I sense that your thoughts are going a million miles an hours. Slow down, take a deep breath and take a step back.
I have a question about your last post. Why is S5 afraid to sleep in his own bed?
Here is a suggestion for a soft approach. Affirm H's observations. Tell him, yes for a while I did consciously act differently. I did it b/c I really wanted to save our R/M. I worked hard to show that to you. I worked hard to show that I was sorry. I worked hard so you would want you to ride in my truck again. I worked hard for you to want to kiss me again. I worked hard to share a bed with you for sleep as well as $ex. I want to have a real and healthy R/M w/you. I want to model a healthy R for the kids. I really want to seek help so we can do this. Will you do this for the kids and for us?
And just leave it at that. Don't tell him that all you did, didn't change him and so you've given up on that idea. Don't judge and criticize him. He'll only react negatively to that. And keep the language and tone calm. Just state the facts and leave out the negative stuff.
Think about how he might reply before you do this, so that you can respond or walk away w/o getting dragged into an unproductive argument.
Regardless of anything else, when the next physically/emotionally abusive episode occurs, make and keep your appointment at the Samaritan House! Make this a part of your boundaries to not be abused!
My two cents: I agree with NY and Jabez. Jabez's approach sounds like a good one because it's not confrontational. And putting things that way you get to say that you were working hard to get results, but didnt see the results you needed to see, without actually saying he didnt try. If he can't see how making you sleep in the other room, refusing to kiss you or ride in your truck just throws up a wall, he's clueless. Why keep trying if you get no where?
Your H frustrated the heck out of me! Good luck GF. It's NOT you.. it's him. He has a warped perspective for sure!
And putting things that way you get to say that you were working hard to get results, but didnt see the results you needed to see, without actually saying he didnt try.
That's where she's in stalemate. If she doesn't tell him she needs him to work on things, not asking for what she wants, it won't go anywhere. If she does tell him what she needs from him, he's going to refute it, deny it, and turn it around on her.
I like Jabez's suggestion. Matt saw hope? Matt expressed interest in your writing? Your M is not dead if he will change. That's a big if, a VERY BIG IF, but it's worth trying to see what he'll choose when you put it on the line. Calmly.
Again, there's no reason you can't pray for a good outcome. We are.
Thanks,
K
My sitch More importantly, Light A Million Candles
I have been following your thread and I've been wanting to stop by to say something to you...
Now, Heather, you ARE a strong woman and NO ONE doubts that...(except maybe you???) but the truth is, Heather, and I say this gently but I want to be clear...your M is abusive. Your H is abusive. And there is no gray area. It is simply the truth. I know you are having a hard time saying that out loud, admitting it to yourself...but deep down I think you know it is true.
When you are in a R where you are fearful that if you do something to pi$$ off your H he may harm you...that is NOT a good situation. I have read many examples here. The one that I'll use is what has been bothering you...trying to sleep in your bed. You are afraid that he may become violent if you try that. That is scarey Heather. And your rationalizing about your kids doesn't really play. You have just as much right to them as he does. He would not have to come take your kids. You would not have to leave them. I seriously must say Heather, and I'm sorry if this is hurtful...but I cannot support you staying in this M. I undoubtedly urge you to get help and to leave this M, and to take your kids with you. I realize that you may disagree with me, that you are afraid to take this step...but your H does not have control over himself and he abuses you emotionally, verbally and physically. And he's done it repeatedly. And he doesn't acknowledge it and has made no indication of changing it. And your children are learning this behavior. Your son is learning to treat women this way. Your daughter is learning to allow men to treat her this way.
I feel for you, Heather. I do. And I know H has his good points. And it's not bad ALL the time. But it's bad too much of the time. And the threat is always there.
I somehow think you will want to disagree with me and I think you will stay in this M for awhile yet...and that saddens me...but I just have been wanting to say this, because I see in no uncertain terms, a very harmful atmosphere for everyone involved, including your children. And I see you blaming yourself and walking on eggshells and justifying his actions way too often...not that you always do...not that you don't stand up for yourself at times...but the abuse is evident and you ARE an abuse victim, Heather.
I'm sorry. I know it's not nice to hear. And I don't want to attack you or make you feel that way. It's important and I hope you will be able to recognize your sitch. for what it is, because you don't have to live like that. And neither do your kids. And it is not normal...it's just what you have accepeted as your norm. And if you are, what do you think is going to be the norm for your kids??
Please get some good help. If your counselor isn't urging you to leave, maybe you should think about seeing another one? Is your counselor "solution-oriented"? Because there are solns. to your sitch. But I dont' think staying right now is.
Still Hopeful has said what I've tried to say, and she's done a beautiful job. The only thing I'd add is that I can't see any reason to wait until next time he's got his hands around your neck. The abuse is now because the totality of the relationship includes abuse and the relationship is ongoing.
Other than that, I suggest that you work on a letter. Work on it for a few days. When you feel good about it share it with your counselor. Share it with us. Then you can decide to give it to him or not. Perhaps emailing will be a good way for you to communicate with him for a while. Particularly if you can't talk w/o the likely risk of a fight.
Get your local support group in order.
But remember that you are a fine person. You are all that you need to be. We all see a very strong and considerate woman. We see a loving woman. We see a woman getting abused. And you have options.
Please open yourself to the options and investigate them thoroughly.
Hey guys, I'm here. I'm sorry I haven't at leasted posted something small....I just couldn't quite think of anything to say. There is a lot to swallow on this thread for me so far. And I've never been a swallower I still have my sense of humor, see?
I have been in heavy contemplation mode on the inside and I've been extremely busy on the outside with holiday stuff and work craziness. I haven't had the energy to initiate a conversation with H. But last night I did. I told him that I think I should move out after D2's birthday and that if he was willing to sign a 50/50 custody agreement, we wouldn't have to go through lawyers this time, at least not right away. We started negotiating what 50/50 means and in my head I was thinking.....'wow, this is it'. Then he says "You are gonna fu@k them up", meaning the kids. I said "H, this is much your decision as it is mine. I WANT to work this out. Maybe if you would agree to counseling or SOMEthing, we could work through some of these issues we have." And guess what he said? OK!! I about fell out of my seat. I just sat there. I said "Really? Individual AND marital?" He said "I have time constraints Heather, my job isn't as flexible as yours. I was going to do individual, but if you want marital, that's fine". So it sounded like he was already planning to do individual counseling on his own. Which is absolutely shocking to me. PLUS, he has an appt, made all on his own, with a ear nose throat doctor about a possible sleeping disorder (Bud, are you reading this?!).
We got into a pretty lengthy R discussion after that at which point I told him that I felt the way he has treated me has been abusive. I used the word. I gave examples. He told me I'm a button pusher. I said, so what. You choose how you react. You think you don't push my buttons too??? I told him that people have been supportive and understanding of me and that some have encouraged me to seek counseling with a women's shelter. At first he laughed, but that's ok. He didn't drag it out. I think he knows the truth.
He was honest about his feelings toward me. He says I've just been so hateful and so bitter for such a long time and that he has defense mechanisms galore. I asked him if, with counseling and learning how to treat one another with respect, if he has love in his heart for me. He said "Heather, I am so ready to be loved". I said "Receiving love is one thing and tends to easier than giving it...do you have love to give....to me?" He said "When we were getting along so well, didn't you feel it?" I did. I've said all along, I think deep down he does love me. He just has some problems with the way he operates and the way he views the world.
There is so much more. But I'm swamped. And before I get too far into it, I'd like to know your take.
Thanks as always. Hope you all are well. I promise to catch up on you all soon.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Sometimes you have to make clear that you're leaving unless something is done, in order to have a guy wake up. Maybe that's what's happening here.
Marital counseling with people who need individual counseling isn't as effective, but perhaps he'll get directed toward IC through this back door. Somewhere early along the route, he's going to have to work on his issues and behaviors. Hopefully, your MC will pick on his traits, and he's got a bushel full of 'em:
Then he says "You are gonna fu@k them up", meaning the kids. (Tried to control you when you showed you were serious about leaving)
He told me I'm a button pusher. (Plays the victim)
I told him that people have been supportive... At first he laughed (Control again, dismissing you with ridicule)
He says I've just been so hateful and so bitter for such a long time and that he has defense mechanisms galore. (Victim mentality again)
I asked him if, with counseling and learning how to treat one another with respect, if he has love in his heart for me. He said "Heather, I am so ready to be loved". (Even though your statement was about you, he only sees how it affects him, as he's the victim)
do you have love to give....to me?" He said "When we were getting along so well, didn't you feel it?" (Needs to learn how to better communicate that love. Though you did "feel it", your question wasn't about that, it was a direct question asking him if he loves you. There's a difference between someone who answers by saying "yes" and someone who turns the question around to you with an "I'm here, aren't I?" type of response.)
that and of course his tendency to become physically abusive, his tendency to "punish" you (I suppose that's all about anger management), how he role models in his interactions with the children, his selfish/unsupportive ways around the house, and who knows what else.
He just has some problems with the way he operates and the way he views the world.
Bingo!
The problem with counseling is that most people don't stick with it and keep on attending sessions, and/or they don't apply what they're learning. Only time will tell, you'll either see real results or not. In time, if you don't see significant changes, you can make your decision knowing that the relationship isn't working and you've both tried.
Heather...I think his willingness to consider counseling is *great* news! You know there's a lot still ahead of you, but I'm really happy for you that he agreed to this.
I still have my sense of humor, see?