Learning to Trust Myself IV

[heatherg]

My night got slightly more interesting as H and I discussed the remodeling project. He's decided that the higher house payment would limit his options too much as far as going back to school.

He wants to quit work, do part-time somewhere and go back to school. Which means I would have to pick up over $1,000.00 per month in bills. Hmm. I told him I didn't think the timing was right for him to do that. That it wasn't fair for him to expect me to be good enough to support him but not good enough to sleep in the same bed with. That led into a R discussion. The only things that were said that hadn't been said before were that he now does not want to remodel the house and he instead wants to quit his job and have me support him while he goes back to school. And he says I should do this regardless of the outcome of our M because he did it for me before we were married and there were no guarantees for him either. I told him that the circumstances were different back then and that we didn't have kids and the presumption was that we would always be together. Those two factors have changed significantly. Apparently, he feels that I owe him. I told him I already paid him back because he's benefited all these years from my higher education, as we've been able to afford things we never could have.

I told him that I've shown him I'm sorry by doing various things that I would need to see from him if the roles were reversed. He didn't dispute the things I said this time, but said that maybe he needs more, like for me to look back and see how poorly I treated him all those years and how much I hated him. That really pi@@ed me off. I am sorry for the way I handled myself at times, but I will never apologize for the way I felt. And if I bring up anything about the way he was he says "I changed". Geez, I forgot to ask him about the 180 he said I've done....isn't that change for me as well? He seemed to have forgotten that last night and so did I. I'll have to remember to ask him about that. But anyway, he wants all of these revelations from me and they're just not happening. My truths are my truths and just because he remembers or sees things differently doesn't change my perceptions. I told him I can let go of all of that if he would quit demanding things from me. At which point he tells me that he's not demanding anything from me, he doesn't want anything from me. He's only answering my questions and telling me why things aren't the way I want them to be. He can really tell me with a straight face that I made his drinking problem worse. Then if I accuse him of blaming me for the depth of his problem, he denies that he's said anything of the sort. I said we each dealt with things the way we knew how. We were young. I was not trained to help anyone with their addiction problems and I had no one to help me with my problems that resulted from loving an alcoholic. I really don't need to keep rehashing all that with him, unless of course he starts demanding apologies or for me to see things his way. That ain't gonna happen.

So, today I'm feeling pretty discouraged. No remodeled house. We've lived in this house for 11 years and we should have moved years ago. I have lived with things in this house that would drive other people crazy too, like vice grips on our faucet in the tub because the faucet can't be replaced (the pipes are made a different size these days) unless we remodel the whole bathroom. So, it has sat like that for at least 3 years now. Just various things like that that drive me crazy. I thought remodeling would alleviate some of my daily stress and would buy us more time plus set me up to be better able to afford the house than H. None of that is going to happen now. And if I did things his way, I would stay sleeping in the computer room on a daybed for who knows how much longer while I support him in his education efforts. And if we happened to reconcile during that time, it would still be another 4 years before I could get a new house. I don't mean to sound materialistic, but any woman can understand the stresses of living in a house with no storage, no place to put anything, toys everywhere. I literally have two closets in my house, no pantry. No counter space, limited cabinet space and UGLY black dishes that I've had since H and I got together because he liked them!!!!!!!

Sorry for the rant~

[heatherg]

I'm feeling a little introspective today, hence my several posts responding to myself, lol.


Last night during my phone conversation with H when he told me he didn't want anything from, didn't expect anything from me...I asked him "Really? So that means I should take off my wedding rings like you and start going out with my friends if I choose?" He said "It wouldn't surprise me." I sort of laughed and said "You know what? It shouldn't surprise you. A person can't live in this type of situation forever."

Do you think I sabotage my own efforts? Do you think that my focus on what H is doing to me rather than on what I've done to him could be his basis for saying that I'm not sorry?

I said "I've told you before that I'm not going to live forever in a M with no affection.." He sort of cut me off and was really irritated with that because, like I've posted previously, H has been more affectionate lately. He said "There *is* affection.....if you want no affection, I can show you no affection....things are improving but, as usual, you don't acknowledge it." He's right, I shouldn't have said there was no affection. I really meant "intimacy".

What a difficult battle. The misuse of one word makes me seem unappreciative and unobservant of the things that are actually going right.

Another thing I've noticed is that when he accuses me of not being sorry, it gets harder and harder to refute it because I'm sick of hearing that. Last night I actually said "Of course I'm sorry". Convincing huh? I didn't mean for it to sound so lame, but the fact is there isn't anything I can say that's going to change his mind. I guess this is where silence comes in huh? I need to just shut up. I've told myself that before and I just can't seem to do it it seems. Maybe I need to put the rubber band back on.....

[Jabez]

Do you think that my focus on what H is doing to me rather than on what I've done to him could be his basis for saying that I'm not sorry?

Holy smokes Heather! Will ya quit beatin yourself up? Are ya sorry? Have ya told him you're sorry? Have ya acted like you're sorry? I think the answer to all of these questions is yes, Yes, YES! If H doesn't know what it will take for him to feel like you are sorry, then beatin yourself up isn't going to help you.

He's right, I shouldn't have said there was no affection. I really meant "intimacy".

OK, so acknowledge your mistake to H and say that what you really desire is more intimacy.

The misuse of one word makes me seem unappreciative and unobservant of the things that are actually going right.

I totally understand how you feel. I used the word respect in an email to WAW yesterday and she came back with how I don't respect her b/c I'm continually late picking up or dropping off DD's. OK, there is some truth there. The last switch over I thought WAW was coming here and I was 20 minutes late getting there. About 2 weeks before, D13 & I were out for Chinese and the service was slow so we were 5 or 10 min late. WAW is very punctual. Anyway my reply went along the lines of, "Ok, shall I start a log of all the times DD's were dropped off after 9PM during the week?" Last night I felt awful for writing that. On Monday, I'm going to write back and say, "Yes, I agree being late does not show you respect, and I apologize for that. In the future I will be aware of the time so that I am not late. In what other ways do you feel I have not shown respect?" I really am sorry for my flip reply and I really am sorry for being late. Even if we D, I don't want our R to be contentious. Sorry to hijack your thread, I kind of put this out here 1) to let you know that others do the same and feel the same and 2) to see if my "180" makes sense or sounds too much like I'm sucking up and 3) if you agree w/my 180 then encourage a 180 for you.

I guess this is where silence comes in huh?

Patient heal thyself. Good answer.

Hang in there Heather. You sound a bit discouraged and maybe a bit overwhelmed. Maybe it's the extra company. In any case, take care of yourself.

Your friend, ~J

[NYsurvivor]

My tongue doth hurt from biting it. Thath why I'm lithping.

Last night during my phone conversation with H when he told me he didn't want anything from, didn't expect anything from me... he wants to quit his job and have me support him while he goes back to school.

That sounds like something he wants and is expecting.

And he says I should do this regardless of the outcome of our M because he did it for me before we were married and there were no guarantees for him either.

Ah, that was another time long ago, when things were much different. Your answer made sense to me.

He said "There *is* affection.....if you want no affection, I can show you no affection....things are improving but, as usual, you don't acknowledge it."

He claims he's capable of showing you no affection, huh? That suggests he truly has no real affection in him for you. And then he puts the blame on you saying it's you who's not acknowledging it. Just like he blames you for his drinking problem. Just like he blames you for the way he's treating you. Just like he blames you for the current status of the relationship.

Also, you two just continually argue about the topical rather than the substance. You both argue in very unproductive manners. It's time to bring in a MC. Him going along with that (and him subsequently working earnestly and productively on the issues and his issues) should be the requirement now for whether you decide to stay or leave, IMO. Stop this merry-go-round!

What a difficult battle. The misuse of one word makes me seem unappreciative and unobservant of the things that are actually going right.

Heather, had you used the word "initmacy" instead, my guess is he still would've found something to say to paint you as unappreciative and unobservant or something. He's very adept at turning things around on you. He does that. I've said this before and will say it again, that this will never end. This is him. That's the way he is. He will always "need more", in other words, he will alway have an excuse.

Do you think I sabotage my own efforts? Do you think that my focus on what H is doing to me rather than on what I've done to him could be his basis for saying that I'm not sorry?

Is this how abuse works where you can be thinking that?

While I do think that the way you argue with him is unproductive, you appear to have spent a lot of effort trying to reassure him of your faithfulness and have stuck through his tryannical immaturity for some time. How else are you supossed to say that you're sorry? It does sound like you've already come to terms with what "you did to him" and have tried to make amends. What you "did to him" is all in the past. So, to now focus on what's happening currently, well, that would need to be what he's now "doing to you", don't you think? Or perhaps more accurately, how he's not doing his part to repair the relationship and how he's sabotaging every step of the way to keep himself in power and control.

He's the one sabotaging your efforts, not you.

[Burgbud]

Do you think I sabotage my own efforts?

No, I don't. You're human and imperfect but you're making a tremendous effort in the right direction.

Do you think that my focus on what H is doing to me rather than on what I've done to him could be his basis for saying that I'm not sorry?

No, I don't. Ask yourself this, Heather: how does his story serve him? If you can answer that, you'll understand his basis for saying that you're not sorry.

Having said that, his basis really isn't that important; what's important is how his behavior is impacting you and your family, okay? If he'd rather hang on to his resentments than commit to fixing your M that's totally his business. Unfortunately, you can't touch that. You've thrown the door wide open to him to make a little effort and meet up with you again. He'll either walk thru or he won't.

Having said that, if it wasn't so destructive to me I'd make a deal with you right now. I'd go back thru my M and our time dating before that and I'd pull out every truly crappy thing I ever did to W. Then I'd stack up my mountain next to your hill and I'd hang on to mine until you agreed to let go of yours.

How much do you want me to do that? How much do you want me to look at every crappy thing W does to me now and try to figure out how it might be my fault, and how my past actions have contributed to the decisions she's making today?

That's how much I want you to keep doing the same thing to yourself.

Because (and I believe this is the case for Steff much more than it is for Matt) if I had been the H I should have been these many years, she wouldn't be doing this now. Despite that, I give her the decisions she's making today and I don't take even partial ownership for them. At least I try my hardest. I own how my past decisions have impacted the life I'm in now, and to a great extent how they've impacted the boys' lives. If I own the decisions Steff has made and is making, how does that help me? Does it make my life better? Does it make her life better? Or does it just lead me into making worse decisions in the present than I otherwise would?

Be well, Heather. Have a great weekend with your adorable kids!

[heatherg]

Thanks for sticking it out with me, I've had sort of a miserable day and I appreciate your thoughts.

Holy smokes

I'm from MI and I say that all the time, that is so funny to see you put it in writing, lol.

OK, so acknowledge your mistake to H and say that what you really desire is more intimacy.

I will definitely tell him that tonight.

to see if my "180" makes sense or sounds too much like I'm sucking up

I think it makes complete sense and I think it's a great idea to do that. It doesn't sound like you're sucking up. I'm really bad about validating and leaving it at that. I always have to have a "yeah but" in there eventually. Your statement doesn't have a "yeah but" and it sounds great.

You sound a bit discouraged and maybe a bit overwhelmed.

I really am. I was really looking forward to remodeling our house and I'm really disappointed. Throw on top of that finding out that my H wants to use me to get his education, yeah, I'm really discouraged.

My tongue doth hurt from biting it. Thath why I'm lithping.

Lol.

He's very adept at turning things around on you. He does that.


I know...and I can't seem to just keep my mouth shut. I get so defensive. The merry go round starts here.

So, to now focus on what's happening currently, well, that would need to be what he's now "doing to you", don't you think? Or perhaps more accurately, how he's not doing his part to repair the relationship and how he's sabotaging every step of the way to keep himself in power and control.

I think this sort of ties in with Bud's suggestion that I figure out how his story serves him.

You know, I'm about to say something that may be really stupid. I've had a bad day and I'm going to say it anyway. Today, I can see why some people don't leave their marriages until they find someone else. It's absolutely heart wrenching pain that makes my guts hurt to even think about facing all the problems divorce would bring all by myself. OMG. Why am I thinking these things?!

How much do you want me to do that? How much do you want me to look at every crappy thing W does to me now and try to figure out how it might be my fault, and how my past actions have contributed to the decisions she's making today?

I see what you're saying. But for you, rehashing that stuff is fruitless for the most part. Understanding it will help you in your next R. Do you think if you were reconciling that it may become important again though?

Here again, I say when you are the LBS, the things I do don't seem to make sense. But I'm not the LBS (that could be argued though I suppose). I'd be the one leaving and turning things upside down. That is *really* hard to do. Bud, no matter how much you think things through and/or blame yourself, you can't change what Steff has done. But I guess I just keep thinking that if I keep trying to see things from H's perspective that I will eventually find something that will talk me out of leaving, out of causing all this heartache for myself and my kids. I don't WANT to do it. This is absolutely killing me. I have been so hopeful. Even when H told me he would never kiss me again, I didn't feel this hopeless. All of a sudden, I feel like the wind has been completely knocked out of my sails. It may have more to do with the house than with H. I'm super disappointed. My house is fine, we've done a lot of work to it. I just don't want to sleep in a computer room anymore. I just don't want to feel like a second class citizen anymore. I know what you are all thinking....the house is not the answer. The house is not the problem. My M is the problem and the house is not going to solve that problem. I KNOW that. But it would have bought me some more time.

I just can't seem to get a grip tonight. Sorry.

[koshka]

Heather,

It's absolutely heart wrenching pain that makes my guts hurt to even think about facing all the problems divorce would bring all by myself.

Divorce sucks. The only way I can see how divorce ever helps anything is in the case where it ends an abusive M.

The term "WAS" does not apply to someone who tries to make their M better, Heather. It's the one who turns their back on the M, walks away from the call to forgiveness, flouts the obligation to improve their own self as a person and as a spouse. How long have you been working at "saving" your M? How long has H been working at it?

He's drinking on "non-drinking" nights? Take it from someone who quit smoking dozens of times--his addiction is alive and strong.

But I guess I just keep thinking that if I keep trying to see things from H's perspective that I will eventually find something that will talk me out of leaving, out of causing all this heartache for myself and my kids. I don't WANT to do it. This is absolutely killing me. I have been so hopeful. Even when H told me he would never kiss me again, I didn't feel this hopeless.

When OM-1's W came here, a year ago tonight, AAMOF, and confronted STBXW on the front porch, before my then nine year old daughter's eyes, I was still "hopeful" that I could "save" my M. I'd gone years between kisses, too. This was not the first A that I had known about (and there were more I didn't yet know about), but there was something different now, and that meant I could hope the sitch would turn around.

Heather, unless he makes sustained, serious effort to change himself, he's not going to "turn around." You are making the effort to improve yourself and have been offering him the chance to work together on your M. You didn't run off to find someone so you could hurt H. You didn't run from one A partner to another, living a lie for years. You made a mistake, you copped to it, you changed your life, and he demanded more. You are not able to give him what he wants, because what he will always want is "more."

I just can't seem to get a grip tonight. Sorry.

You're human, and you had a bad day. Go easy on yourself. Can you get together with your brother and do something fun tomorrow? Take the kids to see some of the decorated houses or to visit Santa? You're not going to solve this sitch in a day, but you might find some fun in a day with people who care about you.

And why not write? Just for yourself. If it's good enough, you can say, "I still got it," and if it's bad enough, you can use it in the fireplace!

Thanks,

K

[Burgbud]

Ah, good! A chance to respond, especially since I left something out the first time.

I said "I've told you before that I'm not going to live forever in a M with no affection.." He sort of cut me off and was really irritated with that because, like I've posted previously, H has been more affectionate lately. He said "There *is* affection.....if you want no affection, I can show you no affection....things are improving but, as usual, you don't acknowledge it." He's right, I shouldn't have said there was no affection. I really meant "intimacy".

I meant to say something about this the first time. This struck such a chord with me. This is my M, right here. All about being right and not letting the other person get away with anything. All about getting hurt feelings and getting defensive. Nothing about actually seeing what's going on with the other person, nothing about concentrating effort on making the R work. This right here is maybe the biggest difference maker I see between my old M and my next R. When my next partner says to me, "I've told you before that I'm not going to live forever in a M with no affection..", I'm not going to cut her off and argue about affection. I'm going to sit there thinking that I've been showing her affection but maybe she hasn't been seeing it, and I'm going to ask, "What do you mean?". And then she'll say that really she means she doesn't want to live without intimacy and we'll go from there. Or whatever. To me, that's the difference between trying to be right and trying to work on things. The whole point of being right is so you don't have anything you need to work on, right? So the next time you question yourself about stuff like this, Heather, ask yourself if you're arguing with H because you don't want to change. Because I've seen you making a whole lot of changes so I don't think that's the issue. And I'm not at all talking about changing into someone who doesn't mind sleeping in the computer room. I'm talking about legitimate changes that would make you a better partner. There's always something you could do but you gotta be reasonable, or else you're a perfectionist. And that ain't good for you or anybody.


I see what you're saying. But for you, rehashing that stuff is fruitless for the most part. Understanding it will help you in your next R. Do you think if you were reconciling that it may become important again though?

Absolutely no more important than it is now. These are things I need to accept about myself so I can start to change, whether my next R is with Steff or anybody else. And if I was reconciling, my current attitude may be even more important than it is now.

Imagine this: Steff wants to try again but believes every negative thing she did to our R from the moment we married until this very minute were a reaction to something negative I did and therefore everything's really my fault. Well, she'll allow that her reactions are 40% her fault but still 60% my fault. And so she continues being the same bitter, negative person she is so often. Am I going to be better served by 18 months of trying to figure out how she may be right, how her treatment of me is really my fault, or will I be better served to live the way I know is right and accept that her issues aren't because of me?

It's easier to see in someone else's case. I know; I've been there. I don't blame you for not wanting to leave any stone unturned in your quest to keep your family together. And I'm not recommending that you leave. If you asked me for my recommendation that might be what I'd say, but you're the one who has to make that huge decision if that's what this comes to. All I'm trying to say is, whether you leave or whether you stay, stop blaming yourself for what he does. Give him the respect of allowing him to own his own problems. It's harder than it sounds. But it's best for you and it's best for your M.

On another note, if you haven't followed her sitch, Piglet2's last couple of threads on the Piecing board might be interesting to you.

[HoldenC]

Heather,

I honestly haven't gone through your earlier threads but I think I see what you're going through. You can check out my thread and you'll see that basically I have a WAW and there are a thousand things around which I could build resentments.

Here's the thing though.

If I imagine her beating the front door down right now on her knees, begging to come back home...

I'm gonna let her in. I'm gonna make her some tea. I'm gonna open my arms and invite her to a hug.

I'm gonna sit down with her. If she needs to bawl and hyperventilate I'll get a paper bag and kleenex and sit close by. If she needs to talk I'm gonna listen and keep my mouth shut.

If she wants to stay the night I'm gonna hold her. If she wants to ML I'm gonna tell her that I love her more than ever but I don't think it's good for me to ML tonight.

If she wants to move back in I'm gonna suggest that she can hang here as much as she likes, but maybe it's good for her to hold on to her lease for now or find an apartment that isn't right next to the establishment where she's been working and the boss she's been 'ML' with. Maybe her folks' place or maybe I'll secure an apartment. Or maybe I'll say come on home.

But this isn't about punishment. It's about having sanctuary. I want for both of us to be able to have a safe place to go while we work through the beginning stages of what might be the hardest work we could do. And I'm not going to lock her out of the master bedroom. If She wants in she's welcome. If she wants sanctuary she can stay out. If I want sanctuary I can stay out. It's the marriage bed. If I don't feel safe in it, I need to spend the night someplace safe. Same for her. It's not my room. It's the room for the people who want to be married to each other.

And then we're gonna sell our souls if need be to get DB counseling. And I'm gonna set some boundaries about needing her to seriously look (with help) at learning how to communicate her needs to me, or getting them met in other places that are healthy and not destructive to either of us or our M. And I'm gonna continue with GAL.

And I'm gonna have loads of work to do on tearing down those resentments that I'm somewhat busy building temples to right now, despite my best efforts. It won't be healthy for either of us if I seek her help in razing them. It's for me to do and if I need help, I need to get help from some safe source. Like BigAl or BB or my AA sponsor or my C or my therapy group or all of the above.

His behavior is so disrespectful of you. There's young minds present, observing patterns of behavior between a H and W. These patterns will GREATLY influence their behaviors later in life. The wife is playing emotional stepanfetchit and the husband is locking her in a laundry room and bouncing her head with his foot. These things do repeat themselves, one generation to the next. Anything less than the same respect I should give my mother or sister or neighbor or daughter is abuse. You are not less than these people. You are a person too. No abuse. Not once in a while. None without sanctions. Simple as that.

Excuses can be made for how you didn't ____ so I'm not going to _____ but that's for children. Adulthood doesn't come with that luxury.

You didn't hire 3 goombas to hold your husband on the ground while they poured beer into a funnel they had jammed down his throat. Therefore, Nothing you did MADE him drink. And nothing you do now can make him drink. That's just 6yr-olds on a playground cr*p. A man doesn't make excuses for his behavior.

He knows he has a drinking problem and something has clearly stunted his maturation. Drinking will do that. It did it to me. I think depression does that. I think it did it to me.

Bitterness is his way of avoiding facing his own s**t and avoiding growing up. As long as he can keep you down by twisting your words and behaviors, by keeping you guessing about what he's thinking and how you should have used a synonym .... by telling you you're not good enough to kiss... He doesn't have to grow up and become a man.

I bet he had a s*****y childhood. A real shame. There are people who can help him with growing up and out of that. They have titles. Counselor, Priest, Sponsor, Shrink, Doctor, Life coach, Therapist, Grandpa.

NOT WIFE !

And definitely not pilsener or barkeep.

Your life with this adolescent alcoholic can be much improved if you get help for yourself. One place would be Alanon, but there are others.

But he won't change unless he wants to. And the more distance you put between him and you, and the more you work on yourself, the more motivation he will find IF he loves you.

Thanks for the soap box. Now I have to let go of you and pray that you've heard some truth in my rant.

God bless you.

Holden

[heatherg]

To all of my friends, who've taken the time to speak their truths to me today....thank you. Tomorrow is a new day.