Quote: Try to remember that your W is now an alien. She is not herself. She is in a fog. That's why she is so oblivious to the damage all around her.
I just find it so amazing. On our walk she had some moments of real emotion about the situation but when it COUNTS during the actual emotional situations with the girls she acts as if everything is OK. I'm sure if I asked her she would say she is 'trying to put up a positive front for the girls sake'.
I am just trying to figure out if I should be basically blowing her off and getting into the mode of caring for the girls by talking to them in front of her and basically adopting the attitude that she is leaving, peroid.
There is so much hurt she can continue to drag up when we talk, all of it my fault. I mean, our life was tough, I was depressed and drinking and she was afraid for me and didn't know what to do. ANYTHING I bring up as a positive experience she can find something that made it negative. I just don't see any way to get beyond that and DB our way back into a marriage when right now she gets all her 'love feelings' from elsewhere.
Quote: This sounds like it was rehearsed. Does she really mean it? Frank, she really does sound like she's in a total fog. Will she come out of it? I don't know. I don't think OM is actually that big a deal; I think it's more about you and her, not him and her.
She does do these talks when she wants to make a point. They are rehearsed I'm sure or at least 'symbolic' to her. I guess I'm not seeing the 'fog'. She seems to know what was wrong with our relationship and what she wants out of another one and how she will never get that from me. Other than the 'forgivness' she needs to resolve with me she believes she has totally moved on. Am I missing it?
OM may not be a long term 'big deal' but he is right now. It's all she thinks about.
Quote: I know what you mean. I am backing way off for my own sake; I just can't can't take the stress anymore.
Yeah, and I am also starting to believe it is just over. Other than the small moments of emotion I see from her she is 'out the door' emotionally and NEVER has anything good to say about our marriage.
Maybe this is the best thing to do - act as if it's over and try to be a friend. Perhaps when her affair fades out things will be different but who knows when or if that will happen. And even by then she may have been able to distance herself even more from me.
I really messed up by letting myself get weak and depressed for so long. It sure seems like there is no way to repair the damage we created.
Quote: I really messed up by letting myself get weak and depressed for so long. It sure seems like there is no way to repair the damage we created.
I've beaten myself up over this, too, b/c I think my post-partum depression four years ago was the beginning of the end: H just couldn't handle it. But you know what? That doesn't reflect on *us*, Frank, it reflects on *them*. No one *wants* to be depressed; it's not like it's a good time and a way to just "get attention." It's hell. You can't do anything about your brain chemistry, and if you feel things more deeply than other people, why is that a bad thing? It just means you're a caring person. I know that that isn't what a "real" man is "supposed" to be, but it's really nothing to be ashamed of. Depression is an illness. If she walked out on you b/c you had cancer, would you think that was okay?
Okay, I'll get off my mental health soapbox, now. You are not weak; you are strong and you will get through this no matter what happens. Please take care of yourself and do what you need to so that you don't fall into another depression. Will you recognize the signs if you are? That is why I'm laying low.
N.
Life isn't about finding yourself; it's about creating yourself My thread: Trusting God's Plan
Quote: That doesn't reflect on *us*, Frank, it reflects on *them*. No one *wants* to be depressed; it's not like it's a good time and a way to just "get attention." It's hell.
I see what you mean. I guess that since I was drinking to cope with my depression that I see it as me being 'weak'. People see drinking as a 'disease' or a 'weakness' but, tied to depression it is something much worse.
My wife blames all our problems on me drinking, and doesn't tie it into depression at all. Just how I drank and was not present, angry, sad or whatever. I was being angry that she didn't do what it took to help me, but now I see from what you say that I'm more angry that she gave up after not trying very hard or enlisting help. I WAS sick. I NEEDED someone strong to help me up. She keeps saying she 'tried' but I wouldn't let her help me. I said to her "WHY didn't you get someone else to intervene???" A friend, a family member? She says she 'tried' but nobody would believe her.
I know that if SHE was in that same place I would pull the moon out of the sky, I would drag her to therapy, I would do whatever it takes to get her better. I wouldn't 'hide' and 'be scared of her reaction'. I would kick ass.
I stopped drinking on Oct 22nd for the last time. This was when W came back from her trip and started telling me she didn't think she wanted to be married.
Even thought I'm on medication I have had to really fight not to drink because it's the way I have been coping with my pain. But, I have an inner strength that has helped me out. I hurt a lot, but I also know that if I drink it will make the hurt worse, not better.
So, thanks for helping me to see that I was sick, not bad.
Oh wow, you won't believe how close to home this hits. I just posted on my thread about my H and his drinking problem. I think he has been depressed for a long time and has been self-medicating with alcohol. I tried for a long time to get him into therapy or rehab, but he refused to admit that he had a problem. He finally got arrested and decided that he did, in fact, have a problem. Got into an excellent rehab programme that deals not just with addiction but with the underlying causes, and dropped out after two months b/c "everyone else" was a "loser" and he didn't really have a problem. I told his parents, who subtly mentioned it, but never went further than that. Now, he says he is going to get help for what he says are numerous problems. He's been in therapy for a few months, but still hasn't really admitted that he has a drinking problem. He goes back and forth btw saying he does and saying he can control it.
I feel sad for him and I want him to get well. I really feel like I've done what I can, and now he's chosen to leave.
Sorry for going on about myself; I'm glad I was able to help.
N.
Life isn't about finding yourself; it's about creating yourself My thread: Trusting God's Plan
Quote: Very true, BJ, but it is such a challenge to observe behaviours and not get emotionally involved.
I agree. For me, the difficulty is the 'not knowing'. Not knowing what they are really thinking or feeling but having to have faith. Also, in my case the existence of OM is a barrier because until that is gone, she is not emotionally here.
So in a whole day of 'nothing changed' finding one little 'baby step' and giving it significance is emotionally hard. I mean, what if there IS NO SIGNIFICANCE to what they did, it was just a kindness or had a meaning different to what WE assign to it.
Here are my examples from the past 2 days and how I intepret them, the DB way and the 'not significant' way.
1) While making dinner I act silly and make jokes and other comments to wife who is in the kitchen. she jokes back, pinches me and is funny too. After a few minutes of this she says something to me that ends in 'Babe'.
-- DB: She got connected to old feelings of a time when we were fun together. 'Babe' was part of that connection -- Non-DB: She was having fun with her 'friend' and is feeling relief (or not thinking anything at all) that we are getting along. 'Babe' was a slip up.
Last nite we went to a concert of our D15 High School band. During the concert there were many times when I happened to glance at her and she at me and we smiled real heartfelt smiles to each other.
-- DB: She was warming up to me because of the genuine heartfelt feelings I was projecting to her. -- Non DB: She was feeling good about our D15's performance and was sharing that connection with me. She's glad we are getting along and able to share these times as a cooperating set of co-parents and friends.
This morning I got a call at 7 am from a colleague that one of our web servers was down and it was critical (I am a e-commerce web site designer/engineer). I hurried downstairs to go to my office to fix the problem. On the way I passed W and said 'crap, I just got a call that a server was critical' and went to my office. I turned on my computer and since it would take 2 minutes to start up I thought, "hey, I will go back to the kitchen and at least say a nice 'good morning' to W since this will take 2 minutes anyway".
So I did, went out there and said with a big smile 'Oh, by the way "GOOD MORNING". She smiled at me and said "aww, I'm sorry you are having a crappy start to your day" and walked over to me and gave me a hug (wow!).
-- DB: She is feeling comfortable with me and expressing her love and caring. -- Non-DB: Since she is becoming my 'friend' she feels like she can give me a hug because she feels sorry for me.
So for me, it's that constant battle between using DB techniques to interpret her actions or using wifes own words about her feelings to determine how I interpret her actions.
Which do we believe? She says we are friends. DB says that any actions where they show affection are 'baby steps' towards reconciliation. For me that is the conflict.
I have no doubt that, as BJ says, changing our behaviors are changing their behaviors. The doubt I have is how we are interpreting those changes.
Who says those are necessarily the definitions of the DB and non-DB "interpretations"? And who said DB includes "interpreting actions"? Far as I know, DB says to "monitor results".
Quote: I agree. For me, the difficulty is the 'not knowing'. Not knowing what they are really thinking or feeling but having to have faith.
I have been reading your posts for awhile now Frank with a great deal of interest - havn't really responded as I can see you are working your way through a lot of stuff and I feel you are doing really well I find this quote really interesting
because this is 'theoretically' what happens when we GAL big time what usually happens however is that we continually tell how we feel - we spill out our emotions - we act like we are devastated by all this (of course that is human and we can't help it) but it doesn't help the situation at all imagine you going about and GAL so big and bright and behaving like everything in YOUR world is great and fine what will go through her mind she will not know what your doing what you are thinking what you are feeling the shoe will be on the other foot so to speak that is why GAL is so important - and I feel from your posts that you are now in a very good place to do this GAL does not have to mean on your own - you can do it with the children go do new activities together - be busy every weekend the key is to not ask your W along and wait till she asks can she come with you
I also suggest that if your W brings up the past at all to say nothing you do can change that and then change the subject Also I believe you have a lot of anger towards your W for not helping you with your depression/drinking the fact remains that nothing changed until you decided to do something about it I think you need to forgive yourself for your past behaviours - forgive your W for doing as much as you thought she should and look to YOUR future and GALing this is where I think things will begin to turn around for you bj
Also I believe you have a lot of anger towards your W for not helping you with your depression/drinking the fact remains that nothing changed until you decided to do something about it I think you need to forgive yourself for your past behaviours - forgive your W for doing as much as you thought she should and look to YOUR future and GALing this is where I think things will begin to turn around for you bj
I agree, and it isn't so much that I am angry with her for not 'doing enough' but I am angry with her for THINKING she 'did everything' and blames me.
Regardless, it's in the past. Right now I am looking to figure out what future I may have with her, given the kind of person I know she really is now.
Quote: DonH If only some of these S's could see that their reactions are in many cases far worse than our origional actions.
Yes, because in the case of the people who are HERE, it is VERY clear that we are the exceptions to the 'divorce game'. Think about it. Thousands of people are in various stages of divorce right now. Yet only a small group get the DR book or join this BB. Why? Because we are more enlightened, smarter, stronger and loving and ALWAYS WERE. Were were just lost souls in our marriages, and our lives.
So, I submit to you all that our WAS's did not do the 'hard' stuff needed to motivate us to change, 'tough love' and such, and neither did we. BUT when they did the 'easy' thing, which is run away, WE woke up from our slumber and did the hard thing, which is CHANGE OURSELVES and do our best to fix the problems.
I just got back from seeing my counselor, and I don't know how many of you believe in the spiritual concept of 'light' and 'dark' energy.
My C said to me that another way to look at things is that the WAS got stuck in the dark energy. They were used to getting the 'light' energy from US when we were our old, powerful selves. When we changed, they had no source and since they could not stand ON THEIR OWN without US as a source, they eventually either A) Find someone else, an affair, someone they think will fill in that hole in them. or B) Just shut it all out, so they don't feel either the light or the dark, they just 'are'.
When WE BECOME truly sources of light enregy by being positive, loving, strong and sure of ourselves and our goodness, we will once again be that source of light that they NEEDED and they will be attracted to it. They will be wary for a while but they WILL be attracted to it if it truly is there. Without needyness coming from us.
BUT, in order for the 'new' relationship to work, THEY also have to not NEED to get their energy (self esteem) from US or we are doomed to repeat this. They have to have found themselves, and their own inner strength during this time of growth and change or they will not be the person we need to be with. They will still be the person we had problems with.
In my case, I love my wife, I really do. But as I look at the past years, coming from my perspective of strength, I see that when I was up and positive she was up and positive. When I was down and negative she was also down. When I STAYED down she had no capability to be the balancing force in the relationship and did not help US to get back up. That is not a woman I need to be with. We need to be a TEAM, each capable of uplifting the other during our ups and downs.
I keep saying in my prayers "Come on W, please grow up! I want you to be with me and to heal our family. Please don't make me have to leave you behind!"
That, is my fear. She won't grow up and come with me and I will end up having to leave her behind to live her own life, whatever it will be.
You are not weak; you are strong and you will get through this no matter what happens. Please take care of yourself and do what you need to so that you don't fall into another depression. Will you recognize the signs if you are? That is why I'm laying low.