Frank, I appreciate your insights...good stuff...I love the way you suggest to look at it like a toy...makes me a little naucous thinking of it like a vibrator w/o battery but I get the message.
But I have stopped thinking who is better than who, since I'm the better man - I don't have affairs with married women.
I get his, but I'm asking myself the same question about W...Is she good enough for me? I didn't/wouldn't have an A on her so maybe I should force her into the OM arms by giving an ultimatum...they obviously deserve each other...and I deserve to be happy...somekind of sick revenge knowing that I could force her into a R with OM when she has said that he's not long term...make her eat her own words.
Frank brought up an interesting point...you can call it a Vibrator, I call it a bandaid for the underlying issue. It's up to you to find that underlying issue and work on it.
Women generally start EAs and PAs based on emotional needs. I was a WAW at one time...being threatened by the om is a waste of time...however, I think it's always nice to get to know the enemy...okay enemy is a strong word...but what is it that your Ws are seeing in this man? What is it that he is giving her, that she wasn't getting from you? Same thing with women, dealing with the ow. Men and women have basic needs...however they are different.
When I was a WAW, I had an EA towards the end of the marriage. He was my safety zone to express how I really felt. He worked for my exH and I and he was first witness to the way that my ex and I interacted. It was because of my R with him that I was able to grow as a person and find my way in the world without my H...and for the record, he was 13yrs younger. We are still extremly close friends, I even helped him start a business two years ago.
Frank knows when his marriage took a dive and he's working feverishly on that. He's on a tough road but he knows this. He also knows the om is nothing, a vibrator, a bandaid...but his wife is still seeking the om as a comfort zone. He has work ahead of him to turn this all around...perhaps the other night will prove to be a turning point for them both. I do hope so.
Is your W good enough for you? I throw the question back at you...are you good enough? Are you strong enough to be her man (sorry, that's my song, had to throw it in there.)? It's always easy to say that we wouldn't have an A, but truth be told, we don't know...there are no guarantees in life. You don't know...I read posts from many of the men currently on here and I see them heading for an A themselves...if they don't stop and work on themselves first. It's hard work, sometimes it's easier to walk away and start over.
Drop the revenge thought, that's your heart breaking and you know it Vince...work on yourself...get out there, GAL, make new friends...become the strong man that your W needs...and even if you decide not to take her back one day...and least you have learned the skills for a new relationship. Let go of the pain, bitterness...it's not healthy...you're too good to get caught up in that.
Frank, Our WAW's are acting 17 again. He's a playtoy, nothing more. She basically confirmed this. That means his days with her will end eventually when she gets tired of running from her life, or putting up with HIS. Then she will either face life with you or keep running.
so what do you think happens when faced with a decision of stay with H or stay with toy who has no long term implications (supposedly)
if she is acting like a child (which she is), wouldn't she choose the one with the long term possibilities? I know she doesn't want to lead the dating/single life...the decision that I think she faces is me and some work ahead of her to repair M or stay with OM and she knows that it will eventually end and then she WILL be in the dating/single scene but time will have passed and Vince will be long gone.
so what do you think happens when faced with a decision of stay with H or stay with toy who has no long term implications (supposedly)
if she is acting like a child (which she is), wouldn't she choose the one with the long term possibilities? I know she doesn't want to lead the dating/single life...the decision that I think she faces is me and some work ahead of her to repair M or stay with OM and she knows that it will eventually end and then she WILL be in the dating/single scene but time will have passed and Vince will be long gone.
She goes for the option where she is treated with love, respect and appreciation. This may be with H, om, someone else, or she finds that she best fulfills her own needs.
When I left, I gave my H, every chance to wake up. I learned how to speak without fear of retribution because I had already left, I knew I was going to be okay whether or not we worked things out. When he showed time after time that he was not capable of being there I closed the door.
From my experience, yes I would have liked to work things out with my H, back then. We had a child, we had built a life together, an extremely successful business...but in the end, decided that it wasn't worth it, if he couldn't put back into the M. For the record, I did not leave him for the guy that I had the EA with, I left him for me...I left him for my daughter. I also wouldn't say that I acted like a child at all. But again, my M had many issues including his controlling factor (so bad that let's just say I didn't even get my drivers license until we separated and we lived in the country, convenient eh?), his numerous As through the years, as well as his being a workaholic and in my behalf, I was a conflict avoider (big time), no self-esteem, no friends other than his business partner and his W, no outside life, everything focused on him and building up his business...his business partner came before his family. The turning point in our M came when I started my own business, and discovered there was a whole nother world out there. I travelled to escape. Met new friends, got a life, built a name for myself and then found myself crying everytime the plane landed in Dallas.
but what is it that your Ws are seeing in this man? What is it that he is giving her, that she wasn't getting from you?
Excellent point...my thoughts are that is something that I am going to address on Thur MC...I need to know even if things don't work out...I need to know for future R.
It was because of my R with him that I was able to grow as a person and find my way in the world without my H..
that is what I'm afraid of...I want her to grow as a person and be happy...I just don't want the "band aid" to become permanant skin because it's never taken off.
Let go of the pain, bitterness...it's not healthy...you're too good to get caught up in that.
I'm better than last night, but still a little bitter...yesterday really caught me off guard...i thought we were on the "road"...a long bumpy road, but a road no less and now I feel like we are back to square one.
It won't hurt to ask these questions Vince. But be prepared that she may either not know at the time what she's getting from him or she may not be comfortable in sharing that with you. Give it time, don't push...again, perhaps bring it up in your individual session to get a feel of what your T is thinking.
Just remember she is attending MC with you so there is a great deal to be said for that. I went to MC alone because he would not go. I went to 4 DIFFERENT Christian based counselors...why 4 because I was waiting for one of them to give me hope that he was able to be the loving man that I needed...and each one of them told me the SAME thing, some people are not capable of loving anyone but themselves. They cannot give because it takes away from their self love. I learned about Narcissism. Read it sometime, that is my exH. The world does and always will revolve around him.
I highly doubt that he will become the permanent fix for her. It's a temporary fix for whatever is ailing her heart. What you want to do is to provide the safe place for her to come back to...to your heart...not push her out in the world again, without you. I didn't want to do that...but I did and now in hindsight, it was truly the best thing for me to do...but again, my exH was not like you.
I know you were off yesterday...that's why I was writing you so much to bring you back to center...there are a few on here that GET IT, and some that never will, they will just continue to chase their tail in the cheeseless tunnel. They will never face their greatest fear, themselves...it's easier to put all the blame on the WAS instead of the LBS role on the demise of the R.
Once again Sassy says all that needs to be said. All the things mentioned in her posts are in line with EVERY article on affairs, divorces and mid life crisis I have read. Re-read them and think about what it means... there's no magic at all - it is what it is. You aren't the first person whose W has done this, and you won't be the last. There are documented stages in the process by many authors of articles an books so, gee whiz, I guess there must be SOMETHING to all the stuff you read from people on this board
Vince, YOU have to stop thinking about 'what if' all the time. Unless you think 'What if she stays nuts? What will my new life look like after I am no longer DEPENDENT on her for my self esteem? What kind of woman would I like to be with?"
For ME I actually make sure I do NOT see my wife as much as I could, living in the same house as we do. When I DO see her I always smile one of my biggest "dont you just love me!" smiles, maybe say hello,but ONLY talk when she starts a conversation. And as soon as it gets to a lull in the conversation I excuse myself and leave.
Why? Because that give ME the chance to NOT say or do something stupid out of my NEEDYNESS. And, when she doesn't say or do what I want her to say or do I don't prolong the pain on me by hanging around trying to get her to say or do what I want. I can't control her.
When she does say or do things I really like or we have a nice few hours together with the kids I relish it. Then I remember that she is still in HER world and thank God for the good experience and go back to practicing 'letting go' again. Yes, it sucks but it's good for ME.
My point is that I can NOT be seen as NEEDY or PURSUING and PURSUING is as SIMPLE as 'hanging around her' to get a chance to talk about anything just so I can feel close to her. Bzzzzztt!
We do a lot better when I stay backed off and only discuss things SHE wants to talk about.
Initially I asked her all about OM. Needed to know the 'competition', what was she 'feeling', etc. I haven't spoken to her on that topic for a month now, and I don't care to. Affairs take months to burn out - and they will.
Quote: but what is it that your Ws are seeing in this man? What is it that he is giving her, that she wasn't getting from you?
Excellent point...my thoughts are that is something that I am going to address on Thur MC...I need to know even if things don't work out...I need to know for future R.
Make sure you don't ask directly, like 'So what does OM have that I didn't have?' no no no. Ask 'what was missing from our relationship that was ost important to you?"
Quote: It was because of my R with him that I was able to grow as a person and find my way in the world without my H..
that is what I'm afraid of...I want her to grow as a person and be happy...I just don't want the "band aid" to become permanant skin because it's never taken off.
No you don't want the bandaid to become permanent. But worrying about it won't help and if you think it will, your FEELINGS (fear, uncertainty, doubt) will affect your ACTIONS (talking about OM, pursuing, saying ILY) all of which will guarantee that even when OM fades away it won't be YOU that will attract her. Knock it off!
Quote: Let go of the pain, bitterness...it's not healthy...you're too good to get caught up in that.
I'm better than last night, but still a little bitter...yesterday really caught me off guard...i thought we were on the "road"...a long bumpy road, but a road no less and now I feel like we are back to square one.
Ever do any 4 wheeling? On some roads you get stuck for a little while in the mud or sand. Others you find out part way the stream is too deep to cross so you have to go back a little and find a better crossing.
You're where most of us were in the first months. I won't say I NEVER feel the way you are right now. I feel it every day. But I also stop and think that if it was REALLY over W wouldn't even talk to me except to arrange visits with kids or other 'co-parenting' stuff. I guarantee you if I kept talking about OM directly she would NEVER talk to me.
I have a lot of hope that he is starting to lose his shine to her. But that's all it is - hope. I always keep the thought in my mind that nothing has changed with OM, not moved forward or backward. BUT I know I have moved forward, and that is something I can control.
And if you can see a doctor, get anti depressants / anti anxiety meds if you can. They help a lot.
Just had my IC appt...she says that she thinks it would be good in a non-controling way to tell her that the pain would b too great to continue the MC if she insist on continueing the A...C says that IF OM is not a "factor" than there shouldn't be much of a decesion...
I know this is going against the DB philo...I don't know what to do...C says that I am no different than OM in not having W make any decesions...she says W needs to make up her mind and quit trying to have her cake and eat it too...now keep in mind she knows W from IC also so maybe she has some insights?
Told the IC about "waiting out the A" she does not agree with that philo...she says that it sounds like a strategy and people need to do whats in the best interest for themselves and not to follow a boiler plate strategy.
Went into IC session thinking I would come out with all the answers and I came out with a whole lot more questions.
Does anyolne here feel like I'm over reacting to her having OM stay the night after a great Marriage session?
Well, maybe you needn't over react, maybe it's more a matter of accepting that something's rotten in the state of Denmark, you know?
Doesn't this tell me something that she would do this on the same night of our MC?
Yep.
she must have me and MC fooled huh?
I dunno. She might be hiding stuff from her counselor. You know, just cause she's seeing a counselor doesn't automatically stop the A. But continuing the A while going to MC sure indicates that the counseling may prove ineffective.
I get the sense though that your C does see it, and is trying to get you to move push to shove, recognizing that this is not going to go anywhere you'd like it to right now.
while admittedly there is nothing more I would like than to find the one man that I will spend the rest of my days with... but I've been fortunate to have experienced it a few times in my life
Geez, how many men do you have that you're spending the rest of your life with, anyway?
