought about his reaction. I keep thinking that if he wants me to be more considerate, less selfish, then you'd think he'd acknowledge it when I try. He shot me down. Why would anyone set themselves up for that? It was hard to do what I did this morning. I didn't want to validate his feelings, I practically don't even care what his feelings are anymore because I can't separate fact from fiction anymore when it comes to him. But I did it. And I got nothing.
But then I started thinking....this isn't about him...it's me I'm trying to change.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
But then I started thinking....this isn't about him...it's me I'm trying to change.
Amen to that Heather. Like we on the other side say, we can't control someone else. You have to change for you and if he doesn't see it, then oh well, you can't make him change. I think you did great by not pursuing the conversation farther. I think it would have gotten ugly and there was no need for that. You did your best to belay his fears, validate him and let him know you would continue to do that throughout the night. You even offered to change your behavior (no drinking) to make him more comfortable. I will draw a parallel to PArob's thread to show you why I think you are doing the right thing. He's in a position where he needs his wife to do exactly what you are doing right now and I believe that if she did that, he would be feeling 100% better right now. If my W came back and was willing to do what you did today on a regular basis, I don't think I would have any problem forgiving her and working on building back my trust of her. Problem is that too many people that are in your position, like my W, do not have it in them to do what you do. They cannot let go of the blame they put on us. They cannot let go of the sense of entitlement they got from all those years of "suffering" the marriage. In short, they really don't think they did much wrong, and that is what makes for a tough reconciliation. You just keep doing the right thing. He will either come around to it or not. I hope for your sake he does.
You did great and that is something to feel great about!!
Do not expect a change in H immediately. You need to be consistent in what you do. These things take TIME. Quit doing it with the expectations that it will influence him and thus control how he responds. Do what you can do. Expect nothing back. And keep doing it. And keep doing it. That's what DBing is!! It takes a lot of time to turn the tide. You are just now starting to re-focus on yourself. This takes so much strength because you have to work on changing YOU without expectations on what you will get back. Why you MUST detach and not take it personal. You must make these changes permanent and be patient while waiting for results!!!
Good job and keep doing it! Control your emotions, your reactions, keep your cool...you've got to start thinking of this like a strategy, a game, and be determined to win. The challenge is with yourself...how much can you embrace these changes within yourself REGARDLESS what another person does??? You can do this.
Thanks you guys. After reading your posts, I felt really confident....like "I can do this!!". I called my H just to say hi. He wasn't very responsive at all. I told him I'd call him later.
He just called me back and said "I'm going to need you to pick up the kids." I said "What?" He repeated "I'm going to need you to pick up the kids, I'm in the middle of something and I'm going to be here another couple hours." I said "H, tonight is my business dinner..." He said sarcastically "What time is your date??" I said "My dinner is 6:00pm" He said "What the HELL??" I said "What time did you think it would be?" He said "I don't know, nevermind, I"ll handle it." And he hung up.
Needless to say I don't feel so much like I can do it anymore. I'm deflated. Not defeated, but definitely deflated. I'm very upset.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
You CAN do this! You don't have to want to, but you can. He is trying to get a rise out of you obviously. I know from where you're sitting it's frustrating and maddening, but please don't respond to his bait. It didnt work this morning so he's trying to lay it on you again this afternoon. He's wrong.. and I'm sure if you go ahead and go, he'll say you didnt care, the dinner was more important than your kids etc. Whatever he throws out there... let it roll off... don't respond. He wants you to take the bait and start an argument so he can say hurtful, mean spiteful things to you that you don't deserve in order to punish you. Go.. have a good time. He's probably going to be ticked later, and when he is.. have something waiting.. a form letter response. H, I understand you didnt want me to go and I can understand why, but I had to go as part of my job. If you want to express your feelings, I'll listen. Let him vent.. don't respons.. don't defend... shake your head and say uh huh.. give him a hug.. say "I'm sorry this is all so hard for you". Then get a bath and go to bed if you can without defending or arguing. Is this possible at all?
Thinking of you. I know this is hard. I wish you didnt have to deal with this. Huggs.
Hey Sheila, thanks for stopping by. Well, it turns out I didn't go. After he hung up, I still fully planned to go. But then he called me back and asked how much we would have to pay if we weren't there to pick up the kids in time. I said I don't know, but not picking them up isn't really an option H, those people wait for us so they can go home to their families. He said well, I don't know what to tell you, the ship is getting underway tomorrow and they have stuff they have to get done before the ship can leave. If he was telling the truth, which I have to assume he is, who's plans are easiest to cancel....my kids had to get picked up! So I talked to my boss and apologized. Told him H had to work late unexpectedly.
Then as if all that wasn't bad enough, I get to the school to pick up my kids and S5 literally starts crying b/c I came to pick him up and not Daddy. He keeps asking me "Why are you here? Where's Daddy, Daddy always picks us up, I want Daddy." Then he says "Why do you always pick us up so late?" I knew those were not his words. I said "S5, who says that? Who says that I pick you up late?" He said "Daddy does, but it's true. Look how dark it is outside!"
I'm so disgusted by everything I can barely breathe.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Last night, H came home, we didn't even exchange words. I wasn't angry, I just had nothing to say. I felt empty. I don't know how he felt, but he didnt' say anything either. After the kids were in bed, he left to go get movies and while he was gone, I went to bed.
When H was on his way home from work last night he called and talked to S5 practically his whole way home. I heard S5 say "No, I wasn't the last one there....". I don't know why H is trying to make the kids feel like I don't care enough about them to pick them up early.....like I said, I don't know what is up with his job, but he leaves the house after me in the mornings, takes long lunches and still gets out an hour to an hour 1/2 before me to pick them up. I don't get out of work until 5:00pm and if I walk out the door RIGHT at 5pm, I'm not gonna get to their school until 5:30 earliest. And who gets out the door RIGHT at 5pm? So, it's usually like 5:45 and the school closes at 6pm. THe comment I heard S5 answer on the phone along with him telling me that Daddy told him I always get there too late when I pick them up, I feel like H is trying to make me and the kids feel like I'm being negligent because I can't get there sooner.
This morning wasn't any better than last night. Worse actually because last night, at least no words were spoken. This morning, I come out to brush the kids' teeth and H and the kids are lying on the couch. I say "Sit up guys so we can get your teeth brushed." D3 says "We're cuddling". Daddy says "Awwe. Can't we just stay here all day and cuddle?" And I just stand there waiting for them to sit up with toothbrushes in hand. This is the way it is on a lot of mornings. H sits on the couch and cuddles with them while I get ready, but somehow I always end up looking like the bad guy because I'm trying to hurry everyone along. I am 15 mins late for work every day, which my boss doesn't mind, but that's not the point. This morning I just asked the kids "Guys, you want Daddy to take you to daycare today?" They answer yes. I say "Is that ok Daddy?" He just looks at me and expresses disapproval, I can't even remember exactly what he did/said. I say "I can take them, but it's 7:15. I need to get them up and their teeth brushed and out the door if I'm going to take them....I just need your help." He says "I got S5 dressed and got his cereal. I'll take them, don't worry about it". I say ok. He then brushes their teeth right away. I get my stuff together and say "If you're going to finish getting them ready, I can take them. I just need ot get going." He says "I'll handle it". I said "Ok, I just feel like if you're going to take the extra time, then you need to be prepared to take them to school if it starts meaning I'm going to be late." He said "I don't need a lecture from you." I said "I'm not trying to give you a lecture." He said "I don't need your opinions, your voice, nothing." I just said whatever, kissed the kids and left.
Wanna take bets that H is going to start that thing where I won't be 'allowed' to take the kids to daycare anymore? Monday morning, I already know how it will go.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Your H pisses me off. If he wants to leave, then he should go. I know I don't mean that, and you don't want it but WTF! Ok, I had a lot more written but I deleted it because it was just more angry stuff you don't need to hear. What I will say is let this be a lesson to all of us why DBing can do something for a marriage. Heather, wouldn't it have been great if your H had embraced some of what we talk about here and is in the books? Even if he wants this marriage, he is so hung up on destructive thoughts and feelings that he may end up being the one that destroys it, not you, who he blames for being the evil one. There is something to be said for us men who are able to put aside our caveman-ness and look deeper into the situation to find truth that is not evident on the surface. I wish so much that your H would find a way to see how much you are trying (and respect that effort) so that he might get motivated to do his own soul searching. I know you are frustrated but I think you owe it to yourself to take the advice given and stay the course. He is doing some pretty hurtful things, and they make you sad/angry/frustrated, hell, they make me feel those things. I hope you find the strength. I really do.
