Shamed and Confused how about adding "Growing and Progress" to the thread title?
Chromosphere, just posting to say I am thinking about your situation and wishing you the best.
I see a guy that is making lots of progress and a group of cyber friends (real people) that are very knowledgeable and are giving their all to help you. You are doing great BTW, considering how hard this is for you.
Please take Cobra's advice about ------------ NO MATTER WHAT YOUR FEARS SAY!!! Stop the fantasizing, in both the positive and negative directions. You are being your own worst enemy ------------- I see you making great progress but doing the worst case thinking in your head makes you lose some of the confidence you gain. I am not preaching here, I need to learn that same message.
More than what not to do, I see the quality and quantity of advice and caring very high here. There are some truly talented people and I am so glad they post to your thread.
BTW, I am learning quite a bit from your thread and admire your courage and growth.
I was not going to post for a week because my R is mostly SSDD, but had to say I am rooting for you and your W and children. I like to see families work on the R and at least see how each individual contributed to the problem and for each person to learn and practice R skills, even if it does not make the R perfect.
Interesting talk about : --------------------- He said there was good guilt and bad guilt. The good guilt keeps us from doing wrong, or at least from doing wrong again. The bad guilt is as he stated "worse than useless."……… He pulled me part-way out of my hole by convincing me that this excessive guilt had to go. --------------------- WTG globule. Your C sounds like a gem.
No science questions for now. Reading about your R/M/family progress is more important.
Lou
OG_Lou? or OS_Lou, or NS_Lou. Old School learning New School!
You are right, she didn't threaten or anything. She actually very calmly told me that it would be awhile. Is it wrong for me to be scared by the word "awhile?" I know I am looking at the glass half-empty a bit here, but the whole affection thing is very important to me. Otherwise I wouldn't be here. I'm not suggesting at all that she should just get over it, or that I am mad at her for her response. I'm just expressing my fears at this moment. Maybe as the days go by, and we do start to heal, I'll be able to adjust. But uncertainty is a killer, kwim?
I do feel very fortunate in a way that my wife didn't blow up on me, didn't burst into a crying fest all night long, or didn't run to the ILs and tell them everything, all possibilities. And I am VERY grateful that she didn't decide to leave. It was nice to hold my newborn son this morning, and I did think that this might have been taken away from me. I guess I'm just letting the worry of the "creeping death" get to me. You all know what I am talking about. That slow process over time in which you just forget that affection, excitement, passion, intimacy is a possible thing. It happened to me once before and it took an EA to snap me out of it. Can it happen again? I know some of you will think "only if you let it." But can't you see that even due dilligence in watching for it can be a source of terminal frustruation, which can lead to resentment, and the same ultimate result, detachment and possibly abandonment. I know I am really projecting forward here. But I thought it best to get all my thoughts out, even the gloomy ones.
"There is nothing the OW's H can do either, you (IMPO) removed that threat to a degree as well. Sure, OW's H is bound to be really angry with you....wouldn't you be if the tables were turned?"
Well, there is the possibility that even though the W knows I sent emails to OW and expressed deep feelings in those emails, that actually reading the text might make things worse in her mind. But I have made up my mind (and the C suggested this too), I am not going to give in to blackmail. That is what this truly is. I can't live my life in constant fear of something happening. If he does it, he does it, and I will deal with it then. If the tables were turned, I would be angry, absolutely. But I can tell you for sure I would not make such a threat. Maybe it is because I am a conflict avoider. I don't think it is fair for him to try to hurt my wife and children, but I guess anger can make you do or say illogical things.
"YOU WILL GET THROUGH THIS!!"
I certainly hope so.
glob
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Your wife is 50% responsible for the condition of your marriage, pre-affair, as are you. From the perspective of your marriage, you are 100% responsible for having the affair. I just want to make sure that you understand who is responsible for what. Part of the 'fogginess' of an emotional entanglement is that the infidel seeks to find blame in order to balance out the equation of their choices rather than take responsibility for their actions.
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However, due partially to a sense of loyalty to OW, and mostly due to the advice of our MC, I had not told her, or even you guys, the full extent of that EA.
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You owe the other woman nothing. She owes you nothing. If she was a great person, she would not have involved you in an extramarital relationship. You won't see it now, and what I am saying will make you mad, but she made a stupid choice. So did you. Neither one of you are good friends. Good friends don't cause harm to the other, and that is what your relationship did.
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Anyway, the final straw came when mutual friend let me know that OW's H was consumed with a feeling of wanting revenge on me and had threatened OW that if he ever caught OW and I together in any way, he would send everything he had to my W and then call her and tell her everything else that OW had told him about the EA
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Exposure is a powerful motivator to end an illicit affair.
What would you do if your wife was spreading her legs for some other man? Would you further support her activity by helping her keep her secret, or would you do the right thing and let the other man's wife know what was happening. I would certainly want to know. Most people would.
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So now I ran the risk of something that I truly just wanted to get off my chest being revealed to my W by someone else, a vindictive someone else, and thus forever have it be remembered as not my choice.
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Careful how you paint the other woman's husband. I bet he is a lot like you. Scared and desperate. There is also a golden rule that you should be aware of; All cheaters are liars. You can't be or do the one without the other. I am sure you see the logic of it. Also, other woman will, and very likely already has, lied to you about her marital situation.
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I wanted to try if possible to remove the blackmail threat that was hanging over OW and my heads.
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Exposure is not blackmail. It is the bringing a secret held in the dark, to the light of day. Your wife had a right to know.
You are not a hero for telling your wife the truth, but you did do the right thing, and this is good.
Don't expect your wife to 'just get over this'. She won't, not for a long time, and you are going to have to help her. If you just dump this at her feet and do not actively work on recovery, your marriage will likely fail. You will end up paying alimony and child support for the next 18 years.
You do have a right to have your needs meet in your marriage, and your wife shouldn't threaten to hold sex over you as a weapon. That will cause a quick end to your marriage. She needs help also so that she can understand her contribution to the condition of your marriage.
There are two books both you and your wife should read - IMMEDIATELY.
"Surviving An Affair" and "His Needs, Her Needs" both by Willard Harley.
I am assuming you already have read Michele's books.
You have a lot of work to do. If you have been able to stomach what I have written to you, I am willing to talk to you more regarding recovery. Regardless of your opinion right now, you have a lot to learn and do yet in order to save your marriage.
Let me know if you want to continue this discourse.
All the best,
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Of course I can understand why her saying that it would be "awhile" would be scary to you. But what I heard, and you probably didn't....is that there is hope. Her saying "awhile" means there's hope that yes, you will again have what you are looking for. She didn't say "that will never happen", she didn't say "I will never"....she said it will be awhile. Putting myself in her shoes, that's only reasonable.....right now she's feeling pretty betrayed, yet she still doesn't say "never".
I know you are scared about a great many things right now....so much is in the realm of the unknown for you....and the unknown (for me anyway) is one of the scariest places to be.
Try your best to deal with today, be the best husband and father you can be today...worry about tomorrow, tomorrow. IMPO when you start worrying about the "what if's" down the road tomorrow, next week, or next year then that drags you down when it comes to working on today. It's an easy pitfall to fall into.
You know....this may sound really silly to you, but honestly it works. When you catch yourself beginning to focus on the "what if's" here's a trick you can use, it's a trick I recommended to LFL and it's one I sometimes use myself...but it can work with your internal thought process as well.
When you catch yourself thinking about those "what if's" that drag you down or you start thinking about the glass half empty....mentally say "EDIT!" I mean it...literally say it to yourself, stop....and conciously find a way to put a more positive spin to it. If you are looking at the glass half empty....find a way to spin it to the glass half full, so you can see what you DO have.
I know it sounds hoakey.....but it does help. I can't promise it will work every time, and it does take some practice to start doing this.....but this is something I use quite a bit, in order not to say things I don't mean. When I've been down in the dumps in the past, or in a depression....it's also a tool I use to pull myself back up so I can keep going.
Who knows....it might work for you too, I sure hope it helps.
"Deep down W now knows that you are attractive to other women and she may in future have to compete to keep you."
I guess the question is, is that a good thing for me to want her to know or think about? I mean, her being such an extreme conflict avoider, could she resort to thinking that I am wanting something else other than her, so she can never be good enough for me. How can I help her be sure that I truly want her other than just flat out telling her (but she might not believe me at this stage)?
"If I were you I wouldn't do any more begging for forgiveness. You've said you're sorry - that's enough."
I agree, I am past that stage.
"Sort yourself out and move forward."
Here is the hard part. I am now fighting depression, which has that nasty side effect of making everything seem dreary. Things that just a few days ago I would have loved to have time to do, now have no thrill for me. The only things I have a desire for are being with people. I want that to be the W, but I know she probably needs some space right now. I also don't want to go hang out with the guys too much either, as that might fuel some suspicion. What I would love most of all right now is just some tidbit, some sign, some information, that would make me feel secure that we can move forward and beyond this. I know I need to be patient, but its hard.
"If Bube can do it SD can do it and if SD can do it chromo can do it."
Don't mean to sound harsh, but have you both "done it?" Didn't you recently have a thread about giving up, and didn't Z-Bube have something similar? I'm not trying to brow beat you, I appreciate the pep talk for sure. I guess I'm just in a CeMar-hole right now (not trying to offend CeMar, just illustrate) looking for light at the end of the tunnel. I do appreciate your words.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
"remember, we are allowed to make mistakes along this journey called life"
You are right, thinking about that does help with the guilt issues. I am not Hitler in a room full of Mother Theresas like my guilt tries to tell me I am.
"takes a big man to own up to them and reset his course."
That's me. Big anyway.
"You have such a good grasp of your issues and are now receiving the help you need...staying in this direction will bring about good, in time."
I do feel like I have a better grasp on things now than I did when the depression and guilt really set in back during the EA. Although I do have a lot of (probably uneccessary) worry running through my head, I don't have that ultimate despair that plagued me for several months earlier this year.
"Remember, you can't control W's actions, only your own, and what will be will be"
Hard words to live by, but necessary.
"you are allowed to have needs"
I do have to remember that and not let my guilt convince me otherwise. It is so easy to feel like I don't deserve affection because of what I have done. But the funny thing is, that would actually be unfair to my wife. If I were to presume that she never wants me again, then I can never present to her that warm, welcoming person that she will need if she ever does drop the issue and decide to move on. So I would be dooming her to a life of no affection as well.
I know the right things, I've just got to make them my thoughts and not the other stuff. It is a battle for sure.
Thanks IHJ
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
That is hard for me to do (I don't fit into many foxholes), but I will try.
"Let your W digest all of this...this really stinks for her to have to deal with."
I do want her to have the space she wants/needs to deal with it. I need to find a way to validate that it does stink for her without it dropping me into a guilt fest though. Tough for me.
"But she will, one day, want it again. You just have to be patient."
I pray that the day will be soon.
"Other marriages have survived similar issues. Just look at the Clintons.;)"
OMG, I can't even imagine living like that.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
"So don’t beat yourself up over this. This is nothing to gain in doing so."
Agreed. Trying to internalize it.
"If you’ve truly come clean (and you better be sure you have this time, there won’t be another chance!), then there is only one direction to go and that is up."
Again, the only thing that is left is details, i.e. exact words that were said, etc. I don't think it would be productive to go through all that though, do you?
"One bright side to all this is that I recall she seemed to suspect you were not truly sincere in your earlier apology. It turns out she was right. This is her karma. She now got the additional pain she was looking for, so maybe she can put that to rest. Don’t discount her part in this."
Interesting possibility. One of the things I would like the W to hear (maybe this is wrong, if so someone tell me) is the C admitting that she told me to not tell about the physical side. Granted, it was just advice from a C, but maybe she will realize I wasn't acting from some deep desire to hide it from her.
"Stop following your emotions. You are logical, you can think things through if you put yourself to it, but you don’t let yourself do this."
Part of that is the guilt clouding my judgement too. Like I said ealier, I think excessive guilt can cause you to lower your standards for yourself. If you expect yourself to do bad things, you will.
"You are being your own worst enemy."
Agreed. Wholeheartedly. But the bad thing is I can feel the excessive guilt rising up when I agree with you.
"Sorry if all this doesn't sound too supportive, but I mean it that way."
It is supportive, thanks.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Chrome, this is a tough spot to be in, for you and your W.
Here's a teeny tiny positive spin on your telling your W about the EA: your W was probably imagining that a whole lot more went on between you and OW. When you told her the truth about the extent of it, even though it was icky, at least it banished other pictures that were probably in her mind. What I'm saying is that her fantasy about what happened between you two was ver likely a whole lot more extensive than what really happened (i.e., she may have fantasized you and OW ML for hours, lots of detail, tons of emotional and physical connection, you and EA plotting and planning to D your spouses and marry, etc.). The reality-- though still hurtful-- is considerably less than that. And now she doesn't have to picture the worst anymore.
Your C sounds wonderful-- I'm so glad you have him. You might ask about the relationship between depression and anger and take some time to feel your own anger. You may think you've been such a bad guy that you're not entitled to any anger... but the anger may still be eating you up. One definition of depression is anger turned inward.
"You need to recognize what you did and give yourself a pat on the back for being honest....I suspect you don't do that very often."
Do you mean I am not honest very often or I don't pat myself on the back very often? I know what you mean. I did feel like a very heavy weight was lifted yesterday. Unfortunatly, some other weights took its place.
"I believe you do change into this because you want to....but yes, it does take time and effort. It also takes looking at yourself in the mirror everyday and seeing the worthwhile valuable person that you are. You may not see that person everyday, you may not feel like that person everyday....but you need to remind yourself that you are that person, every day."
I did misstate my point. You are right, people can and do change if they desire to. What I meant was exactly what you said. It doesn't just happen instantaneously. I do need to get back to my self-esteem exercises. I have slipped up on them recently.
"She may not trust that change for quite some time, and in all honesty....she may not trust you for quite some time"
Both difficult things to swallow, but true. The odd thing is that I think I probably trust myself less than anybody, which I'm sure is yet another symptom of my self-esteem problems.
Thanks again GEL
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
