Go to his house for Xmas. Be fun, be lively, be "you". This is for your girls and not him. They are excited about you being with them. This is new to them. Treat him as you would a casual friend. Don't let it go further than that, no matter what.
You need to distance yourself from him, but not your girls. You are doing this to yourself!!!! He's trying to make a "friendly" R work for the kids. This is to your advantage. Think of it in this way only and don't let him get to you, no matter what.
Jo, I know this is difficult for you, but he really seems to be trying to let you be a part of their life lately. He doesn't have to be your H for this to work. Lots of us have to do it this way also. You're fighting it. In your eyes, it's all or nothing. This is ridiculous. Be their mother, with no connection to Andy other than he being the sperm donor. It's the way most divorced people work it out, unfortunately.
I can't Jill. He's like this every Christmas and every Christmas I do my damnest to escape, I usually manage to, but didn't have the money this year.
It isn't in my nature to 'fake it' - even for the kids. He said it himself, he's only invited me there because 'it's the right thing to do' - not because he actually wants me there at Christmas.
I can't go where I'm not welcome. I am SO SO unhappy and being in that house makes me worse. My main priority is not my kids, it's keeping this depression at bay and just at the moment my usual coping mechanisms aren't working. My apetite is gone, has been for weeks, my sleep pattern is completely screwed, I have nightmares all the time (last night was about execution).
As a person who fought for 2 years to get rid of depression, I don't want to go back there, anything but that.
And it isn't just him. His brother will be there (ex number 2). They are planning on getting drunk and intend to leave me stranded at the house for 3 days - this isn't a day, it's 3 days. When they get drunk they both get nasty and pick on me. Andy is worse when his brother is there to watch it.
Andy told me yesterday that he expects me to sleep on the sofa so his brother can sleep in the bed (Andy will sleep on the floor), now if these men were in anyway gentlemen, they would both share the living room (there are 2 sofas) and let me have the bedroom.
I am expected to cook the Christmas Dinner for 7 people - I am the one who bought ALL the food for the event, and yet he won't even give up his room while I'm there. I DON'T want to wake up on Christmas morning, on the sofa. I told him he was treating me like a dog. He denied this.
I can't enjoy this and I don't even see why I should fake this for the girls. Why should every thing I do be an act? There's no point having a family if it isn't real. I want a genuine family where I can be me and not act and all I'm doing is *pretending* for them. After 4 years I'm tired of pretending. Right now I'm so sick of everything I don't care if I do walk away from them, I'm just sick to my senses of this family. Sick to death.
I fell in love with the first person who showed me any care. I got pregnant too young before I could handle it, I didn't anticipate him ever leaving. I made a mistake. I was a stupid, love sick teenager who rushed at everything and I made a mistake. I have tried to take my responsibility for that, I fought for my kids for 2 years, I did my visitation, I DB'ed my butt off with him and them, but none of it ever works.
I know that the only certainty in life is that I WILL be disappointed by them, the only question is how often and how much.
I'm too young to do D drama. I don't want to do anymore visitation. My parents did that when they split and they fought like me and Andy. Then he left because he couldn't make it work. I saw him twice in the 4 years before he died.
I love my father, but I was relieved. Leaving me and going back to Greece was the best thing he could have done for me. He showed me real love by doing that, because there was peace in my family after that. I didn't have to watch them fighting, I didn't have to watch my mother crying, I wasn't the centre of a visitation dispute.
All I felt when he left was relief and even when he died, I still thought I would not change that. He showed me unconditional love by giving up his rights to me to let peace into my life.
This has massively coloured how I think about my kids and as the non-custodial parent, I still believe the only way my kids and I will ever be happy is if I leave. I was happy when my dad left me. I loved him more for it because he put me first, rather than 'his' visitation.
I just feel the biggest gift I can give my kids is not to be there anymore.
Quote: I love my father, but I was relieved. Leaving me and going back to Greece was the best thing he could have done for me. He showed me real love by doing that, because there was peace in my family after that. I didn't have to watch them fighting, I didn't have to watch my mother crying, I wasn't the centre of a visitation dispute.
I show mine by being there for them and not fighting with my ex. It takes two to fight. I'm around my first XW quite a bit attending the same events. They are just another person. You don't have to talk to them or socialize. I'm sorry, but I think that it doesn't have to resort to running away to make it work, but there are some situations that are worse than others.
I don't blame you for not doing the XMas. I don't either, but at least we alternate. You don't have that luxury. Perhaps you could say you are no longer comfortable doing the family Xmas and would prefer to do your Christmas with just your girls and not him. If he's so big on "family", he should be willing to let you have them for part of Xmas break without him being part of the package deal. Just tell him so...at least in an e-mail.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
You parted on good terms with your 1st ex-wife, it isn't even a comparison.
I lost ALL my family including my mother through this D, we had 2 and a half years taken up in court. It has destroyed my self-esteem.
It isn't all his fault. I'm not saying that. I don't think he's a horrible person, I'm not saying that - just that too much has happened for me to be around him like you are with 1st XW. My baby died because of these circumstances. He'd have been 2 years old this Boxing Day. Andy lives with it by saying it was 'meant to be' - but as the person who instigated this death, I cannot feel the same.
I can't do alternate Christmases because that means parting with DD4 and being TOTALLY ALONE one year out of every 2. I can't. If I had someone else who would have me for that time, or a group of people to help me through the season, I would do it, but my mood would just crash completely if I was totally alone. So we never do alternate Christmases. He has 3 of my daughters, his mother, his step-father, his brother and his OW friends so I think it's pretty selfish of him to expect me to give up the only relative I have to celebrate Christmas with. I have already told him I'd never do that. He'd have to take me to court and force me, and even then I'd say no.
I usually go away on holiday with her. This is the best solution in my opinion, and I've learnt my lesson this time to plan better financially for next year. In fact, I'm booking next Christmas by March if I can.
I can't send him emails as I am blocked on his email address. He is blocked on mine. I would never unblock him as he either uses it to entice me or the opposite, to dump me. I don't accept any communication by writing anymore, especially as written word can be used in court.
I won't open letters by him in case they are upsetting so he never writes anymore, thank God.
That means the main way we communicate is via phone or sometimes text, and in person. I try not to call and generally don't unless I am cancelling/changing an arrangement.
It goes deeper than simply not wanting to do Christmases with him (I don't normally anyway) - I am burnt out with the whole family and I don't want to do any of it anymore. As I said, since my kids were 3, 4 and 5 I have not raised them, we've done nothing but fight over them and our general R.
I have no bond with the older ones that I can speak of, too many years, too many things said, too much space has elapsed between him leaving with them and now. I don't think they love me. I'm not sure what I feel for them. I used to cry for them all the time. I stopped doing that ages ago. I feel this kind of 'I don't give a damn' attitude now, which is scary.
There is no intimacy, we never hug, kiss etc and ocassionally if they kiss me I will kiss back but I have to make myself do it. It isn't automatic anymore.
Every time they are here it's all staged like with Andy, I am DB'ing with them. Sometimes I think we have had a success, a breakthrough and then Andy is on the phone, complaining that DD1 has been bad mouthing me to him and what is going on? etc etc. Then I end up in tears thinking she doesn't want an R with me anyway so why bother?
I am sick of trying with these people and all because I gave birth to them. I feel as if I have a noose round my neck.
I just want a different life where I don't have to think about it anymore. I am too tired.
Things haven't always been rosey with my first XW. We've had tons of fights and our time in court. She's criticized my childrearing. But know what? I don't give a rip what she has to say about me or my parenting. And we don't hang out together...not like you do with Andy. I don't come in her house, sit down, and have tea. I come to the door and pick up the kids. I say "Hi" at the swim meets and sit apart from her. I exchange information about the kids as concisely as possible and get off the phone. We have a "tolerance" of each other and that's all I want. I just want to be able to see my kids and nothing more.
Isn't there some kind of Christmas break that the kids have? I'm not saying go all the break without seeing them, just split the holiday season in half and have the kids for half and him the other half. This year Xmas, next year New Years?
But I hear you. You got a lot of bad memories built up. But you need to think solutions, not problems, otherwise I don't see how you'll ever be free of Andy or able to start over. When everyone suggests something you say why it isn't possible or how there would be huge obstacles. It sounds difficult, but you have a closing window of opportunity to have a relationship with your kids. You will always be their mom and have a connection. My first XW saw her dad very very infrequently, far less than you, essentially nonexistent, until she was almost out of high school, but despite his absence from her life continued to want to be part of his life.
This is just my opinion, but I think the main stumbling block is still wanting to have a relationship with Andy. Being around him gives you expectations that you'll be treated like his wife. You get upset about other women because you still want to be his only woman. If you got to the point you didn't care about him, maybe didn't even like him, you wouldn't care who he was with. You might even prefer it because he might not be so stingy with the kids. I think life would be easier for you with him completely out of the picture. Can't you just say to him, "I want to see the kids for a day or two during the Christmas break at my place without you present. I just don't think we should do this pretend family and it doesn't really help me foster a better relationship with the kids. If you are so interest in 'doing the right thing' then don't include yourself in my plans." That would be like my first X saying "sure you can have the kids, just come over here in my presence where you are uncomfortable and see them." It's B.S.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
We talked for a long time. He said how he wanted Christmas to be and that he was doing it so we could 'share Christmases' in future, i.e, him have DD4 sometimes, if we are friends.
Even if we were friends I'd never do that. She's the only family I have. I basically told him similar to what I said in above post re alternate Christmases and said he was selfish to expect me to sit on my own with no one and that I would never visit his home or take his 'friendship' at face value when he always has manipulative motives.
I said I didn't want a friendship with him and explained why. I then said he was selfish to expect me to and if he genuinely cared about me, he'd let me go completely, including with the girls, and let me form another life without him.
For the first time ever, he agreed with me and said that if contact with him and them was causing me so much pain, it wasn't worth it. He said if I couldn't be happy like this then the best thing would be to cut them out and 'get on with it' and he said he thought it was just 'messing with their heads' anyway and that he had 'tried' for ages on my R with them and it didn't work, that he felt we were all moving apart anyway.
I said yes we were, and that he never let me be part of their lives anyway, apart from on birthdays and Christmas, so what was the point?
I then asked him why he had children, what was his reason? He said because he was in love and wanted babies with the woman he was in love with. I said no, forget me, there must be another reason apart from just me. He said people just want them, don't they? I don't understand the convo.
I said I had kids to watch them grow, to see the first tooth fall out, to pin their pictures to the fridge, to be there when my DD got her first period - but you can't do any of that has non-custodial mother. My reason for having them is gone. I can't watch them grow. They pin their pictures to HIS fridge and when my DD lost her first baby tooth, he didn't tell me. I can't be the mother I wanted to be. No Earth mother, me.
I told him all this and he said 'If that's the case and you really can't be happy like this, I think you should leave them. It only causes them confusion like this, and there's no sense if you feel you can't have a new life like this.'
I said okay.
Then I put the phone down on him. He has given me permission to walk away. That makes it easier on the guilt complex.
I cried all afternoon. My newsletters arrived today and I'm supposed to be working. I have STACKS of work to do, but I couldn't work. They are still sitting there.
I am now planning a quiet Christmas, just me and DD4 and lots of DVD's we've never seen. We will watch Christmas movies for the day.
I am truly done with everything else.
I am making enquiries and if any of them are successful I will put notice on this house.
I think a move and a new start elsewhere is in order now. I need a better 2006.
Quote: I said I had kids to watch them grow, to see the first tooth fall out, to pin their pictures to the fridge, to be there when my DD got her first period - but you can't do any of that has non-custodial mother. My reason for having them is gone. I can't watch them grow. They pin their pictures to HIS fridge and when my DD lost her first baby tooth, he didn't tell me. I can't be the mother I wanted to be. No Earth mother, me.
I told him all this and he said 'If that's the case and you really can't be happy like this, I think you should leave them. It only causes them confusion like this, and there's no sense if you feel you can't have a new life like this.'
I said okay.
I shouldn't even bother posting, but I keep hoping. It seems to me that you see two solutions: Being a whole family again or never seeing any of them again. It's as though Andy and the girls are conjoined. I just don't understand why they come as a set, even in your mind. Can't you say..."I want to see them, but without you and without your criticisms. Everyone parents a little different and let me do it without your comments. You know Andy you aren't the worlds best parent." I personally think he sucks as one.
Guess what Jo? I've got pictures on my frig. I've seen their teeth fall out. My XW doesn't corner the market on memories with my kids because she's the custodial parent. This is the life of divorced people. They miss some of the stuff and make memories that don't include the XS.
I really feel for you. I do sympathize and I sympathize with your daughters. I do think they have their heads messed with because you and Andy cannot find a way to coparent. You are both too stubborn to look into solutions. But I'm done posting. Sometimes it doesn't help to say anything. People will go down cheeseless tunnels even when they are told there is no cheese there.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
Yes I do still have feelings for him, but then I always will. He is and will be important to me, even if it's just a memory. He is father of my children. That means even if I re-married, he would still rank highly, or higher than new H. That is why I won't consider a new R, it's not fair to OM.
But to be fair, he hasn't made it easy for me to forget him, all these ILY's etc etc, saying we're back on and then not. That's hard to resist when you still love someone, and has meant I can't move on. I truly feel it'll always be this way with me and him and my only option for happiness is to walk away completely.
He insists upon cups of tea and 'friendliness' when he's not pushing for more. He has said repeatedly for 4 years he wants to be friends, but I don't, never have. It just messes with my head. So he says if he can't be friends he'll have to hate me, and the nastiest starts up. Plenty of ex's aren't friends so I don't know why he has had such trouble accepting this. Maybe he has now with this latest phone convo.
The girls don't have 'holidays' - he home eds them, they break when he says and not when he says too. I could ask to have them but this just f**ks with my head. Something always goes wrong even if he's not there.
You say the window of opportunity is closing. From where I'm looking it's already closed. I want to leave.
My plan for my future is to find a housing co-op where I will live with other people (I'm depressed on my own), try to sort out this depression with help and community from others, move there and re-organise Andy's visitation so he has DD4 on the holidays, aside from Christmas, and the rest of the time I have her.
That way he'd only have to come round like 6 or 7 times a year, I'd live miles away so he couldn't just pop by and I could get on with my life, make new friends, be happy etc.
Your plan is a start. Perhaps the best way to begin is to get him out of your life completely so you quit feeling like there can't be anyone else because he's so important. I used to feel that way about my first wife, that I'd always have feelings for her. I don't think it's possible to know that until you let them go completely. Now I know that I wouldn't always have feelings for her. Maybe it's just me, but my XW never meant more to me than my second wife just because she had mother to my kids status. All that means is I have to see her more often than I otherwise would.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
I kind of felt quite a while ago that our friendship was stopped because you couldn't relate or didn't agree with my decisions.
I know that most people will disagree with my choice over the girls, but then they're not me and they haven't lived my life. I am looking out for me because having no extended family, if I don't look out for me, no one else will.
I think that moving away is my best option for my sanity, and in the long term, the girls, at least there would be peace.
This is a very emotive subject, and I suspect that most if not all people will not post any longer, but I still have to look after me.
However, I wanted you to know that I appreciated your friendship over the past few months and wish you well.
