You know if you can get away for awhile to gain more strength it will be good for you. You can always return if you are not happier. The way I see it is if you stay close by, he will make your life miserable. If you don't go you will always wonder what it would be like with out his antics.
Either way I feel for you and hope for the best possible outcome.
I do intend to move at some point, but at this moment I don't have the money, although I am looking into housing co-ops which I think would be the answer.
At the moment I am mulling over a lot of things and haven't made concrete decisions about anything, but definitely by the Summer I will have decided as DD4 is due to start school then and if I am moving I will do it prior to her starting and start her at the new place.
I wouldn't move back here if I did move, as courts favour stability and if I was moving back and forth, this would be grounds for him to take custody. When I move, it will be permanent, that's why I need to think and make the right choice.
But I agree, if I stay near him he will just carry on doing this. I've put up with it for 4 years so I know that.
He could take off with DD4, as that's how he got DD3, although he stands to lose out a lot more if he does that. He's already been told if he does, there will be a section 37 review (to place the kids in foster care) and they'll give him a penal sentance which means going to prison. He was categorically told that by the judge.
He could lie and maybe pull it off again - I wouldn't put it passed him - but I personally don't think he'd take the risk.
Of course there is an underlying fear there which I know he likes to play on, and I watch his behaviour carefully to find traits of it - for instance, threatening me take me to court, that is a trait similar to when he snatched DD3, so I cut him off and tell him I will cancel his visitation if he threatens me. He *usually* apologises when he's done that, but he seems to need constant reminding to talk to me respectfully and he frequently talks down to me, jokes about me without even realising and then needs cautioning by me that that isn't the way to behave. I get so fed up of his apologies, its like training a toddler.
On the times like now when he's just way over the top, I just go completely dark, as there's no way to deal with that level of disrespect.
I AM scared of him, but I can choose to live in fear or I can get on with my life with DD4 in the best way I can for the circumstances.
He uses court or threat of it as a beating stick and the children are weapons to degrade/criticize me so I just have to distance as much as I can, get on with life and try not to let loneliness get to me too much, which is the hardest thing.
Jo, old prude Lou is telling you to not cave into Andy's offer of drug cakes/smokes/pills or any other form of intoxication/getting high.
Andy can get stupid (slang for druged-up mind) any times he wants to. He and BIL can plot against you, either now or use the fact you used with him some time later. If you think taking depression meds can be used against you in court, you taking the drug cakes in the US carries more weight than perscription drugs taken per Dr's orders.
From reading your story, I think I would have taken D4 and gone home earlier. I might have even asked OW1 or her SO/BF to drive me home. Sometimes it sounds like the more you agree to his requests, the more he manipulates you.
About you Your posts make it sound like are having some mental stability problems. You know fighting with Andy are mostly the cause don't you?
I am glad to hear you and D4 are not gong to spend the New Year with Andy. You don't need the grief Andy makes for you.
BIL is bi? O my gosh. That is not what you need either. I suppose he treats you betrter than Andy does right now but I don't think either one is going to give you anything but trouble in the long run.
It is not proper of me to suggest what you do, but when someone hinted you, D4, and D3 run away from Andy so he can't find you all for a couple of years, that made me say "yes."
I am not suggesting you do it with D3 and D4 but quit going to Andy's house for a long while, for your own mental health.
The court already knows about the dope and don't care, they view it the same as smoking or drink, not bothered as long as isn't excessive. However, anti-D's are for 'mental health' problems so they do look badly on those.
UK law is looser on dope than the US. It's now a class B drug and legal to use it in small quantities. You're just not allowed to grow or deal it.
But I'll admit he does it A LOT more than I thought, like several times a day.
EX-OW1, I wouldn't even look at her never mind ask her for a lift. No way. She does dope too, so does her daughter, daughter's bf (who has a wife, 3 kids and newborn baby he is cheating on). I would never ask those people for anything.
I did say I was going earlier but Andy said I wasn't taking DD4 and I knew it would get violent if I tried to so I had no choi=ce but to stay for Christmas Day.
You've got it the wtong way around with the mental health - the fighting is the END RESULT, not the cause of the depression.
What causes depression in me is him trying to be 'friends' - that just messes with my head, makes me miss him, makes me hope for an R, makes me sexually frustrated, whereas if he is just 'civil', picks up DD4 and drops her off again, I'm not depressed, except he doesn't want to do that, has always insisted on 'friendship' at my expense, not realising it tortures me.
It's over and since it's over I want it to be over and not have 'friendship'. He REFUSES the civilty, insisting it's right to be friends and then gets pissed off when I don't want to, or I feel like I'm getting so close it hurts so sometimes I am glad of a row just to get him to back off. It's close but not close enough if you know what I mean, and that just hurts too much.
A friendship is a half-relationship in my opinion and I just need closure in order to be mentally happy. That's why my mood has been so rotten lately, as he's been trying to force a friendship on me for the last couple of months. I hate it.
There is only one type of relationship I would ever have with him and it isn't that. In light of how he treats me, I don't think I'd even have that now.
If he just backed off and accepted I don't want him in my life in any form without a R, we could do the child contact stuff better and I wouldn't get so upset.
I'm not going back to the house. I didn't want to anyway, he has been PILING pressure on me for months about that. This is the perfect excuse I need not to go there. He says I'm not welcome which is what I want because then he might stop pressuring me.
Yes, BIL is Bi. I've known since we were kids, easy to tell, although he didn't admit it until we were adults. I don't care two hoots. I am sexually open minded. The only time I found it awkward was one time he told me about this guy he was dating and talked about this sexual problem with me in graphic detail and I'd never heard an account of gay sex before so that took a bit of getting used to. He tells me everything about his life.
There is still chemistry between us, but I'm not in love with him like that (I love him, it's more of a 'I've known you forever, you're like my furniture'), kind of thing and 99%of the time we are just friends, then it overlaps into something else. But we both know there is absolutely no future in it (too complicated with him being Andy's brother), and that makes it safe. I think that's WHY we still flirt and why I still talk to him. Not a chance on earth of ever being hurt since it's a non-starter.
So I wouldn't worry about him. He's one of those friends who won't go away. You lose touch for a bit and then he's back. I think we will know each other till we are old, although sometimes it might only be by Christmas card.
I remembered it was, just wanted to say how much a problem drugs and alcohol can be.
Quote: I did say I was going earlier but Andy said I wasn't taking DD4
More controlling from Andy.
Quote: What causes depression in me is him trying to be 'friends' - that just messes with my head, makes me miss him, makes me hope for an R, makes me sexually frustrated,
I might have a difficult time with the "friends" thing too.
Quote: Yes, BIL is Bi. I've known since we were kids, easy to tell, although he didn't admit it until we were adults. I don't care two hoots. I am sexually open minded.
I was just thinking if you had someone in your life you cared about, you don't need to haver to share that person with some other adult or should not have the added "what if's" in your life.
Maybe I am too black/white of a thinker. I never dated two girls at the same time! I can imagine being with a "Bi" person one would always wonder if you and OP are happy with each other exclusively.
Don't worry Lou, I am not romantically involved with BIL, that one time was a definite MISTAKE and was only because I was traumatised and wanted someone to hug me and it went a bit too far. Men don't generally cuddle without expecting full sex, unless they are watching a film when they cuddle you or they've got flu, so I should have just kept my hands to myself
I don't have anyone that cares about me, not in that way. Haven't had since I was 24 so I feel as if I've been single forever and there have been so many problems in my life that there isn't a hint of a man on the horizon, no hint of vague interest from anyone.
I personally have liked a couple of men since the split, but they had no idea and the feeling was not mutual.
Everyone I like is either married, foreign (therefore living miles away), or just doesn't notice I am alive. So I'm just thinking I will ever have a R - I'm just trying to cope with the fallout from the last one.
Quote: that one time was a definite MISTAKE and was only because I was traumatised and wanted someone to hug me
I understand the "wanted someone to hug me" part too well.
Quote: Men don't generally cuddle without expecting sex
Jo, I am shocked. Just kidding.
Quote: or they've got flu
When I had the flu BB could have put a sheet over me and did me anyway, but I did not want to make her sick so did not go for it. ML always makes me sleep better and that is what a person needs to recover faster. Too bad the flu is easily transmitted.
One woman that is high drive said she and her lover both had asthma and had to use their inhailers during sex when they were really going at it. I can just imagine about being ready to O and grabbing the inhailers to finish Oing. A panic and a rush/high at the same time. No smoking after sex, just using the inhailers.
Quote: I'm just trying to cope with the fallout from the last one.
Well, one big concept of Db'ing is fix as many things about you in the old relationship as you can. If you don't, some of the problems will be in the next R.
Jo. If the R with Andy is broken, what part can you fix, not for Andy, but for you to grow, be less stressed, less depressed, and learn how to not get sucked into his $hip?
Jo, some where there is a thread that asks, would you DB again or what part of DBing worked for you. If I can find it I will post a link. It is a good read and you might get something from it to use on your own. I did a search but did not fine the thread. 2:45 AM so I have to quit.
The really awful thing about BIL was when it got heavy, I said to him he could stop now or if we continued, it would not mean a R, just a casual comfort F, so to speak, and he agreed. He said he wanted to go further and he knew they're be no R, so we did and then afterwards he started acting like my partner, y'know, trying to hold my hand all the time, saying he wanted to come over at weekends and after work to see me. He clearly expected more sex and I found myself in a situation where I was physically pushing him away, feeling angry because the sex didn't mean a R.
So I repeated what I said before and he acted all hurt. It's funny because men often want casual sex or brag about having it with no strings but if a woman does the same to a man, he absolutely HATES it. I know as BIL was like that, and 2 other men I slept with. One was obessively calling me even though I told him I'd call if I wanted to meet again - I had to send him a strong email telling him to back off, so that was bad. The other one agreed it was just casual and in fact stressed it was casual, and then the sex made him fall in love with me and before I knew it, I was getting marriage proposals. He even said ILY during sex once and I just stopped. I couldn't put up with that, those weren't my terms. So he went to the pub and got drunk and then rounded on me, drunk, about how I didn't love him.
I said you know I don't, you always knew that and you said this was casual when we met. I had your agreement and then you start getting all emotional. So I stopped seeing him after that because he always expected more and that really pissed me off because I thought it was only women who were emotional about sex and it turned out that men can't handle it when a woman just wants her physical needs met.
I gave it up in April 04 after the court stuff finished because they were too complicated, and decided to save myself for my future husband. Celibacy is stressful, but not as stressful as those men, LOL.
Sex during flu: I would do it if it was me with the flu because in fact I was always in the mood when ill. Andy used to comment, 'every time you're ill, you want sex.' I don't know why, maybe it's the endorphins it releases which would speed the recovery process.
Also when I had headaches/migraine, sex would ease it slightly.
The only times I said no was with morning sickness (which is ALL DAY, not just morning) and if he so much as looked at me then I would want to batter him over the head with my bottle of pre-natal vitamins. Luckily that usually stopped by week 12.
He of course, wouldn't touch me if he had flu, just groaned ocassionally for me to fetch him water. LOL.
He is asthmatic too but that never interfered with sex. When we first moved in together, we lived in a town house right next to the motorway and there were always traffic fumes so he seemed to be on the ventolin all the time.
Then we moved to that cottage I told you about, and I discovered that dairy products can aggravate asthma, so I reduced his cheese intake and replaced milk with soy milk and he learnt this thing called 'Conscious Breathing' - so what with the changed diet and the less polluted air and his breathing exercises, he was able to wean himself off ventolin altogether.
I can't remember it ever interfering with 'O'
What part of the R can I fix? I don't know, anymore, Lou. I'm not sure I can. I think it might be too damaged. There is no trust there whatsoever and no respect so I've nothing to work with.
If he's nice to me I think it's put on either because he wants DD4, wants to control me through the others or because he hasn't had sex for a while. These estimations usually turn out to be true. Without genuineness I don't think there is any part of it that can be fixed, and as for friendship, I don't want that so I wouldn't try.
I feel I have already worked through WHY we split and addressed those issues for myself. It's the lack of trust about the break up which is likely to cause problems in a future R. He said he loved me, then that wasn't true, so any man that says ILY, I'm not going to believe.
He cheapened sex for me. Prior to this whole mess, I thought sex and love were the same thing and you sleep with someone because you love them. Then I found out from him that he could take from my body without loving me and the whole concept of sex and romance went out the window.
I think if I had a SL with anyone else, I'd always be thinking, is this love or just because he wants sex? It's partly why I had a few months of sleeping around. I was so angry that Andy could do that, I thought I'd give men a taste of their own medicine.
If I could change anything about DB'ing, I would not have continued sleeping with him. Michele says continue the physical intimacy, I don't agree - it only makes men disrespect you for 'giving out' when you're separated and it made Andy take me for granted - 'Oh, I can do whatever I like to her because she'll still be there if I want.' There are no conseqences for the WAS if the sex continues.
Also, I would have employed the techniques a year earlier instead of sinking into depression - he might not have left then, and when he took the kids I shouldn't have fought for them. My mother instinct kicked in. I had no chance and could have saved myself the agony of 2 and a half years in court. They might all have come back if I hadn't fought back, and the emotional scars from that are going to make it difficult with a new man. If I want another baby, there's always go to be this fear, will new partner take the baby one day etc etc. What I should have done is let him leave with the others, not tell him I was pregnant with DD4, and just move. Then he would have never known she existed and we wouldn't have to see each other.
What did work was 180 and going dark. Very effective techniques. I'd definitely use 180 in a future R, and if I split up again, I'd go dark instead of getting depressed, and I wouldn't have R talks or beg him to stay like I did with Andy. That would heighten the chance of reconciliation.
Well guys, I thought I'd give a mini update before next year.
Things have been peaceful here since I came back from Andy's and I haven't been upset at all. I had several 'withheld number' calls (usually Andy) so I've not been answering my landline. Luckily my charity is not open this time of year because that would force me to answer.
It started snowing on Boxing Day and snowed for 4 days. I can't walk at all in snow so that meant I've been house-bound for most of it. I went to a friend the day before yesterday for a meal and some beer which was nice and I told her and her husband about my awful Christmas.
Her husband said that if people are having large amounts of dope, it can make you irritable when you don't have it. He says that Andy's aggression is probably that. I saw elements of this in the M. One time we had a conference in London and he'd been smoking dope all night and he then drove us under the influence (I was 22 at the time and didn't realise you're not supposed to drive after having it, I thought that was just alcohol) and I remember on the journey he was SO snappy with me. I kept saying 'stop snapping', it was like he was gunning for a fight.
I made him stop smoking it because he used to have this really lovely personality, kind, easy going etc.
Then he told me a few months ago that he started having it again several months before 'the bomb'.
That would make perfect sense to me. We had this wonderful M most of the time, so that would account for the 'out of the blue' way he left. If it does make you aggressive, that would also explain why he hit me and why he is always on, off, on, off and why he loves me one day and then doesn't the next.
Maybe it affects memory? Does anyone know if excessive use of dope can affect memory? Maybe he just can't remember what he does, hence the behaviour.
Certainly, when he fed me that dope cake, it made me so sleepy I couldn't move off the sofa to turn off the TV. That explains to me why he doesn't get out of bed until 10 or 11am every morning. He probably CAN'T.
And he has quite a lot of drug from what I've seen. He has several cigarettes of it in the evening, every evening, and sometimes 1 while he's cooking the tea, because he's smoked it in the kitchen when DD1 has been in there talking to him.
Then if EX-OW1 comes over (which she has every time I've been there), he will drink Bailey's and coffee and smoke it with her, and that's like the middle of the afternoon.
Then he has these cakes with dope in them that he eats as well as the cigarettes. I'm sure all that would be enough to affect judgement.
Does anyone on here know anything about soft drugs? Because I might be barking up the wrong tree.
But anyway, my friend's husband gave me something to think about.
The snow has finally cleared today and I'm going to my friend's to see in the New Year. We're staying overnight and having dinner there tomorrow.
That is not what you need either. I suppose he treats you betrter than Andy does right now but I don't think either one is going to give you anything but trouble in the long run.
Just kidding. 