Quote: You lowered your needs. I have said you cant do that, I have said the mans mental state controls the R. So you have allowed this.
Not sure I understand how I can control this. I have listed my Full needs before and people said this would be impossible from a very LD women. So I have created a starting point that is as stripped down as possible, and hopefully I can work it up from there.
Quote: If you were truly confidant you would know your W wants you. She is not LD.
My wife is not even LD, she is ND. She has openly admitted to me that if she never had sex again, it would not bothter her. Please explain to me how a person with no sex drive can actually "want". I can understand that they could "Love" but "Want" is beyond that.
As for the things she used to be, she really is not these today. She was athletic, now she is fairly overweight, and even as much as she exercises, I am afriad that her thyroid problems don't allow her to ever lose weight. This causes big time body image problems in her. I NEVER complain about the way she looks, SHE does. She does not see herself as sexy anymore. Intelligent and likeable, still there.
I’m on your side brother. I hear and understand. I think you have a real problem with presentation, but there is certainly truth in what you say and legitimacy in what you ask.
What BF and others don’t seem to grasp is that some people just don’t care for sex. They insist on trying to convince you that your W really isn’t ND even though she has told you that she is. They may be correct in that assertion, but they are totally wrong in refusing to accept the possibility that your W really is ND. Some people simply have no libido. It can be mental/emotional, but it can also be hormonal, caused by various meds, related to other health problems, or any number of other things. Maybe, just maybe, MrsCeMar really is just ND.
BF, I’m not picking on you, but you seem hell-bent on this idea that masculinity and self-assurance are the panacea for all R problems. I’m sorry, but that’s simply NOT the case. I know that I’ve contributed to my own problems, I don’t deny that, but none of your ideas will work for me. I don’t know what MrsZB’s problems are, but they predate me. W simply has a deeply ingrained distaste for sex. She’s not lacking desire for me, she’s completely lacking desire. She has said in MC that she hates men. She has said, very specifically, that sex is “gross”. She has made countless comments in reaction to movie and TV characters that underscore her statements. She has said that she never gets horny and that she wouldn’t care if she never had sex again.
Some posters have said that her interest in romance novels indicated that she does have an interest in sex, but I say they’re wrong about that too. Again, W likes the romance, but not the sex that goes with it. In fact, she’s quite vocal about disliking the sex in the stories. She much prefers the older ones where the sex is either implied or simply non-existent. She much prefers the chaste heroines.
She loves me very much. She is very desirous of physical closeness. She’s very affectionate. She loves snuggling/cuddling. She kisses. She holds hands. She is probably the world’s biggest massage fan. Hugs are enthusiastically given and received. None of this sounds a bit like she’s turned off by me or by my relative level of masculinity, confidence, self-assurance, or whatever. The problem is that none of this translates to sex. She likes me just fine; it’s sex that she doesn’t like.
Sorry for the hijack, CeMar, but I wanted to make the point that regardless of their spouse’s behavior, some people just don’t have any interest in sex. People keep telling you all kinds of things to rekindle your W’s desire. They keep telling you that she isn’t ND or even LD, but that problems in the R are preventing her from expressing her D. Again, they may very well be right, but they may be wrong too. And I have yet to see anyone even attempt to answer your very legitimate questions about how the HD partner can cope with ND from their spouse.
As I said before, I think you have a presentation problem. You seem so angry and so unwilling to accept that you might be part of the problem that people have a hard time relating to you. You just seem to radiate anger and entitlement. I, myself, have said that I don’t see how your W could help but pick up on some of that anger. I’ve said that the anger and entitlement aren’t helping you a bit. But I do feel your pain. I do understand your frustrations. I just wish I had something to offer. But the fact is that I don’t.
How do you build or maintain any EC with a spouse who steadfastly fails (refuses?) to fill your love tank? The common wisdom here seems to be that if you speak to them in their LL, if you fill their love tank, then they’ll just naturally want to reciprocate. But we know that’s not true. At least you and I do. If MrsZB really does have NPD (which I’m convinced she does), then there are problems beyond the sex and desire issues, but knowing that doesn’t help me. I still don’t know what to do to get my own love tank filled.
I don’t know if this is right or wrong, but right now I’m just trying to change my own way of thinking. Ever since the shrink dropped the NPD bomb, I’m working on recasting my view of the R. You would think that after 30 years I would have gotten the idea, but I’ve always seen ours as a sexual R. Sex-starved, but sexual. Now I’m changing that. We have an intimate R, but it’s not sexual. If I acknowledge that it’s not a sexual R, (which after 30 years, it’s clearly not), it eases a lot of my expectations. And I’m realizing that a lot of my own pain was the pain of unmet expectations. I expected to have sex with my W. When that didn’t happen, I felt cheated. Now, I don’t expect it, so I don’t feel shortchanged when it doesn’t happen. I’ve also been angry at W for not even trying to meet my needs in what was supposed to be a sexual R. I’m losing the anger too. If it’s not a sexual R, then there’s no expectation that she try to satisfy me sexually, and no reason to be angry when she doesn’t.
Don’t get me wrong. This is not what I want and I’m not happy about it. But it is helping me deal with the pain.
Thank you for taking the time to reply to us/me Cemar. I appreciate it. Its very frustrating to have a conversation with a non responsive participant. I havent been ignoring you, (or chrissy) you just require more thought to reply too.
I have listed my Full needs before and people said this would be impossible from a very LD women. So I have created a starting point that is as stripped down as possible, and
Do you know what jumps out at me from this? Despite others -who have no clear idea of your sitch- saying its impossible you said
Quote: hopefully I can work it up from there.
Why are you hopeful? Something is there. What is it? These are the things I see in your posts that speak of a strong undercurrent of a passionate cemar, but in withdrawal, and your biting comments to me seem to be fear of coming out of it.
Fighting us is effort in the wrong direction. your tough though putting up with my jabs, and jokes and sarcasm. No doubt your tough.
If you truly believe she is ND, and this is something you are not able to deal with, (completely understandable) that it was understood implicitly or directly stated when you got married, IF you feel that she has broken her marriage vows to you, then why dont you divorce? If you refuse to divorce you are eliminating pretty much all power you have. I dont recommend negative pushing in general, but you cant bargain with nothing.
If you Choose to not divorce, for your sanity and for any attempts you may try, get rid of your envy of your peer group. It is killing your mind set. Resentment and entitlement will never make your W 'FEEL' anything positive towards you. Her 'FEELING' positive is essential, vital, to intimacy. Of any type. Since she is not here, Im not going to talk about what she should do, could do, etc.
I NEVER complain about the way she looks, SHE does
I believe you work out from your comments. Have you tried to include her? Could you get her to go on a bike ride with you once a week to start? If you are in this for the LONG haul, stop looking at the hurdles. Every journey begins with a single step.
When she complains about her looks have you ever considered saying 'yeah ok what are you going to do about it?' Have you ever considered educating yourself and her on nutrition? Take a class together, -say- 'I care about OUR Health, I want us to learn to take care of each other better.' This is leading and being a team. its a baby step.
IF you believe your wife is unequivocally ND, then stop being hopeful. Accept, or move on. two choices. Pick one.
I dont disagree with you. There are ND people, there is no panacea for someone who will not work with you.
There is a self admitted lack of boundary control, confidance and asserting needs here by most posters. I talk to them and offer them specific advice on a topic I know. It is also a place to start working on themselves.
but none of your ideas will work for me. I dont believe I have offered any to you, ever, or at least in a long time. I didnt think I could help when I read your sitch. I emphatically thought that after you posted the NPD. Im sorry I have no help for your sitch.
Ironically, you got great advice and directions to new education because of that thread. I sincerely am glad that you have come to acceptance, since you have made your choice on the matter.
I will say, since you choose not to leave ZB, and I do respect that, have you tried ANY of the boundary setting and 180's people have offered? What have you got to lose? It was good to hear about the affection part of your R, I had no idea it was so extensive.
I am going to talk about the Nops for a sec, because they are a mutual frame of reference. Hypothetically speaking, If Mrs Nop was ND and still to this day had no desire for sex, but was merely 'acting' for the sake of her marriage, Would Nops efforts and actions be without merit? Would it be 'BAD' for Mrs Nop to have this physicallity that she had no desire for? Would his 'selfishness' be doing her a disservice and harming her? IMO, in this hypo situation, his strength and assertiveness would be good for her. It would be doing what she needs, pysch-wise, health-wise, marriage-wise not necessarily what she Wants. Behaiviour can be changed, new habits can be started.
We have a right to enjoy life. If our spouse chooses to not be a part of that endeavor, stops being our teammate, our helper, our partner, we have a right to move on in our endeavor.
IMO.
There is no Honor in being or allowing ourselves to be disrespected.
A woman will never feel attraction for someone who she can disrespect, or who allows her to do so. Cemars W was passionate at one time. She was not ALWAYS ND. That makes your and his sitch different.
Thank you for your measured response. I singled you out when I shouldn’t have and I apologize for that. I’m just trying to deal with a mountain of frustration and resentment and most of what I see here either comes down to “meet her needs”, or “be assertive and self-assured”.
Let me get back to CeMar for a minute. I know that all of us have had our frustrations in dealing with CeMar. He certainly appears to have an attitude problem (and it may just be appearance), and he does have a tendency to speak in absolutes. He’s something less than forthcoming when we ask him questions. But I see a lot of the same frustrations in CeMar’s posts that I feel myself. He asks about getting his needs addressed, but all he gets in response is questions about MrsCeMar’s needs, how he’s trying to meet them, and things like that. I understand that those are valid questions and in many situations, are the key to resolving the problems. But they get no response from CeMar. Either he’s ignoring the suggestions and saying, “I can’t catch any fish”, or maybe he’s feeling like I am: I’ve tried all of that and gotten nowhere.
We all assume the former, but what if it’s really the latter? In an effort to get past all of that, CeMar has even gone so far as to ask his questions with the stipulation that ALL of MrsCeMar’s needs are being met and that she’s completely satisfied. That is most certainly not the case, but I see where CeMar is going. If he lost the entitled tone to his writing and dropped the absolutes, his questions would come out more like, “When I’m bending over backward to meet her needs, when I’ve lowered my expectations, and compromised my own needs far more than seems reasonable, when I’ve done the GAL thing, and MrsCeMar still doesn’t appear to have any concern for my needs or make any effort to meet them, what can I do?” But he still gets nothing but, “What do you two do together?”, “What makes MrsCeMar tick?”, “Does your happiness depend upon your W?”, and others like that.
I perceive CeMar as saying that he knows there are problems from both sides. He knows he has work to do. But as all of us know, it’s really, really tough to do that work when you see no efforts from the other side. CeMar is asking a very legitimate question: everything I’ve seen, heard, read, or experienced has been about meeting her needs – I’m working on that, but when do we get to the part where my needs are addressed? How can I keep this up when I never see any response, never see any improvement, never see any effort to address what I want and need from the R? Since I’m the only one who seems to be getting that from CeMar’s posts, it’s probably because I’m feeling those frustrations and reading them into what he says. But regardless of why, I am seeing that and it’s resonating in me. I feel like I’ve made Herculean efforts to improve my M and seen no changes and gotten nothing in return. I do feel that I’m a better person, but my M isn’t any different.
Something in me broke when I heard the NPD diagnosis. I’m still going in and out of the anger stage. When I responded to CeMar, it was a cry of anger and frustration. With the NPD diagnosis, I was basically told that it will never change, never get better. In my anger, frustration, and resentment, I’m asking one of the same questions I ascribed to CeMar: how can I keep this up when I never see any response, never see any improvement, never see any effort to address what I want and need from the R? Or more simply, when do I get my turn?
Just wanted to say that the whole resentment thing you mentioned (when is it my turn?) resonates in me as well. Granted, my situation is far from being as intractable (I hope anyway, but time will tell) as yours. It may even be that CeMar's is the worst here, he certainly has a LOT of resentment, maybe it is for a legitimate reason and he just hasn't been able to find the right words to express himself here. Anyway, just thought I'd chime in with an "I feel your pain", even if just a little in comparison.
prince chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Quote: ------------------------------- Or more simply, when do I get my turn? -------------------------------
Have you told you wife about the diagnosis?
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Going to go back to your other post in a minute because there was something there very close to home in it but just wanted to comment on this one thing.
Your last few post are really hard to read your frustration and your pain really pour through your words. And it so so sad to see someone in so much pain.
I am going to give you my take/answer to your closing question.
when do I get my turn?
Not until your wife decides to make what is important to you important to her. She can be ND and still have sex. Mrs Nop does it. And way more often then what it would take to fill alot of HD mens love tank. Why? Because it matters to her that her H be fufilled. Only if your wife decides this really matters to her will you ever get your turn.' Every sucess story on this board has taken both partners working towards a common goal and both partners willing to come out of there comfort zones to met each other needs.
Just my opinion. Sorry it is not a little more encouraging
Zman, I know you love her but I don't think you are going to get your turn with her. She doesn't seem to have it in her and *nothing* has made her willing to try, not even divorcing her.
I think you are a wise man and are doing what you need to do now...namely, grieving...and then you will find peace of mind and clarity of thought and will know what to do to next. You remind me so much of my husband..I know we've had that convo repeatedly, but I truly wish you peace in the near near future.
Let me ask you this: In the reading you've done on the NPD message boards, are there any happily married couples? CAN this work in some as-yet-untried fashion, with you two?
Big squishy knock the wind outta you hug coming your way,
What BF and others don’t seem to grasp is that some people just don’t care for sex. They insist on trying to convince you that your W really isn’t ND even though she has told you that she is
I have no problem believing that a person can be ND. I believe your wife is ND. I do not think CeMars wife has a true form of ND more of brought on form of NDness based on statements he has made in the past. Some reasons may be hormonal and some based on there relationship/mindframe. But she did have a sexual nature at one time. She is still willing to have sex from what he has posted but it is duty sex in his opinion. He has even stated that his wife does O durring intercourse. (That to me indicates more of a arousal then desire type person).
She has said in MC that she hates men. She has said, very specifically, that sex is “gross”. She has made countless comments in reaction to movie and TV characters that underscore her statements. She has said that she never gets horny and that she wouldn’t care if she never had sex again.
I have said all of these exact same things plus a thousand more. I said them so often that I truely believed them myself. But ahhh I am not ND as we all know. I am not even truely LD. I actually have a very sexual nature. But I am very LD in my relationship and my negative thought process was allowed to out weigh my sexual inclinations. I don't want to have sex with H after he just screamed and cussed me for all I am worth simply eqaulled I do not want to have sex. Not interested and so forth. But truth is I am fine with sex I just don't care to have it with someone that is mean all the time except when we are having sex.
This is not your case I know but with CeMar it may hold true. Not saying he is mean subsitute that with. I don't want to have sex with someone who sat on the couch all day. Drank 10 beers or anything in his behavior that his wife may find as a turn off.
Cemar states there is no EC in his relationship. Cemar states that his way of forming EC is sex. Yet he also states that is not how his wife forms EC. And that he is not interested in having sex with his wife without the EC.
Simply put there is no EC outside the bedroom which means his wife has no EC to bring into the bedroom which stops him from recieving what he is really seeking in the bedroom activities. Meaning the problem lies outside of the bedroom IMO. Mind frame can be a huge stumbling block.
This dynamic lives in my household. I have no EC with my H outside of the bedroom. Now with my new attitude I can have sex but it still amounts to no EC. It is purely sex. CeMar has stated this is not what he wants. He wants the sex and EC also in the bedroom. Seems to me he either needs to start forming a EC outside of the bedroom or settle for just sex.
She loves me very much. She is very desirous of physical closeness. She’s very affectionate. She loves snuggling/cuddling. She kisses. She holds hands. She is probably the world’s biggest massage fan. Hugs are enthusiastically given and received. None of this sounds a bit like she’s turned off by me or by my relative level of masculinity, confidence, self-assurance, or whatever. The problem is that none of this translates to sex. She likes me just fine; it’s sex that she doesn’t like.
Sounds like she loves you and adores you. But is really just a ND person. Who is comfortable with the fact that you have accepted her as is.
And I have yet to see anyone even attempt to answer your very legitimate questions about how the HD partner can cope with ND from their spouse.
You have a ND wife. Which from the way your talk you get frustrated with but you love. So how have you coped all these years? I think love, beliefs and ones persona are all determining factors in how one would cope. And in truth alot of us would fail at this so how could we advise on how to do what we cannot do our selfs.without it being nothing but hot air? You and Nopkins would do better to offer a answer then alot of us here on the board who have sex frequently even if it is not quite as much as we would like or a little to often.
You just seem to radiate anger and entitlement
The entitlement is what gets my goat at times. But it is also what keeps me reading his post.
The common wisdom here seems to be that if you speak to them in their LL, if you fill their love tank, then they’ll just naturally want to reciprocate
I don't truely believe in that concept. I believe it can delude the other persons vision of how you feel. I mean if they are in happy camperland it may take them a long time to realize that you have not pitched your tent right next to them.
This is not what I want and I’m not happy about it. But it is helping me deal with the pain.
Bottom line is it is a way of coping but as you already stated you know it is not going to make you happy. So that is going to help you how in the long run?
