Quote: A throwaway buzzword in pop psychology, intimacy remains a litmus test for the health of relationships and is something everyone should strive for, says Kelly, the bestselling author of The Rhythm of Life. "Intimacy is the one thing a person cannot live happily without," he writes. Since many people cling to the "pubescent notion" that intimacy and sex are synonymous, Kelly begins by talking about what intimacy is not-sex, common interests-and proffering up inspirational tidbits and oft heard motivational questions ("Who energizes you?" "Why do they energize you?" "How do you want to be remembered?") before hammering home the thesis of this book: intimacy is a "legitimate need." His seven levels of intimacy-clichés; facts; opinions; hopes and dreams; feelings; faults, fears and failures; and legitimate needs-each get a chapter-length discussion. Kelly advocates openness-in communication, enduring pain, delaying gratification-and sprinkles in bits of spirituality in cajoling readers to foster intimacy, and, in turn, love and the meaning of life. "Life is about love. It's about whom you love and whom you hurt. Life's about how you love and hurt the people close to you." His view may seem simplistic, but Kelly's simple, direct prose and patient explanations will appeal to spiritual readers.
Actually both of us are resistent to scheduling sex, each for our own reasons.
I believe that H is afraid that he will let me down..not be physically interested on that night (performance anxiety, iow) or will flat out refuse and start a fight. So he masks his reasons for not wanting to do it by saying that he prefers spontaneity. Which is a crock, as he doesn't prefer spontaneity in ANY area of his life. He is pre-avoiding conflict.
Me....I'm pre-avoiding the lack of desire and pursuit. I don't get heaps of that now (although it's increasing every week) but I worry that if there was a schedule it would really go down the drain. I worry that he'd stop all pursuit because...well, why...we're already scheduled to ML so why do that other stuff? Or, worse, he'd make corny jokes about our "hot date" in that snorting Chrissy-from-Three's-Company style. Ok, he doesn't really snort but his awkward nervous chatter would suck any spark out of the situation.
Ok, here's what I'm really afraid of, as it concerns scheduling: Do I really have enough heat to bring it on, for the both of us? To lead us through this situation? I don't know!
Lots to think about with this. Thank you for posting this MrsNOP. This is something I've been tossing around literally for years and have not made the commitment to see it through.
The schedule idea really helped our marriage. Neither one of us is HD enough to be the driving force behind a regular sex life; H tends to follow my lead, and I am inconsistent at best. He feels pressured by me when I am HD and doesn't assert himself when I am LD. The schedule gives us both a chance to know what to expect, and I know H likes feeling he can fill my needs. We keep an element of surprise by allowing 24 hrs from the agreed upon day, with H generally being the initiator ( which I like). On average we tend to have sex 2x/week...once during the week and once on the weekends. It's not perfect...there are times I feel spontaneously sexual and feel I can't act on it, and other times when I wonder how I am going to get some desire going, but this is the first time in many yrs that we have had a steady sex life. It does hurt that H doesn't have more natural desire of me; that we are not as openly expressive and intimate as I would like; and that we have setbacks, but overall I think we have a good plan set in place.
My thank yous to the NOPs for vaildating the schedule idea.
I have some experience of scheduling and it has improved things for us from 3 times a year to 3 times a month. The important thing is frequency. The first time I suggested it (well before I knew you guys) we agreed on once a month which was the best I could negotiate. It failed because the long delay meant that sex was still a BIG ISSUE with the end of the month being filled with "Pressure". It fizzled out after a couple of months but it did enable me to argue for once a week when I returned to the subject last year. I was able to point out that when we tried once a month in the past it didn't work and once a week would stand a better chance. The reason why frequency is so important is because time builds up a thick thorny forest around the LD and hey, you're no Prince Charming or you wouldn't be stuck in the thorn bushes would you? Frequency breaks down the fear barrier and once sex becomes part of the routine and not some massive point of conflict you can begin to improve quality and hopefully start to enjoy it. If you can get to once a day well that's not a schedule is it? Me, I'd be happy to settle on once a week schedule and one other time in the week at her initiation. Is that too much to expect? SD
I've been researching intimacy and ran across a few quotes on several different website I thought I would pass on some of the ones that I liked.
"Intimacy requires that we be ourselves with no pretense. We must dare to show one another who we are, without masks and secrets. Then we can be accepted, quirks and all. Unless we take that risk, we will never have the opportunity to be fully accepted. If we fail to expose who we are, we develop disregard for ourselves; and that keeps us at a distance from others."
"Let's define “marital intimacy” as the dynamic process of each of you mates trusting the safety of honestly disclosing your current feelings, needs, fantasies, dreams, fears, hopes, “failings” and limitations, “general thoughts,” and honest relationship feedback to yourself and your partner. "
"Intimacy grows as couples dare to risk greater openness. As each partner becomes more honest with himself and more aware of his own faults, and his own need to blame the other for their conflict, the wall between them begins to come down, block by block. Each of us feels the need to hide at times, behind a mask of self-sufficiency or self-justification, particularly when conflict threatens or self-esteem is weak. Only as each individual relaxes his mask and becomes more transparent (openness) can intimacy develop in the relationship.
Carl R. Rogers uses the term congruence to describe one aspect of openness.(4) Congruence means being a real person, not being phony or putting on an act. It means knowing and owning one's feelings; it means to "ring true" as a human being. There is a kind of inner honesty and consistency in a congruent person which makes it possible to know and to relate to him.
In order to have peace, many couples put aside certain subjects -- those that are emotionally charged -- those that are important for their coming to a true mutual understanding. Thus bit by bit the transparent window which the relationship of man and wife should be, becomes blurred. They are starting to become strangers to one another.(5)
Intimacy thus requires mutual openness and the willingness to risk genuine encounter or meeting in areas which are important to either partner. Intimacy grows as couples learn to be emotionally present to each other. The concept of presence is taken from the thinking of the existentialists in psychotherapy."
I also ran across another intimacy breakdown list:
Sexual Intimacy: Emotional Intimacy: Intellectual Intimacy: Aesthetic Intimacy: Creative Intimacy: Recreational Intimacy: Work Intimacy: Crisis Intimacy: Conflict Intimacy: Commitment Intimacy: Spiritual Intimacy: Communication Intimacy:
I'm with you on some aspects of self that don't need public viewing. I have many feelings that are fleeting- anger, jealousy, rage, frustration, true evil etc... These are things that I keep to myself unless they keep arising, become a theme, become particularly bothersome. Barraging one's mate with every thought as it arises is NOT intimacy. However, that is a far cry from the description of "honest relatiionship feedback, current feelings etc..." Good stuff, Mrs. Nop.
Karen
PS I appreciate how specific you have been about your expressions of sexuality in your M when addressing Cemar. What is the definition of success? When both people's needs are being met reliably, when both people feel happy, contented, loving most of the time NOT some pie in the sky thing where one's partner becomes exactly who we want them to be. Let's face it we married our spouses for who they are not who we want them to be. There is much room for negotiation, learning and growing within that space without losing who we fundamentally are.
What are you and your wifes crashing insecurities?
If you dont take Mrs.Nop!!!! up on her offer to help you I am going to hack this site, find out your IP, hack your computer, find out who you are and go tell your wife to D you because you are a stubborn, angry, pigheaded, sexual/emotional connection hater.
What do you think of them apples? <matt damon --good will hunting>
No I am not serious. or capable..... ZB on the other hand or ARJnex......
Blackie--Your post to Cemar is the funniest thing I've read all doggone day! Thanks for the opportunity to laugh my butt off instead of stress out!
BTW, after some interest in the line of thought brought up earlier about Cemar being some gaggle of college aged boys who have only one focus in life, I decided to google his name. I came up with a kazillion different websites. But I found one that just about sent me over the edge with your post. It popped up on the Bali word of the day (maybe you could go to Bali instead of Belize? )
Quote: CEMAR: Dirty,soiled,filthy. Example:
Perkataan yang cemar-Filthy words.
Now, please let us know if you carry out your threat!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
This is a great thread MrsNOP. Raises a lot of issues that I think we can all relate to
InherJourney Said:
Quote: The schedule idea really helped our marriage. Neither one of us is HD enough to be the driving force behind a regular sex life; H tends to follow my lead, and I am inconsistent at best. He feels pressured by me when I am HD and doesn't assert himself when I am LD.
I can really relate to this and I can really see how having a schedule would help, it would keep you on track not let the Higher-D (but not that high) just decide to forget about it and not tackle the issue.
Cemar said:
Quote:
And another problem I see with scheduled sex, it does not address what happens OUTSIDE the bedroom. This issue is FAR larger then just the sex, its all about ATTITUDE. What about Flirting, Playfulness, Kissing, Cuddling, touching, sexiness. Being LD includes ALL of these issues, it is something that must be addressed 24/7, not once a week on scheduled sex day.
As you say MrsNOP
Quote: I flirt with NOP. I kiss him, caress him, grab his crotch, nuzzle his neck, touch him when I walk by, grab hugs, reach for his hand, kiss-lick-suck his penis, make love in various positions, playfully slap his naked butt when he's coming out of the shower. Last night I walked down the hall wiggling my a$$ at him and laughing about "presenting" to him like baboons do in nature. And I enjoy all of the above
I can really relate to LD person enjoying these things MORE when there is a schedule sometimes when I have been feeling LD (post-babies) the idea of getting into the flirty stuff scares me in case it would lead to full-on intercourse. Having a schedule means you can enjoy all that playful stuff in the knowledge that you don’t actually have to perform until sexday (and gradually build yourself into the mood for it!). The LD person can feel SAFER doing all these things when they know it’s only going to lead to the real thing one time a week (or whenever)
SuperDave said:
Quote:
The reason why frequency is so important is because time builds up a thick thorny forest around the LD and hey, you're no Prince Charming or you wouldn't be stuck in the thorn bushes would you? Frequency breaks down the fear barrier and once sex becomes part of the routine and not some massive point of conflict you can begin to improve quality and hopefully start to enjoy it.
Totally with you there Dave, I think especially for LD women the more often you can do it the more often you can keep her pot boiling. It’s like a pilot light, if you don’t stoke up the boiler often enough the pilot light will go out and we all know how much trouble that is to relight. Up to a point my own drive is very dependent on what I am actually getting, if our SL dwindles to once a month, I kind of stay at that level, if it goes up to once/twice a week then I feel up for it on an even more frequent basis.
In the pre-kids days of our marriage after the first year or two our SL dwindled to about once a week. This was a bit low for my taste but it was a kind of schedule, tended to do it on Sunday mornings, if something happened that meant we couldn’t do it then we both knew we had missed it for the week without really agreeing that this was our schedule it just was. Now we have kids, morning sex is out of the question (sigh) but we have failed to institute a new routine and I think we really need to.
take care all
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Quote: I can really relate to this and I can really see how having a schedule would help, it would keep you on track not let the Higher-D (but not that high) just decide to forget about it and not tackle the issue.
From a LD perspective, when there is a large discrepancy between spousal drives, it can appear to be a huge chasm that cannot be spanned. I think this is often the foundation underpinning the LD's tendency to act overwhelmed on this issue.
A schedule can take away the fear of "never enough" or "what am I signing up for" that has popped up among several of the couples represented here.
A schedule can take away the burden of intiating from both parties.
A schedule does influence the LD spouse to think about sex more often.
A schedule keeps the issue of sex in the forefront of the relationship. It's damned difficult to work out a sexually issue if you only have sex half a dozen times a year.
A schedule helps eliminate some of the frustration the HD spouse is having to deal with and in doing so can often help grease the relational negative interactions.
Betsey