Learning to Trust Myself V

[Tim297181]

I blame myself way too much in my situation, and you can't do that...It takes 2 to tango!
I read some of your posting and I am goal orientated also, and it is real hard not seeing your goals meet or at least see progress on your timeline! Patience is hard but I know personally is needed!
Flaneur said it that she is waiting to write her "success story", and I felt I was so close but had my wife contact the OM the other day and take a major step back! I think in my case I dwell on what should be and what did happen instead of thinking of what great things can happen over time!
Just my ramblings!

[koshka]

Heather,

I just found your new thread yesterday (sorry I missed your birthday!) and I wanted to find some way of saying, "Be optimistic."

I'm not sure I can manage that, but how are the rest of your interactions with H? Is he making good on the therapy/counseling? Will you be in MC together?

You can learn from this experience and keep your boundary in place, if you have some good things on other fronts to help you stay motivated.

Don't blame yourself. You saw things getting better and you acted on that. But if you do have some good things going on, don't discount them yet. Go back to your plan and be clear about your boundaries.

Thanks,

K

[Burgbud]

Hey Heather!

H has not slept in my bed again since the night I wrote about. The next night it was just like all previous nights with him going to bed in our room and me sleeping in the study.

I'm sorry, Heather. I'm sorry your sitch is messed up. I'm glad you're not!


The part that makes it so hurtful...

You feel tricked. But you don't know if he meant to trick you or not. He's obviously been confused before (most of the time, I'd argue) so maybe he was confused himself on where you guys were going after that. Then he retreated. Who knows?


But he invited it to such a great extent that to not initiate would have been a rejection if that makes sense.

Well, at this point you know that next time he's inviting a rejection if he chooses this course. It's not on you to accommodate him.


But it left me once again asking myself what the hell I'm hanging on for.

That sounds to me like you're getting more toward a "take it or leave it" place, which seems pretty healthy for you right now. And maybe a little threatening to him. Too damb bad.

OTOH, you know what you're hanging on for, and you'll continue to hang on as long as it's worth it. When it becomes clear that it's not, you know you have options and you'll be okay. A lot better than okay, in fact.

So cheer up a little! He doesn't own your emotions or your happiness. You're great, Heather, and he'll either figure that out or wish he had. Okay?

[heatherg]

(Mellanie) Sometimes I just shake my head when I hear how some people treat each other.

You aren't kidding! It's shameful.

(HopeFloats) Maybe if it happens again, you might play it differently, so you feel a little more in control of your boundaries. But you have to go with what feels right to you.

Yes, I did what felt right and I really can't blame myself for that. Next time, like you said, I will play it a little differently, with more caution.

(Tim) It takes 2 to tango!

My H hasn't figured that out yet. And I can't be the one to tell him. It's like a parent/teenager thing. There are some things people just have to realize on their own and the more one pushes the more the other resists. I sure wish his epiphany would hurry the he!! up.

(Tim) I was so close but had my wife contact the OM the other day and take a major step back! I think in my case I dwell on what should be and what did happen instead of thinking of what great things can happen over time!

We all have backslides in our situations. It's destiny My favorite thing lately is to tell myself three steps forward, two steps back. But focus on the step forward that remains. That way I keep optimistic and am not surprised or disappointed when the steps backward come. Because I know they will!! It's hard. It's hard to focus on what's right when there's so much that's wrong that it practically overshadows anything right.

(Koshka) I just found your new thread yesterday (sorry I missed your birthday!)

Thanks, glad you found me!

(Koshka) how are the rest of your interactions with H? Is he making good on the therapy/counseling? Will you be in MC together?

The majority of interactions with H have improved. There for a while we were actually loving toward one another. That isn't the case lately, but we're still improved over what we were.
Regarding the counseling, Still_Hopeful suggested that I call the DB coach for a suggestion on a counselor. I did that, but they don't recommend anymore. So I went with the recommendation from my IC and I'm waiting for them to call me back to set up an appt (they are veryifying ins info). It sounds like he intends to make good on it, but it remains to be seen. I have been slack in setting up the appt, but I got my behind moving yesterday and I mentioned it to him.

(Koshka) But if you do have some good things going on, don't discount them yet. Go back to your plan and be clear about your boundaries.

Well said, thanks!

(Bud) You feel tricked. But you don't know if he meant to trick you or not.

This is true. He said he had no intentions of having sex that night. He said he wanted to and made that clear, but that was not his intent in sleeping in my bed. I asked him why he hasn't wanted to sleep in my bed since then and he said he has. Thinking back, I should have inquired exactly what he meant by that, but I didn't. So you're right. I don't know if he meant to trick me or not. If he did, I bet he won't do it again

(Bud) That sounds to me like you're getting more toward a "take it or leave it" place, which seems pretty healthy for you right now. And maybe a little threatening to him. Too damb bad.

Yeah, I think I am at take it or leave it. I've been so reluctant to agree with him when he says "Things have to be YOUR way...". Now I'm starting to agree. Yes, they do. Certain things. It's about knowing myself, my boundaries, what I want out of a marriage and what kind of parents I believe we should be for our children. I'm not a dictator and I don't think I'm unreasonable. So yeah, he can take it or leave it because I'm not denying who I am and how I feel anymore.

(Bud) So cheer up a little! He doesn't own your emotions or your happiness. You're great, Heather, and he'll either figure that out or wish he had. Okay?

Okay

[heatherg]

Venting session....

Ok, so H and I disagree on S5's bedtime, that's been going on for a long time. But, I tell myself that I do not try to enforce my idea hard enough, so I cannot fully blame H. So lately, I've been becoming much more involved with S5's bedtime, like I'll tell him he needs to get his pjs on now or go potty, etc. Last night at 10 minutes til 9, S5 asks what he has time left to do, which games we have time left to play. I told him I was so proud of him for thinking about what time it was....I told him that shows what a responsible young boy he's becoming. I tell him we have 15 mins so we can either play Candyland or Sequence. He asks about Chutes and Ladders and I start to say no, but H says we definitely have time for that. Not being 100% positive that we don't, I say ok then. The game doesn't get over til like 9:20 or something. Then I tell S5 instead of getting up after his tape is over (he listens to a bedtime story) that he needed to get all of his potty needs over now. He does. The next step in the bedtime routine is to read a chapter out of a book series that S5 was given for X-mas. Granted, the chapters are small. The next step is to read one of S5's I Spy books together. We used to all three spy something on every page, but H has narrowed it down to each of us spying on a page and then picking just one page where we all spy something. So that goes a little quicker than it used to. The next step is to turn out the light, H exits and I spend a couple minutes telling S5 goodnight and that I love him. The next step is for H to go back into S5's room and lay down with him for probably another 15 mins telling him a story that he makes up or just talking. Then S5 listens to his storybook tape, about 10 mins. This is where he used to get up to go potty, but hopefully I eliminated this step going forward. So now, the next step is for S5 to get up and get a drink of water and go back to bed and listen to story book tape again. H has told him he is allowed to get out of bed three times (hopefully now only two) so then he gets up again and makes what H calls 'the deal'. That is where they do a handshake that if S5 stays in bed, then if he is still awake when H goes to bed that he can sleep with H. H says he did this part for me b/c I used to complain that S5 gets out of bed too many times.
I went to bed while H was still laying in bed with S5 telling him his story or whatever, it was 10pm exactly. I fall asleep. H wakes me up 10 mins later by entering my room and telling me that S5 wanted H to tell me that he just brushed his own teeth. My reply is "That's great, but it's freaking after 10 at night!"

Writing this all out makes me realize the absolute idiocracy if the whole freakin thing. What do you all see when you read this?

So I get up after he gets S5 in bed again I got up and H asked me if I told S5 that he did a good job brushing his own teeth. I asked H "What the he!! is the matter with you?" He says "Um, you're insane?" I said "What TIME do we have to start bedtime in order for S5 to get to bed at a reasonable hour? I think if you were to take a poll of the United States of America, most people would back me up on this!" He turns to the TV and says "I'm trying to hear this." I go to bed. This morning he does nothing to help me get the kids ready. He knows that gets under my skin big time. He sits on the couch and cuddles them while I run around getting myself, their lunches and them ready. I hate that and he knows it so when he actually gives a crap how I feel, he will brush their teeth and put their shoes on for me. Believe it or not, that is a big help.

I want him to agree that we can do whatever routine he or S5 wants, as long as S5 is in bed ready to close his eyes at 9:30. He says no way.

Is there any way out of this hole I'm in?

[grasshopper]

Wow, a chance to comment on something OTHER than a$$hole WAS's....thank GOD!

My W and I have always placed HIGH importance on our kids' bedtime. We started a routine with them as soon as they were able to understand it. Right now, we have family time on the couch, either reading books or watching tv for about 1/2 hour. They get a drink (little one still likes his milk) and at the end of that time, they brush their teeth and go pee. The older one (5) then goes to his room and I lay down with him while my wife sings a couple songs to the little one (3) and puts him down.
She then comes into the older one's room and gives him his kisses and occasionally lays down with him for a few minutes. We usually start all this by 7:20 and finish by 8:00 or so. Sometimes our s5 will come out and want someone to give him one more hug, but most of the time he stays put. s3 usually goes right down but wakes up sometimes in the night.

So, we have a routine, but it seems a little less involved. In terms of yours, it seems a little excessive. Actually your bedtime routine seems like our dinner time routine (ours are terrible eaters).
All the deal making and such probably seems to the kid to be empty threats or gestures. Since we have had relatively few problems in this area it's hard to comment. It seems like general wisdom says that you need to set a policy of when bedtime is and enforce it with no compromises.
Again, that seems to be what most experts say to do. You ultimately need to do what works for you. If this is not working for you, then obviously you need a change.

TMU

[NYsurvivor]

S wants to play a game at ten minutes till bedtime? And he still has get his pjs or brush his teeth... tough.

H says otherwise? You know what he's teaching him, right? Don't listen to mommy, do what you want, no responsibility.

Maybe a compromise is, want to play a game at ten minutes till bedtime? H says there's time? "Fine. But at 9 sharp, you'd best have your pjs on, have brushed your teeth, go pottied, and be in bed - and H, you make sure he is, and please, no excuses. I want a responsible parent here, and you're the parent, not S."

He turns to the TV and says "I'm trying to hear this."

That of course you realize is his way of avoiding you and the topic. And therefore, a way of avoiding himself.

S might benefit from being de-programmed in all the steps needed to train him to go to sleep (beyond the potty and brushing teeth habits constructive habits, of course). And certainly, the last thing you want to do is stimulate with him by permitting games being played, instead it's a time for him to wind down.

Have you guys started the counseling sessions yet?

[heatherg]

(TotallyMessedUp) All the deal making and such probably seems to the kid to be empty threats or gestures.

S5 would go to bed and go to sleep if we told him to. He is old enough to understand that temper tantrums are not tolerated and it wouldn't be a problem. It's H's refusal, not S5's refusal, to cooperate with a 9:30 bedtime that is the problem. Believe me, with kids I know things can be difficult. It's not always easy to keep things sane. Last night, we were in Sports Authority and the kids were being especially active while I was checking out and I asked the lady if she had kids. She said no. I said "I didn't think so, I can tell by the way you're looking at me!!" I can handle the kids, but I need some help with H

(NY) Maybe a compromise is, want to play a game at ten minutes till bedtime? H says there's time? "Fine. But at 9 sharp, you'd best have your pjs on, have brushed your teeth, go pottied, and be in bed - and H, you make sure he is, and please, no excuses. I want a responsible parent here, and you're the parent, not S."


I would love to able to say something like that to H. He'd see it as confrontational and condescending and wouldn't pay me any attention accept to tell me I'm crazy.
Your example is sort of what I tried to implement last night, except the game went on until 9:25. Part of the problem with the game (and a perfect example of how H drags it all out), I won the game. So, then S5 asked if we could play to see who comes in second. I said no, H said yes. They continued to play. But yet I'm the one who won't compromise in his eyes. He just doesn't get it and I doubt if he ever will.

(NY) S might benefit from being de-programmed in all the steps needed to train him to go to sleep (beyond the potty and brushing teeth habits constructive habits, of course). And certainly, the last thing you want to do is stimulate with him by permitting games being played, instead it's a time for him to wind down.

Like I said above, S5 would be okay with this. Especially if we cut things out little by little. It's H who is saying "NO WAY" to a 9:30 bedtime. I'm not even that averse to the routine, it's just that if it's going to be that extensive, then we need to start way earlier. H won't hear of it. 9:15 is when he starts getting ready for bed and he won't entertain any other time (unless it's later). So that routine I posted above won't ever get started before 9:15. And even that, H hinges on that D2 MUST be in bed at exactly 8:30 for the 9:15 time to hold for S5. D2 rarely gets to bed at EXACTLY 8:30 because we are usually out doing family stuff and are just getting home. But as soon as we get home, I put her to bed. H asserts that if we get home late, then everything gets pushed back for S5.

(NY) Have you guys started the counseling sessions yet?

I want us each to have an individual session first and mine is Wed Jan 18. I am telling H it was the counselor's recommendation to have an individual session first to get acquainted with each of us. So, joint sessions will be happening soon. I really hope he can help. I purposely scheduled with a man so that H will be less able to tell me, like with porn, that all guys do it. Because there will be a guy in the room to disagree. Hopefully our counselor isn't a fan of porn

Lastly, people here at work have been asking about my H and if he'd like to come to work here b/c we have a ton of work coming up and they all know H travels and I don't like it. H is not in this exact industry, but he has some applicable experience and they'd probably hire him. He sent me his resume to turn over. However, now I'm getting cold feet. My place of work is my haven, my refuge from him and all our M problems. I can't imagine working in the same company if we divorced. I keep wanting to move forward with all these big dreams, things that would be great if WE were great. But we're not and I have to stop kidding myself. We talk about him coming to work here and us building a house over here and we're taking dance lessons and....it's so easy to get caught up in it. And then it comes time for bed and my dreams all of a sudden fall to pieces. Until morning. Then I can pretend again.
Ugh.

[SweetRedd]

Heather,

I missed posting to the bedtime dilemma before, but now I'm gonna chime in I agree with you of course! I think what's most important is to have a routine that works for everyone. I also think your H is making it much harder than it needs to be and undermining your authority with your kids. I have S19 (he goes to bed at 2AM now..haha), D11, S6 and S3. Ever since S19 was little bedtime was 8:00 until they start primary school at least. D11 goes to bed at 9:00. She asked to have it moved to 9:30 this year because she's in Jr. High, but ended up saying it was too late for her and she felt tired during the day. We get baths about 7:00. Depending on how long want to play in the tub, they might have time for a game or video, then we read between 7:30 and 8:00. It's usually 8:30 before S6 is completely settled in. Some nights he goes right out, but others he gets up to go to the potty or "tell us something"..haha. The point is, it's a relaxing time for us and the kids get a sense of security knowing the routine is the same every night and they can't push it too far. It makes them feel like someone is in control, even when they don't *want* to do something, an adult will set a boundary and help them learn to stick with it. Some children this isnt as important with, but our S6 has an impulse control problem and if we don't step in and have rules, he gets anxious and feels out of control. I can't imagine the kids being up until 10. Even on the weekend, their bedtime isnt much later. Is your S in kindergarten? They need so much rest to cope during the day. I've had people ask me how we got such smart kids.. and I've said that our kids aren't any brighter than others, I honestly believe they can focus better in school when they're well rested.. and in S6's case, havent had chocolate!

I feel your pain GF (as usual). XH is off of work right now and D11 told me he let the boys have chocolate milk and chocolate donuts before school weds! He knows S6 can't handle chocolate. We've been over it a hundred time, yet he gave in and let him have it. When I asked why (yes, I did it nicely), he said he *forgot*. WTF? We're taking S6 to a psychologist for these probs and Dad can't remember that he reacts badly to chocolate? Kids are allowed to forget that kind of stuff, parents aren't!

Hang in there! Not long until counseling starts and maybe he'll help ya'll work this one out too.

Sheila

[Jabez]

Last night at 10 minutes til 9 , , , and makes what H calls 'the deal'.

Hey Heather sorry to hear about this problem in your life. IMHO, the bedtime routine is too complex, too many steps.

Granted I'd the dad of teenagers, but I am able to remember what bedtime was like way back when, and out routine started @ 8 with bath time, then brushing teeth, 3 books (or later 1 chapter of a book) and then potty. Lights out at 9. It was an hour to wind down as someone else noted.

My input: It's important for you and H to discuss this at a time other than bedtime, away from D5. Explain your concern about S5 getting enough sleep and being alert in school to H. Ask how much sleep he thinks that S5 needs (nicely).

Also, you didn't mention what time S5 wakes up. Is he getting 8 hours of sleep?