Quote: If he continues to conflict avoid, I can only assume what he says and what emotions he expresses are not genuine.
BZZZZZZZZZ wrong, answer! (as my H would say.) You don't assume that at all....you ask! Otherwise you are avoiding just as much.
Assuming things like that is a dangerous thing to do. The two of you need clarification BIG TIME in your R right now.
I realize you want to see certain things from him...but you are BOTH having to change behaviors remember. If you assume something in a situation like the one you just wrote....then you are conflict avoiding too. You don't get to do that either
One other thing...I noticed you wrote that there's nothing he can say or do to make you "fully" trust him. Why are you setting that as his goal right now? You're rebuilding trust...you don't go from diddly-squat in that department to "fully" trusting him again overnight. What are small things that can begin rebuilding trust?
GEL
BZZZZZZZZZ wrong, answer! (as my H would say.) You don't assume that at all....you ask! Otherwise you are avoiding just as much.
The smackdown from GEL! Hee Hee, you are right. I should not assume. And really I think my semantics were just wrong. I would come right out and ask. In fact, I recall distinctly asking my H in the weeks before he left if he had any thoughts/plans to leave. He answered no. He lied. If I avoid now at all, it may be because I do not trust the answers he gives. I have asked him over and over how could you have lied to me. He says something lame like he was lying to himself and just couldn't face the truth. He wanted to put off the inevitable until the bitter end. Unfortunately, he never even had to get the balls to tell me because I found the bank statement with the withdrawal to the apartment complex. I confronted afterall I wish I had never found that statement to see what he would have done. Oh well. All history now.
Yeah, it's sometimes tough to get the trash from the past out of our heads isn't it....and that, as you arleady know, is what YOU have to work on.
The thing I see you doing though, is potentially putting your H in a position where he can't win with you....when it comes to trust. You may not be ready yet, but at some point you are going to have to decide to take what he says at face-value. Right now I can easily see how when he says something when you confront him you may be thinking "yeah, but you lied to me before." so you don't believe him, you don't trust him. But you aren't (at least as far as I see) giving him something he can really do to rebuild that trust.
I'm going to throw something out there, but it's one of those little things that's niggling away at me.....are you jealous of the fact that he actually left? The reason I ask is because of how you've phrased some things in regards to that "getting out and looking around" stuff like that. I'm just curious....but is it possible you feel like, you did it....I should be able to do it too?
I'm wondering that because if you do have this underlying jealousy...I can easily see how you would subconciously sabotaging your R in order to get "your turn".
I think there's a difference between being a conflict avoider and just not liking an argumentative style of conversing. You and I tend to be more expressive and emotive and...ok, loose cannons, lol, but that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with a more subdued style of interaction, kwim?
If there are things that are bothering him and he's not voicing them and becoming resentful in the process, well yeah THAT is conflict avoidance.
If he's just choosing not to engage in the drama, that's his choice, no matter how maddening it is. (and it IS maddening!)
What seems dishonest from him, these days? Are his actions matching his words?
LFL, lemme ask you this. Since he avoids conflict, I know that it is hard to be inyerface about certain topics because he has become deft at avoiding them and you defeatedly play along with this game. I know it well. My question is this: Does he know how fully pissed off you are about his leaving? Does he know the depth of your anger and hurt? Have you shielded him from it, so as not to trigger his depression again?
I also see this unspoken line running through your threads: He was the one who deserved to be left and yet HE left ME! Whoever coined the phrase Hell hath no fury.. obviously was in direct contact with some ancestor of either yours or mine, eh. I don't blame you one bit for being resentful.
I guess what I am suggesting is that you two do something symoblic to bury once and for all that old marriage.
And, secondly, to establish some ground rules for fighting and DO NOT stray from them. Your H bringing up the separation words, and then retracting them only a day later, is a bunch of bullcrap. He needs to learn how to fight fair and grow up. The next time he says that, I say call his bluff.
For me, resentment always grows SO much stronger when I am mad at not only him, but at my reaction. It almost seems like you're mad at him for how he acts, but also mad at yourself for TAKING it. Own your own reaction and that will lessen the resentment. You are choosing to stay in the marriage and fight for it and not take the easy way out. You are to be commended for your grit and strength. Please don't question yourself--you rock, dear heart!
Gotta go; sorry for the discombobulated message..I'm in a hrry.
Besides the fact that you arent comparing apples to apples, My sitch is done. The 'best man', get it, the best man -from my wedding- Won. Bad joke.
If the place I am in was so great, having lost everything I worked for, I wouldnt be here encouraging others to stick it out. There is nothing here to be jealous of. believe me. I have work, and GAL via more work, and this BB. Sometimes I sleep.
I appreciate your pokes in the eye though, I get to relive my pain and errors.
I don't need the validation but I like it. Give it to your H and he will give it to you. Look at what is working for the ladies here. Everyone needs validation.
I need to stay away from feeling too attractive.
Your smarter then this. Your still insecure in your M. Its naturaly. understandable. Know why it is. You did the 'right thing'. the fight with your H left you shaken? Did you do my recommendation? Communicating with your body is a powerful tool. It speaks directly to the mind. words can be twisted, disbelieved, filtered, etc. Body language. very difficult to ignore.
women like flies to the honey If the women I currently am attracting are flies, then that makes me rotting meat. right now I am ok with that analogy. Soon I will be honey, and will attract bees instead. Much work to do here. Much time needed. I didnt go thru the torture of waiting and giving x a chance for us to have a healthy R to run into some BS make myself feel good and use someone R. Work is my salvation right now. I was whole and unencumbered by bitterness ( that drips from me occasionally) or ghosts when I found x, will be when I allow a next.
M is not about attractiveness but commitment, trust, respect, etc
Beautiful. Well said. on the other hand ------Male female Rs are about attraction. piece of cake. up, down, in out every 2 years. chaos, not true intimacy.
He says he is now committed to me, he respects me,
Seems to me, as usuall, he is giving to you, what he wants FROM you. This is him giving you power. Will you use it to make the R stronger, or punish him?
The thing I see you doing though, is potentially putting your H in a position where he can't win with you....when it comes to trust. You may not be ready yet, but at some point you are going to have to decide to take what he says at face-value. I see your point. I honestly don't know if I will ever get a place of accepting what he says at "face-value". I can learn to live with him, enjoy his company, raise our children, maybe even have great sex. But trust? no. Not the way I think I did before (naively). There is some trust, otherwise, I would not be even attempting any of this. I guess what I am saying, is that I am hyper-sensitive to the state of the M. That can be a good thing though. I have some hope that trust will build.
are you jealous of the fact that he actually left? The reason I ask is because of how you've phrased some things in regards to that "getting out and looking around" stuff like that. I'm just curious....but is it possible you feel like, you did it....I should be able to do it too? I am not jealous of the leaving part (literally out of the house). I do not want that. I would not want to leave my house and kids. But like I was saying to BF, I am jealous of the freedom. In a sense, when he left, he gave that to me as well. I was able to have my nights free while he had the kids and I went out, dated, etc. Even though it is not all wine and roses, it can be a little difficult going back to typical M life again. I remember when he first moved back in, I felt like he was always just around. In the kitchen, at the computer, in front of the tv. I missed my alone time. No more days without the kids. Lol. Come on, there were some pluses to the separation even if I thought it was going to devastate me when it first happened. I guess part of me is angry at him for "letting" me experience that. STupid to blame him for my own reaction, but if he never left.....ignorance is bliss and all.
He has been better. But there have been some recent incidences that had me worried. Don't want to get into all the details but one of his female friends said something about me that I thought was disrespectful and wanted him to address it with her. He put up quite a fuss about not wanting to confront her. It would only cause tension, etc. He hates conlict. This would have been a great way for him to show me that he is working on his conflict avoidance. He says he did end up talking to her and she denied it all of course. The problem is, I just don't trust that he ever even talked to her. See! It's all a vicious circle. The avoidance and the trust. What a mess. You and I tend to be more expressive and emotive and...ok, loose cannons, lol, but that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with a more subdued style of interaction, kwim? Lol. I'm a loose canon for sure. I think I make him nervous sometimes because he never knows what kind of mood I will be in. Poor guy. I do feel bad for him at times. He is definitely less expressive/more subdued. I accept that to a point. Like you said, the problem only comes when he is holding his true thoughts and feelings in and then building resentment against me. With the whole friend incident, he told me he thought I was wrong. Became quite agitated with me. Fine. I would rather have it out with him and have him tell me no then for him to give in and fume inside. I think he did this a lot in the past just to avoid a fight. I think the fact that we are fighting more is actually good for us.
What seems dishonest from him, these days? Are his actions matching his words?
Nothing that I can think of recently. His actions are pretty much matching his words so that is good.
Does he know how fully pissed off you are about his leaving? Does he know the depth of your anger and hurt? YES and YES. I have been going through stages of expressing this to him. Recently, he has been getting the full brunt of it. Probably with the new year here, I just am worn out from dealing with all of these feelings that have been going on since Fall 04 . But stuffing them is no answer. I do not want to conflict avoid with him just so he feels better. He lets me spew my anger when I need to and tells me honestly that it hurts to here all of it but he understands that it is not going to be fixed overnight. His therapist told him it is good for me to get it all out so he seems to be following her advice. I actually feel much better after these incidences. It's very cathartic. I know though, that sooner I later, I need to give it a rest. Haven't reached that stage yet.
I also see this unspoken line running through your threads: He was the one who deserved to be left and yet HE left ME!
WOW HP. That is how I feel. Very observant. I don't think I ever wrote it down like that but it is so true. HE was the one who would never open up, emotionally and sexually. HE was the one with the crazy FOO issues that were constantly getting in the way of our M. Not that I am without blame or issues that's for sure. But he always made sucha point of expressing how he would NEVER turn into his family, that he would NEVER leave like his Dad did, blah blah. I simply believed his words that he expressed over and over throughout are dating and M. I heard that continually since 1992. Talk about F-ing with my mind.
Whoever coined the phrase Hell hath no fury.. obviously was in direct contact with some ancestor of either yours or mine, eh. I don't blame you one bit for being resentful.
Well, thank you for that. Sometimes I wonder if I am too resentful but then I think, no way. He did major damage. If I just swept it under the rug, I would not be honest with myself and the hurt I feel.
I guess what I am suggesting is that you two do something symoblic to bury once and for all that old marriage. I just don't know if that will be helpful other than like you said "symbolically". I need to reach a point of really embracing that before I just go through the motions.
It almost seems like you're mad at him for how he acts, but also mad at yourself for TAKING it. Yes, my own reaction is questionable in my own mind. When I feel committed to working on the M, I question that. And when I feel detached and not committed to the M, I question that as well. The strange part if how I can see-saw back and forth quite easily. I never feel comfortable with either choice. That alone is hard to live with.
Please don't question yourself--you rock, dear heart! Thanks HP! I guess I really am making a decision because we are back together. I think long and hard about it every day. In that sense, I am very committed. Committed to making the right decision, no matter what that ultimately is.
I am curious, and I mean no harm, but with all the talk of all the major damage he did to the relationship, I am wondering how the two of you have processed all the issues he has regarding your physical relationship with another person during the separation.
Unless I have missed something in your situation, your husband has issues with you, and if he is anything like most males, they are major issues.
I don't see how it is that he is the only culpable one in your relationship.
It seems to me that your sense of entitlement is growing to large proportions. I am wondering why.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I wish I had never found that statement to see what he would have done. Oh well. All history now. 
