Karen, I have felt a bit squicked at being so detailed. My goal was to hopefully point out to Cemar that having a good sex life is not dependent upon the Holy Grail of desire.
While, of course, it is good to be a pleasing person, it always possible to carry a good trait too far. Kindness, servitude, helpfulness…these are qualities that are common to people who have an uncanny knack for inadvertently contributing to unbalanced relational patterns. Unhealthy people pleasing can be defined as the tendency to cater to others' preferences to the detriment of personal well-being. It is a pattern of living that allows others to be manipulative or, at the very least, insensitive.
Let's identify four self imposed "requirements" that these folks impose upon themselves, ultimately contributing to emotional and relational discord. Do any look familiar?
1. The requirement to be responsible for what is not yours. A central feature in thriving relationships is the willingness of each participant to be responsible for personal issues. For instance, if a man has a problem with his temper it is job to recognize it and take the necessary steps to bring it under control. Or if a woman falls too easily into a mindset of insecurity, it is her job to adjust the thinking patterns that are bringing her down. Somewhere along the way in life (usually in the early years) people pleasers have picked up the erroneous notion that they are responsible for others' moods. Perhaps they will become too cautious as they dance around someone else's improper behavior, hoping their calculated behavior will make that person have a better frame of mind. Or maybe they run interference for someone who is relationally off base as a means of keeping that person from having to pay the price for that inappropriate behavior. While it is good to be a harmonizer in relationships, people pleasers go too far in doing whatever has to be done to minimize what others are responsible for.
2. The requirement of enablement. People can be unappreciative, lazy, unwilling to compromise, and manipulative. That is not a very upbeat thought, nonetheless, it is true. Unfortunately, when you act in pleasing ways, there is a possibility that someone will think, "This is an excellent opportunity for me to indulge my selfish desires." Not everyone is that way, but enough are that it warrants caution when you choose to serve others. In the midst of their selfishness, some people send the message," I expect you to continue to treat me special, and don't expect me to let go of my rude behavior." Instead of standing up to this mind of deservedness, people pleasers will actually go along with the rude person's demands as a means of avoiding conflict. They fail to factor in the long-term effect of such capitulation on the healthiness of the relationship. By "propping up" irresponsibility, they can actually help keep others' bad habits and attitudes in motion.
3. The requirement to deny what is healthy. People pleasers ultimately play into improper relationship patterns because they choose not to admit reality. As an example, a worker may take on another's work stating that it is necessary for business, or a parent may overlook a child's selfishness saying it would create more problems to try to confront the problem. Usually, they rationalize that they are merely trying to get along as best as they can with those persons. The reality is that the people pleasers do not want to be bothered with the extra effort it would take to step out of someone else's manipulative or insensitive ploys. Using denial, they will label their "helpfulness" as good and they will label confrontation as nonproductive.
4. The requirement to show disrespect toward oneself. Suppose you talk with me about something heavy on your heart, pouring out your emotions as you seek some friendly encouragement. Then imagine that I reply: " Face it, your feelings and perspectives don't matter." What an insult! As absurd as that scene might be, that is precisely what people pleasers do to themselves when they allow others to repeatedly act insensitively to them. All behavior communicates something. When someone acts rudely, it is their way of indicating low respect to that person. When the recipient allows such behavior to continue, that person is indicating agreement. Excessive people pleasers show through their placating ways that they ultimately have little respect for themselves.
End Quote.
I don't think our more ascerbic spouses are evil. I just think they are insensitive and self-centered. You cannot deal with insensitive and self-centered people by running harder and doing more in the relationship.
They think it is their just due and since they aren't inclined to do things for others that they don't want to do, they assume you must really enjoy doing for others. So, they feel no need to treat you in the same fashion. Trust me, they don't start thinking "Hey! Maybe I should reciprocate!" while they benefit from your sacrifices.
Not speaking up for yourself *consistantly* in this sort of relationship, while hopefully (or dejectedly) waiting for them to *notice* is often an exercise in futility.
I'm still plowing through my own people pleasing tendencies.
MrsNOP, Does the schedule really eliminate the initiation?
From my H's standpoint, it doesn't. SOMEONE has to get the ball rolling and even though it's a given that it's going to happen that night, he still hates it.
I'll say this: Since H has been being more flirty and grabby outside the bedroom, his confidence has increased and he seems to not be so self conscious, so worried about how he's coming across, while initiating. I think it's because he's already had the ice broken, already become familiar with my body and my personal space, that evening. It seems a continuation of the earlier fun rather than starting from ground zero. Iow, it seems to lessen the pressure a bit.
Or that's how it appears to me. It could be every bit as fraught with tension, for him, only it's occuring in the light of day instead of under the covers.
Just an observation.
Oh and I don't mind your squickiness at all. It's so hard imagining life from the other side (for all of us) that oftentimes I need the detail to be able to understand.
Quote: Does the schedule really eliminate the initiation?
Yeah, for us it does.
NOP is not having to chase me about the house seeing if he can get me excited so that he *might* have sex. I'm not having to read the tea leaves and determine if he's wanting to ML tonight and is just waiting for me to make the first move, or if I can just avoid his eyes for another 30 minutes I can just pretend he isn't really signalling.
We show up together and start caressing each other - together. After a bit of warmup, we'll concentrate on one of us for a time and then reciprocate. Then the grand finale.
So, yeah, it does eliminate the "dance".
Perhaps some of you think the dance is a necessary component of your lovemaking. I don't know. However, if there are desire descrepancies, I see the dance as something that can and does cause a lot of damage.
It has taken forever for me to detach myself from H's pleasing stuff. It is very easy for both parties to get tangled up in this dynamic. In some ways, our M was a timebomb waiting to explode--due to this setup--that H skillfully defused by pouring his whole life into religion. He suddenly stopped pleasing me and it snapped me out of this dynamic fast. Don't get me wrong--he's still a people pleaser--everything in the articles sounds just like him, but I've learned not to take advantage of this and I think he's learned to detach a little. In his case, the people pleasing stuff was a subtle way of trying to maintain control of his surroundings. It's not only the feisty females who jockey for control. His manner was just more subtle, more quiet. It also came across, in a weird and unexpected way, as self centered. Sometimes he's so wrapped up in himself and his own guilt that he can't see the here and now.
These days, I am hyper sensitive to taking advantage of his desire to please. In our early days, you couldn't have convinced me that I didn't deserve it ( ). Just last night, I had many twinges of "he's doing too much" and I had to fight the urge to go the OTHER way and start taking care of him, because he won't do it. I try to stay out of it, differentiate, but it's hard sometimes.
I would say it eliminates the initation dance in your situation, but it wouldn't in mine. Scheduling for us does still mean we both show up, but one of us still has to get the ball rolling physically....sometimes now (still rarely) he will, if all the planets are in alignment and everything's just right Otherwise, it's still up to me to get him warmed up, then he will participate.
Eventually, once my H gets over this sexual resistence (or whatever you wish to call it) that he has I believe we will get to a place where scheduling does eliminate initation. Right now though, we're still far from that place.
GEL, This is what I was getting at, in my situation too. Someone has to be the one to reach out first, physically, and my H hates to do it. Mrs, I betcha this notion is as foreign to you as I don't know what, but there it is. Our men have an almost impossible time physically reaching out to initiate sex. So in some ways the schedule would increase that pressure, not take it away.
Otoh, it would decrease the pressure and disappointment in other areas and build confidence so it's a tradeoff that, I believe, would work out well in the end.
Honeypot, watching the prettiest snowstorm. big flakes drifting down slowly, so quiet.
Zactly my point. I believe you and I, and a few of the other HDW's on this BB are in somewhat difficult spots. For my H just simply reaching out to me sexually takes, as he'd put it...."two Bills of Rights and an act of Congress." So even when we do have a schedule, he'll show up (sometimes)....but I'm still left to get his engine revved. Once it's revved he's fine, but I'm still left (most of the time) to get it to that point.
I'm still trying to find what works for my H too when it comes to trying to arouse him throughout the day. Too much verbal (pressure).....too much intimate touch (pressure). The only thing I know he consistently likes are certain peices of clothing....but that only works on the weekend....when I see him lol. Still working on that magic combination.
Honeypot....I was watching that same snowstorm last night. Ian just LOOOOOVED playing in it!!! He'd just squeal with delight everytime a snowflake hit his face.
At the beginning of your next scheduled encounter. The very first thing, take HIS hand, and place it where you want it to be on your body, then wait for him to move before you do anything else.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Seriously, he would love that. He has often asked me to "help" him make the first move. Theoretically, I have no problem with it. In practice, it isn't very sexy or attractive.
).