How to proceed?

[blackfoot]

Who's the MC this year, anyway?

Michele Weiner-Davis.

Acceptance Speech
------------------------

Gosh I just cant believe Ive won this, there are sooo many talented people here, who I think deserve it more.

So Id like to thank ALL the people who voted for me, specifically the majority of Paul92....................

and would like to say its nice to be in the company of some true masters, like my friend HD over there, <respectful nod> who has probably built a pyramid of statues, out of his awards....


I think thats how it goes...

[blackfoot]

Karen.
Exactly

Cemar.

No. Women are not going to comprehend our testosterone driven urges that basically cause us to want to F anything that has a remotely hourglass estrogen marked shape,( and please dont make me prove this) anymore then we understand their sexual enjoyment mechanism of being receptive and getting pleasure from our 'vigorous thrusting prior to our impending orgasms.'

Im not homophobic, but the mental picture of recieving that, gives me the heebie jeebies. I can logically understand their desire of it, but will never feel it. They will never feel ours, unless you mickey her drink with steroids.

As receivers though, she most certainly will feel your aura of need and in your case, a very high degree of domination overtone. Dominating is not attractive. Its completely different then being dominant. If your W was abused, that vibe that you are giving off of entitlement and deserving it for whatever reasons you have decided (hard worker, work out, good father, good provider, she owes you) will be strongly resisted.

I know my wife sure as heck does not know much about it. I dont know much of anyting about your sitch, but I wonder if you are correct about this.

At any rate she has a very specific idea of what a man should be like. If you arent that, neither you nor a myriad of books is going to change her feelings about it.

You cannot logical feelings.

for example, You chasing after something you believe to be improbable or impossible seems illogical to me. Untill you believe its likely and a certainty, that you can do it and know how, or can learn how, your just being a damn fool about it.

Your stuck in a loop. Cemar. If you cant get out of yours, to lead her out, how on earth can you expect her too? Thats your function, not hers.

There are dozens of questions you havent answered to the various R savvy ladies here. If you cant take some help and direction from them in this way, your W WILL break you of your need to control, and your need to have things your way, and it will be in a way you are not liking. How close are you to hateing her? Does she control your happiness? Finding the balance of leading and and being strongly confidant, while avoiding being bossy, disrespectful and dominating is not easy.

Either rise to lifes challenge or hit reset and hope the next challenge isnt so difficult.

As far as I can see focusing on her shoulds, have tos, and need tos isnt working. So why are you beating your head on that wall still?

You talk about EC but you never mention how you and your wife are friends, what activiites you do share, how she is important to you, what makes her tick, what she cares about, nothing remotely Emotional.

Just --she wont mix body fluids with me enthusiastically.


I just realized another illogical.

Me trying to get thru your entitlement. Guess what that means...

[CeMar]

karen1:

I did not pidgeonhole my wife as LD. She openly admited to me YEARS ago that she really had little interest in sex, and this was long before I heard the term LD.

[Becca1975]

I realize this is a few days old but wanted to comment to Scott on this:

The other night laying in bed I told her that I wanted to kiss her, and her response was "Why?". How sad.

I will say this. Someone saying that to me makes me feel put on the spot and uncomfortable. If you want to kiss me, then KISS ME, don't tell me you want to. The only exception to that would be a first date/first kiss kind of thing where you do need to take the temperature of the date first.

How do you reply to a statement like that? I'm NOT LD and the statement makes me uncomfortable because it makes me feel like you just gave me a huge job and I don't know where to start with it because you just threw it on me.

IMHO, if you want to kiss your wife, just kiss your wife, don't tell her you want to kiss her and then put the entire burden of what to do next or finding the right thing to say on her shoulders. I do think this is a personality difference, not necessarily anything to do with LD/HD. Only a certain type of personality would be able to effectively respond to a statement like that and not feel like a fool.

[honeypot]

Becca,
Now see I don't understand this.

What kind of statement is necessary? What is so potentially foolish about it?

What about just saying "Ok!"

Why the mental gymnastics?

Understand that I am not attacking your response or your feelings at all, I'm just not understanding why it would make you feel confused or unsure.

Speaking as an HD person, I'm never looking for a Wowza response I'm just wanting to be close. He could give me an affirmative grunt and I'm fine with that.

I suspect it has more to do with the fact that if he moves in for a kiss, the LD partner can always turn their head and avoid the whole matter, thinking that they have not rejected unless they've verbally spoken No, but it is rejection nonetheless.

I'm not sure what the answer is, because the LD partner certainly has the right to not kiss if they don't feel like it.

Honey

[Becca1975]

As I said, it is probably a personality difference. I also don't want to be asked questions during sex. I'll tell you if I don't like what you are doing or if I have a request. Many women are probably not that way, but it offers an example of why C didn't get the best reaction when he asked. You have to validate a little here, you may not understand or agree with it but it doesn't make how I feel about it WRONG. Just a different perspective.

[Chrissy]

If my H said I would like to kiss you while within the four walls of my bedroom. I would either respond Ok or thats nice. Neither with enthusiasm and more then likely with a hint of sarcasim or eye roll type expression. If my H was to kiss me I would either respond with a peck if not really wanting kissed or a response that says I am open to more then a peck. Both forms of saying I want a to kiss you verbally or physically holds a chance for rejection. But in my case vebally holds the larger chance for complete rejection.
I am more of a action person. If I want to kiss my H I will how far that kiss goes will depend on his response. If I want to have sex with my H I will inititate it.
Regardless of the outcome may be. The only time I can imagine telling someone I want to kiss them would be if they were a virtual stranger that I had a uncontrollable urge to kiss. Then maybe I don't know. Okay a for sure I can see myself saying this to someone if I had the urge to kiss them and they were miles away and we were on the phone. And it was not possible to just kiss them.
The fact that I am a action type person can have its down falls. I do not respond well to my H and his tenative feelers out type behavior.
It is actually a big turn off to me. Which causes me to react negatively to his mamby pamby like behavior. (that is just how I see it not saying it is). Though I do not like controlling behavior I do like assertive behavior in my spouse.

Just my 1 cents to the discussion

[CeMar]

Blackfoot:

Just some responses to your post:

I am far from dominating. All I have done is try to figure out what I want from my marriage. Do I impress this upon her, no. But I do know that in the long run, certain things are NOT compromisable. And believe me, I have lowered my needs to the absolute lowest level possible (probably lower then most men would actually tolerate).

You chasing after something you believe to be improbable or impossible seems illogical to me.

The things I want from my wife DO seem highly improbable. But I bet they do for MOST men in my situation. We certainly have seen NOTHING on these boards to change that perception. Maybe I need to stop thinking ahead.

How close are you to hateing her?

I probably should not say I hate her. We both are indifferent to each other, the opposite of love. This is completely natural since we both seem to not fill each others love tank.

Finding the balance of leading and and being strongly confidant,

Just curious as to what this really means, how am I going to lead her out of her issues. I have come to believe that I can ask her for changes, but how she changes must be left up to her and I must stay out of that issue. Also, if a man is truly confident and married to a LD wife, would that not mean that he would be confident that he could do better, which eventually means that a confident man would LEAVE his LD wife. I have actually seen this a lot in my place of work.

You talk about EC but you never mention how you and your wife are friends, what activiites you do share, how she is important to you, what makes her tick, what she cares about, nothing remotely Emotional.

Funny, everything I have talked about on these boards is EC. It is MY EC, it is not HER EC. But apparently, we are to ONLY address the EC needs of the LD spouse. I know that my wife and I have little EC. She wants trust, financial security, conversation, a father that spends lots of time with his children, a man with confidence, a man that just wants to be her companion (you know, just accept her for being LD). I am working on ALL of these things, but probably no as hard as I could. But not one of these things will build EC for me. I have no idea as to how to make it understandable to her as to what my EC needs are (and I have tried). The HD women on these boards actually get it, but RARELY do the LD women ever get it.

Are my wife and I friends, probably. Do we share activities, no, except for the family stuff (and there we are incredibly busy). Family is FIRST to her, above marriage (which is always damaging to the marriage). How is she importatn to me? Well, originally, she was VERY physical with me, she was atletic, she was intelligent, she was sexy, and she was very likeable by EVERYONE. What does she care about, family. Everything is for the family, she wants me to be this way as well.

Does she control your happiness?

That is a huge question. Effectively, yes! What happens with sex starved men, they become iritiable and unhappy. I try to avoid this as best I can, but it is darn near impossible. As one well known counsellor says, women are responsible for their husbands emotions. A lot of truth to that. Now I know that everyone says to GAL away from the spouse, and that can help, but these are all MINOR parts of life. My jog is not going to make me happy, my hobbies are not going to make me happy, my children are not going to make me happy, my friends are not going to make me happy. What makes me TRULY happy is having a lover. Everything else is just a small piece of my happiness. I suppose that many people can go through life without a lover and be happy, but for me, that is a huge hole to fill in my life right now.

[snookchaser]

CeMar,

I read your post and thought to myself, "Geez, did he even read what he wrote"? I think that it's great that you've chosen to actualy share a little more details with the group, not many, but they're in there. But, some of your statements seem to me to be total contradictions. I know that the others here would do a much better job than I in replying to your post, but I can't help myself, it's way too easy.

All I have done is try to figure out what I want from my marriage. Do I impress this upon her, no.

Why not????? I mean, if you have figured out the things that you want in your M, and chose not to share them with your W, then how is she to know? She's not the Amazing Kreskin. More importantly, do you know what she wants in her M? If you can answer no to one or both of those questions, then that might be a good place to start working on your R together. I'm with you on the the SSM stuff. It really sucks! But, there is more to a R than sex. (Geez, did I really just say that?) What about being freinds? Doing fun things together? Watching TV together? Cooking in the kitchen together? Doing anything together (besides sex)?

Suppose that the magic sex fairy showed up to CeMar's house one enchanted evening and with the wave or phallically shaped magic wand, turned your W into a insatiable nympho who could never get enough of you. For the first week, you'd probably feel great and think to yourself, "Wow, this is great. I'm finally getting me need met". And met, and met, and met... Over and over again, until after about a week of all that non-stop boinkin. Your oscar mayer is just so d@amn raw and sore that you don't even want to think about getting another BJ anytime soon.

At that point, what do you two do? Is there dead silence between the both of you? Do you just lay there in bed w/ you "unit" in traction, while your recovering and not say anything or do anything with your W? What then...?

I probably should not say I hate her.

Why not, does she read your posts here? Are you afraid of our replies? It doesn't really matter though, your answer was loud and clear. To me at least.

...We both are indifferent to each other, the opposite of love....

If you are indifferent to her, how could you possibly doing everything to meet her needs as you have stated many times here. So you aren't meeting her needs. Also, (and Dr. LillyPearl, our designated language professor may correct me if I'm wrong here), the opposite of "love" would be what....??? ..."Hate"...?

...This is completely natural since we both seem to not fill each others love tank....

Well Duh! So, you aren't filling her love tank. Why? Your not meeting her needs. Why not? What do you give of yourself to her? Don't you know what her needs are?

I have come to believe that I can ask her for changes, but how she changes must be left up to her and I must stay out of that issue.

CeMar, your right on target with that. Your right, you can ask for changes, but those changes are entirely within her, alone to make. However, if your not meeting her needs (changes in you), how is she supposed to be willing and inspired with enough love to meet your needs. Someone needs to go first, and take the lead. Your waiting on her and she's waiting on you....

Also, if a man is truly confident and married to a LD wife, would that not mean that he would be confident that he could do better, which eventually means that a confident man would LEAVE his LD wife.

That statement just reaks of "No love for my wife at all".
Kinda like the "opposite of love". It started off going in the right direction, "confident that he could do better", (you realize that there's a problem and now can make efforts that lead your R back to a healthy, "love"-ing one). But then you make the quantum leap that "the confident man would LEAVE his LD wife". So, are you saying that not only are you not filling her love tank and that you hate her, but you also have one foot out the door and are willing to LEAVE? All because you can do better? Sounds to me like you haven't tried. You haven't done anything, you haven't given any of yourself.

Funny, everything I have talked about on these boards is EC. It is MY EC, it is not HER EC. But apparently, we are to ONLY address the EC needs of the LD spouse.

I won't try to speak for BF, but I really think that you missed his point. You didn't answer the question. I heard him simply ask 'what do you both do together'? Not anything to do with being HD or LD, meeting HIS this or HER that. But simply what do you both do together. Do you do anyting that you or she enjoys? That you both enjoy? Do you pick out and watch movies together? Do you go shopping together? Do you cook your favorite meals together? Do you talk together? Walk together... blah, blah, blah....?

I know that my wife and I have little EC.

When was the last time you bought her some flowers, "just because"?

She wants trust, financial security, conversation, a father that spends lots of time with his children, a man with confidence, a man that just wants to be her companion ...

Wow, CeMar, there some really great stuff here. Finally some details. This is exactly the kinda of stuff that folks here are wanting you to share. It's a start.

So, being trustworthy. Do you come through for her and do things that you say you'll take care of. Or do you let her down with simple things and/or important tasks?

Financial security. Do you have a steady job? Is there potential for career growth? Are you a dependable "Bread Winner"?

Conversation. Do you two talk? About what? About the family? About Home Improvements? Vacations? Cross-Word puzzles? Current Evenets? The History of Paint?

Spending time with the childern. Do you? What do you do with them? Do you play games together? Ride bikes together? Take them out for Ice Cream? Help them with their homework? Make toast together?

I am working on ALL of these things, but probably no as hard as I could. But not one of these things will build EC for me.

Well there then, you do have your answer. It's not supposed to build EC for you. You probably do need to work hard at actually doing those things. You know, prioritize your priorities, not only for your children (fill their love tank), not only for for wife (fill her love tank), but also for you (fill yourself with the gift of giving). Then you can reap what you sow. As I stated before. Some needs to go first, and take the lead. Your waiting on her and she's waiting on you....

Board Game analogy...
W picks up the die...rolls a 2
CeMar picks up the die....rolls a 6
Yea! You go FIRST.

Are my wife and I friends, probably. Do we share activities, no, except for the family stuff

Scary stuff there CeMar, with that first statement. Almost as bad as the ealrier "Opposite of Love"?. Find an activity to do together, one that centers on her primary interest. Family First! Tell me , what wonderful, unexpected thing can you do today, with regard to your "family", that will fill you wifes "love tank"? What ever it is, what ever you can come up with....just...Do it! (and don't expect anything in return). If this is important to her, make it important to you too. THAT builds EC.

And now you've said, in your closing paragraph, that your wife controls your happiness? While there is some truth in a HD being miserable in a SSM. Come on now. Besides have sex, what makes you happy? (and remember about the aforementioned "magic sex fairy") Do you like the outdoors? Fishing? Playing Guitar? Playing Video Games? Tinkering around in the garage? Building Stuff out of Wood? Watching TV? After all that nympho magic fairy sex and a broken weenie, what then? Do you really believe that GAL, doing things that are of interest to you or are important to you are MINOR? I mean, it's ALL part of YOUR life dude. Your only life, so that makes it MAJOR, each and every part.

And for Christ Sake...this one blows me away...

my children are not going to make me happy...

You should be ashamed of yourself. That is a very, very hateful thing to say. I hope that they never get to read that. Remember, one day, when your a very old, grumpy, frail, horny man (that can't do anyting about it). These are the childern that might have to one day, decide when you too old and need leave the solitude of your home by yourself and either move in with them or get sent to the golden pastures retirement home. Have you filled their "love tank" enough for them to make that decision for you when you no longer can?

I told myself that I wasn't going to put too much into this post. My own post is now locked up (yeppie) and it is time to start a new year with a new thread. Oh well, like I said at the beginning, CeMar... It was too easy.

Snook.

[blackfoot]

Becca, thanks for the post. IME, most women are this way.

It takes time and intimacy to bring them out of it.


CEMAR

certain things are NOT compromisable. And believe me, I have lowered my needs to the absolute lowest level possible (probably lower then most men would actually tolerate).

Well apparently with you they are compromisable. You lowered your needs. I have said you cant do that, I have said the mans mental state controls the R. So you have allowed this. Understandably you dont like it, and dont know how to undue it. The easy way out is as your peer group has done. Im personnally tired of hearing about the 'success' of these marital failures, from you. If thats what you want to do then go do it. If its not then quit letting there poison into your brain.

There are success stories here, but you are unwilling to emulate there patterns.

I understand you dont hate your W, and indifference is the opposite of love. When are you going to start loving your W? She is your mirror. She is going to reflect you.
If you were truly confidant you would know your W wants you. She is not LD. I am starting to reallly dislike these identifiers. Some of the HD men here I consider LD.

What happens with sex starved men, they become iritiable and unhappy

You said your W would have sex whenever you wanted. Granted this is different then enthusiastic partners, but your SS state is your choice.


originally, she was VERY physical with me, she was atletic, she was intelligent, she was sexy, and she was very likeable

She still is all these things, just not in response to the current manifested Cemar.