Then some things started making me chuckle. Your H is not really LD, his arousal at your very presence and brushes is a new clarification--to me, and says a lot I think.
placing his hand on ME is really intelligent. I am too distracted at the moment to figure out why this is less threatening
could it be because it puts him - 'in control' and places the dynamic as it should be with him as the aggressor? Much like your spooning up to him and pretending to sleep -- assuming the position - is basically making yourself unassertively available? ( LOL memory --I used to say this practically everynight to my x <DEEP joking voice> Assume the position. in reference to spooning, snuggling)
Isnt this a mild way of allowing him to 'play his role'. Most assuredly it is aggravating to you....I really like Mr. H...
I liked what Corrie said earlier about 'playing' demure, etc. Ideally you will be able to frankly talk about this stuff eventually, and have said that it is much improved already.
FWIW, in retrospect whenever my deceased W would support me through a personal low, ( which means not b!tching, nagging, or 'punishing' ) I would open up more to her afterward, and when she didnt-- I shut her out and closed doors to her quite efficiently. How well in just the areas that were important to her exactly, I am not going to detail.
I bring this up now because your H just went thru a low and you supported, shored up his insecurities and stayed available even though he became unattractive to you and now on the back side he seems to be opening up to you, more so, then ever before.
couple strange questions
How verbal/chatty are you guys during ML? There are some things that can be said, that will be remembered, that would be hard to get out, or believed as truthfully were they said in a logical convo...
How is your pain with IC now? That bit of aggravation existed in my M too, and I am looking back and just now noticing that my deceased W had that whenever I was at a low point and when I was 'on top of life' so to speak it went away.... more of my 'the mans mental state controls the R' musings....
Damn she was an amazing woman/wife... ah well, we all have to live with our choices and free will.
I wanted to say basically to everyone, I really love this board. HP your comments to dori about anger and resentment, very nice. I clipped it to my R notes. Mrs. Nop, your always make a great Pot Roast, I mean, POST but I really liked your posts to ZB the past couple weeks, and lately, the People Pleaser, and NCD. Of course I always agree with NOP, except on, sometimes, one thing --the complimenting.. but you are in a succesful M and I am not soooo.... I guess we will let that speak for itself.
I have learned so much here in the past 4 months, from everbody more so then ALL the books I read during my 'going dark' period. Maybe goes hand in hand too...
Anyways they can revoke my membership? muzzle me, and I will still lurk here. Good pep's, great insights, lots of learning by me from the shared experiences.
Quote: could it be because it puts him - 'in control'
Definitely. Like all humans, he is very aware of when he is being pushed (or even pleasantly nudged) to do something. Naturally, he resists. I do everything I can to encourage him to be the aggressor. Looking back, I can see that he always was the aggressor but that he never chased me. IOW, I was *always* putting out signals, mildly seducing him, trying to turn an innocent hug into something more and yet have it seem that it was all his idea, etc etc ad nauseum. I don't think he's ever been the all-out aggressor, even when he was in a really aggressive period of his life (for instance, the USMC, or one job in particular that stands out). He's just been more aggressive.
And much of his aggression lessening was due to me and how I interacted with him. I took responsibility for that and have knocked it off entirely, as of about 6 years ago. That was not a proud moment--to realize how much I wore him down and that the little nub of a man who was left was not all that attractive and it was MY FAULT. Gulp.
Quote: How verbal/chatty are you guys during ML?
Medium, I'd say. We don't talk about extraneous things, like D3's tap dancing or what we ate for dinner, but we do talk about each other and what turns us on, how much we love each other, blah blah. We talk all the way through the process and MrH, surprisingly, is realllly good at Sex Talk.
Secondly, the pain. It's much better thank you for asking. It is not gone, and I don't think it ever will be. Some days it hurts worse than others. I no longer say a word to MrH about it. At all. I'm sure you can figure out exactly why I've become mum on the subject. It has nothing to do with his state of mind, whether he's on top or not, and everything to do with my hormones, I'm assuming. It is actual physical pain, I could loctae it precisely for a surgeon. It still hurts a bit when I sit down, but it's tolerable. My hair is also growing in and that always adds to a woman's sense of attractiveness, to have HAIR!!!!!! What a year, for the both of us.
Thank you for replying and for the compliments. The board is much enriched by your presence, as bombastic as it sometimes may be.
Hey HP, just stopping by to say HI and get a dose of what you guys are serving over here. No complaints in my world lately...realizing my LOD was situational and not terminal. Yippee for that!
Barbie
Each experience in life has formed me, become part of me, made me stronger.
Quote: I wore him down and that the little nub of a man who was left was not all that attractive and it was MY FAULT. Gulp.
You know, honey, back when chrome made statements about how his actions have made his wife the way she is, and all that stuff he used to say-- I can't remember exactly what it was, but stuff about how it's his fault the R is the way it is now-- we were quick to disabuse him of the notion that he is/was powerful enough to create these traits in her.
Remember, we can't MAKE anyone else BE or DO anything. I think we covered that pretty thoroughly on Friday.
So your actions may have revealed traits in your H, or maybe created conditions where they could come out of hiding, but you couldn't possibly be powerful enough to wear a Marine Seminarian down to a nub-- I mean, you've told us often how he is Mr. Self-Control. If he won't LET you do good things to him now (like touch him if he's not in the mood), what makes you think you were powerful enough back then to do bad things to him that he didn't want? Let him be responsible for who he was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be?
Lillie, You are of course right about that. However, I stand by my guilt. My H's sexual indifference doesn't make me less sexy but it sure does mess with both the dynamics of the R, as well as lessen my motivation to continue acting like a RHM. No.....technically he's not making me do anything but it DOES affect the R.
This was one of those things that had almost instant results. I made a conscious choice to build him up with my words, instead of tearing him down (either in anger or in jest). I am not a mean person and I had absolutely no explanation for why I had done this, except maybe some lame FOO stuff and the simple fact that he allowed me to. Yuck.
Quote: realizing my LOD was situational and not terminal. Yippee for that!
Girl, I knew that one all along!
Now, wanna tell me what has changed about your situation to make this realization hit so suddenly?? DO TELL!
I saw this message the other day and couldn't respond..no time..and now I had to go searching for it so I could get the skinny. I could have emailed you, sure, but then the rest of us wouldn't get to hear the juicy details.
So, I've started another book, title above. Written by Harley, it attempts to define relational participants into three broad categories.
Here are the initial definitions.
A Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.
A Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.
A Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a home for life with a willingness to make repairs that accommodate changing needs - painting the walls, installing new carpet, replacing the roof and even doing some remodeling - so that it can be comfortable and useful.
End Quote
I propose that many of us who hesitate to really lay it out for our spouse, choose to not do so because of the fear that they'll leave the relationship. If your assessment is accurate, then you may be a buyer married to a renter. It helps explain why some of us can dedicate so much effort to the relationship while seeing little or no reciprocal response from our spouse.
I know that I reached the point where I no longer pushed NOP for what I wanted in our relationship. It was based on a mixture of fear that I would destroy the marriage as well as a heaping dose of religiousity that resulted in an attitude similar to "good people don't keep asserting their wants" with a teaspoon of "if you're suffering, it's probably because Jesus wants you to learn some lesson."
I am a renter married to a freeloader. I don't bring up my issues persistently enough - I don't "own" them - to keep our problems and their potential solutions to the forefront. In order to be a buyer I would need to be more persistent, even in the face of rejection. Or I would need to face up to the possibility that my current domicile will never meet my needs no matter what I do.
When I bring up issues with my wife, she wonders why I don't just let sleeping dogs lie. If she has issues with me, she doesn't bring them up until after I have brought up issues with her. She uses them as a defensive shield. At one point, she told me in a very nice manner, that she never brings up my short comings or nags me - all true - so, why can't I just accept her the way she is too?
In essence, she was bemoaning the fact that I had broken the tacit agreement that we had been living under for so long: I won't complain about you if you don't complain about me.
My wife works very hard for our family, and she does many things for me that I probably don't appreciate. On the other hand, she will not do a single thing for me that might take her out of her comfort zone. This is what makes her a freeloader.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
Here are some of the beliefs of a freeloader according to Harley:
1. There are romantic relationships that are right for me and those that are wrong for me. Those that are right for me make me happy without my having to put much effort into making my partner happy. He or she should be happy with what I do that comes almost effortlessly for me. But romantic relationships that are wrong for me require me to do things which do not come naturally.
2. If I am in a romantic relationship with someone who criticizes me, it is a sign that the relationship is wrong for me. It's a mistake for me to change my behavior to accommodate a critical partner, because I'm only prolonging a relationship that isn't meant to be.
3. A romantic relationship that is right for me requires unconditional care and acceptance. If my partner expects me to do something in return for what he or she has done for me, it's a sign that the relationship is not based on unconditional care and, as such, is wrong for me. It's a mistake to try to change my behavior to make a relationship seem fair to my partner, because I should be unconditionally accepted for who I am and what I do.
WTH? too. 
but I really liked your posts to ZB the past couple weeks, and lately, the People Pleaser, and NCD. 
I guess we will let that speak for itself. 
Barbie 
