Learning to Trust Myself IV

[NYsurvivor]

It's not hard to explain. There's even a word specifically for it. "Abuse." It might be hard to accept, but that's the truth. The "no kissing" shtick is abuse, too.

Yes, the situation was definitely abusive. I can't and don't see any reason to deny that. Overall though, I have a hard time saying my relationship is abusive or that H is abusive in general. Some people would probably say it is, although my tolerance seems a bit higher because I know he would not have acted in these ways before I did what I did. I feel responsible, so it's hard.

You're speaking like a true abuse victim does, Heather.

Some people would say your R is abusive - because it is. When does it become abusive enough for you? When the abuse is 24/7? How much salt do you need in your coffee before you consider that cup as bad? Your relationship is tainted with abuse, period. It's not about qualifying his abuse with your guilt, nor discounting his abuse with his episodes of being nice.

And you are not responsible for it, he is, as he's the abusive one, these behaviors generate from him, they are his choices and you know that.

It's also not about how he wasn't this abusive to you pre-A (though he was abusive then too, wasn't he?). He is NOW. More than ever. THAT's what counts.

If he wasn't generally abusive to you, you wouldn't be an abuse victim.

If you don't see it, take a good close look at his foot bopping your head next time you attempt to sleep in your own bed in your own home. In a non-abusive R, you just wouldn't see his foot there at all, let alone him trying to drag you out of the room. Plain and simple.

Oh, please, please, please get yourself to a counselor who can help you! These forums aren't enough for what you need.

[heatherg]

(K) Oh, yeah, before I forget. Written anything poetic lately?

No, I haven't. I've had a few thoughts but haven't actually written anything down. I really haven't written creatively since high school. When you mentioned it in Annapolis, it was the first time I had even considered writing in a very long time. I'm not a particularly good writer and my expectations of myself make it difficult to just let go and write. You should see how long it takes me to compile a post sometimes

(Jabez) Heather, I think that the main reason that I've been able to come to the point I'm at now is because of my faith in God.

Faith seems to carry a lot of people through dark times. I'm not a complete cynic-I'm glad people find the comfort they need when they need it. I can't quite apply it to myself, but I don't doubt that it has power.

There is a book by R.T. Kendall called "Total Forgiveness".

I'll check into it. I'm always on the lookout for book recommendations. I picked up a title from BB's old thread and I'm waiting for those to come via mail.

(Jabez) I may have missed something here, but does H have designated drinking nights? Are they just when he is home? Is this part of some agreement b/w you two?


Yes, H has designated drinking nights. It was his idea, something he did as he started to cut back on the amount he was drinking. It used to bother me that I never knew if he was going to want to stay home and get drunk or whether I could plan on having a normal evening. So, he implemented a routine whereby everyone would know what was going on. He's extrememly rigid about protecting those nights. He can have 'extra' nights so to speak now and then, like if we are on vacation or being particularly social or something. But NEVER does he skip a night. He'd have to be puking or someone would have to be dead...something of that nature.

(Jabez) I do agree w/your assessment of his drinking being an addiction. Is it an escape? Has he ever gone to AA or counseling for this?

Probably an escape, yeah. An escape from what, who knows. He's been drinking since I met him. He came from a normal home with normal parents who are still married. No scandals, no deaths, no abuse. What the hell does a 20 year old who comes from such a background have to escape from??
No, he's never been to AA, never will. If I am personally opposed to religion, H is even moreso and since AA really centers around God, he'd never give it a chance. Plus to go to AA means you have a problem. He's never actually admitted that.

(NY) You're speaking like a true abuse victim does, Heather.

I realize it may seem that way. But consider sexual harassment for a minute. It's not harassment unless the other person feels harassed or someone else overhears and they get offended. I realize that some of the things that H has done have been abusive. But overall, I don't feel like a victim. I can't quite explain why a few times isn't enough for me to label it as abuse, but for me, a few times just isn't enough, especially when the incidents are spread out by 12 years of marriage where there are lots of other factors.

(NY) It's also not about how he wasn't this abusive to you pre-A (though he was abusive then too, wasn't he?).

H used to have a lot of issues, some which may have been provoked by arguments between us. But I haven't seen that side of him in years. Toward the latter years of our M, I would say he was more withdrawn than aggressive.

(NY) If he wasn't generally abusive to you, you wouldn't be an abuse victim.

I'm not sure what you mean.

In a non-abusive R, you just wouldn't see his foot there at all, let alone him trying to drag you out of the room. Plain and simple.

I can understand this, it makes sense. It was definitely an abusive act...I just don't feel like I can make the leap to characterize my whole relationship as abusive. There's just more to it than that crappy night.

Oh, please, please, please get yourself to a counselor who can help you! These forums aren't enough for what you need.

I do see a counselor....when things were at that really bad point with H (around the time he locked me in the laundry room, etc) she wanted me to contact a shelter. Which I couldn't go through with. But things have calmed down a great deal and part of me wonders how much that has to do with the fact that I have changed my behavior, my reactions to him? Also, I think he feels much better that I've stopped seeing a lawyer and cancelled the court date. I think he felt backed into a corner before and our interactions were really, really bad. It was a very bad time.

[NYsurvivor]

(NY) You're speaking like a true abuse victim does, Heather.

I realize it may seem that way... I realize that some of the things that H has done have been abusive. But overall, I don't feel like a victim.

Well, you are. See, he's the abuser, and you're the victim. You may not "feel" like you are, but it really comes across, I'm sorry to say. You constantly make excuses for him, blame yourself, minimize what he does and its contribution to the relationship - and the biggest clue that you're an abuse victim is, you continue to subject yourself to it.

In a non-abusive R, you just wouldn't see his foot there at all, let alone him trying to drag you out of the room. Plain and simple.

I can understand this, it makes sense. It was definitely an abusive act...I just don't feel like I can make the leap to characterize my whole relationship as abusive. There's just more to it than that crappy night.

OK, there's the fact that you're not permitted to sleep in your own bed in your own home. That's more than one crappy night, right? That's every night, right? And dare you try to sleep there every night, every night would be a a likewise crappy night. It's more than just one night's event. It's not making a leap... this IS your relationship.

What else? Despite him getting physical against you should you wish to sleep in your rightful bed, he'll bed you sexually, no problem. There's the sexual use of you but the denying of intimacy - and respect and equality - vis a vis a tender kiss between husband and wife or permitting his wife to lay in comfort and peace and safety with her own head on her own pillow. That's more than one night. That's your relationship.

There's more, right? What else needs to be echoed back to you to show that the temperature of your relationship is that of abuse? I have no idea... forgive me, but, Hitler was nicer to Eva. What does H have to do? Actually fracture your skull open or bust your jaw one night while struggling against you? Or will you claim it was unintended and only an accident if and when such a thing happens, refusing to see that the physical aspect shouldn't have been there regardless? How much disrepect do you need before you see how he's disrespectful of you? The next big blowout you're going to excuse him claiming that it was your fault because you didn't say the right thing?

(NY) If he wasn't generally abusive to you, you wouldn't be an abuse victim.

I'm not sure what you mean.

You can't have an abuse victim without an abuser to abuse them... and he's most assuredly abusing you... and abuse victims gets subjugated into acting and thinking just like you are! That's what I mean.

I do see a counselor....when things were at that really bad point with H (around the time he locked me in the laundry room, etc) she wanted me to contact a shelter. Which I couldn't go through with. But things have calmed down a great deal and part of me wonders how much that has to do with the fact that I have changed my behavior, my reactions to him? Also, I think he feels much better that I've stopped seeing a lawyer and cancelled the court date. I think he felt backed into a corner before and our interactions were really, really bad. It was a very bad time.

So in other words, when things are bad between you two, H's prone to handle the bad times by doing things like locking you in the laundry room. And you stay in that relationship anyway... wow...

You don't see that as the touchstone of his character, huh? Looking at things only when they're peaceful - you cancel a court date, so he doesn't feel threatened and acts peaceful - and thinking that's a more realistic assessment, huh? Looking at the calm between the storms, then, rather than seeing the destructive storm for what it is.

The true measure of a person is how they act when things are bad. And if you think that when things are peaceful between the two of you, that that's a sign that things are not bad, think again. That's only the calm waters on the surface you're seeing.

I wish you the best, hun. I really do. I know this is mostly a site for LBSs who have been abandoned/betrayed by their WASs and that the sentiment here is to try and salvage the relationship... but there are circumstances, and LIMITS, when one SHOULD walk away from a relationship.

[heatherg]

You may not "feel" like you are, but it really comes across, I'm sorry to say. You constantly make excuses for him, blame yourself, minimize what he does and its contribution to the relationship - and the biggest clue that you're an abuse victim is, you continue to subject yourself to it.

Just keep in mind that this is the forum in which I'm weak. Where I admit I don't have a clue to fix what's happening and where I admit feeling helpless and hopeless. So that can come across as "poor little Heather" and I don't intend for it to. I am not "poor little Heather", I promise you.

OK, there's the fact that you're not permitted to sleep in your own bed in your own home. That's more than one crappy night, right? That's every night, right? And dare you try to sleep there every night, every night would be a a likewise crappy night. It's more than just one night's event. It's not making a leap... this IS your relationship.

This is his stipulation NY. I've broken our M vows. He doesn't want me in the marital bed. I hate that. I want to change, to fight it. But the fact is, I can't. This is how he feels he needs to deal with what *I* did. He didn't pick this punishment out at random~it is a direct result of something that I did.

he'll bed you sexually, no problem.

Yeah. This is a problem I've decided. I'm trying out a no-sex boundary. It's not ideal, but it's the only option really that I see. No bed? No kissing? No sex. The relationship will either die or it won't. We'll see.

There's the sexual use of you but the denying of intimacy - and respect and equality - vis a vis a tender kiss between husband and wife or permitting his wife to lay in comfort and peace and safety with her own head on her own pillow. That's more than one night. That's your relationship.

It's definitely been more than a night. But it's still been only 15% of our time together. Doesn't quite equal our entire relationship just yet. There is still time to heal, time to change.

The true measure of a person is how they act when things are bad.

I really do agree with you. I am choosing to stay in this R for now, but that doesn't mean I respect H all that much for the way he's acted.

there are circumstances, and LIMITS, when one SHOULD walk away from a relationship.

I know. I am heeding your words I promise. I can see where you are coming from and why you think the way you do. I'm still in try mode though. I don't know why. It's just what I need to do right now. It's easy to say you would leave. Would you be giving up half your time with your two year old and five year old and risking that you won't be there when they need you...even if it's only for a scraped knee? I CAN'T miss that. Not right now. They're just too young and I'm never going to get that time back. I can find another love any old time. Because that's actually what it comes down to. As long as H can't touch me on the inside, can't get to who I am, then I will stay near my babies and he can KMA. If he starts to affect my quality of life, really bring it down and I can't bring it back (like if things would have stayed really bad like they were before and I wasn't able to turn it around) then I will go. And then H can still KMA!

[NYsurvivor]

You may not "feel" like you are, but it really comes across, I'm sorry to say. You constantly make excuses for him, blame yourself, minimize what he does and its contribution to the relationship - and the biggest clue that you're an abuse victim is, you continue to subject yourself to it.

Just keep in mind that this is the forum in which I'm weak. Where I admit I don't have a clue to fix what's happening and where I admit feeling helpless and hopeless. So that can come across as "poor little Heather" and I don't intend for it to. I am not "poor little Heather", I promise you.

So... this is how you put forth your arguments, hmmm? We spoke about this once before.

It's not about you being looked upon or coming across as "poor little Heather". That's not the issue, nor my point.

This is his stipulation NY. I've broken our M vows. He doesn't want me in the marital bed.

He doesn't want you in the "marital" bed... but he doesn't mind having "marital" relations with you. C'mon!

Well, if you broke the marriage vows, then I say to him, say begone with you! Or, make it work. But don't make it abusive. That's not acceptable.

It seems to me that when you are physically aggressive against your wife, and restrict her in her own home, and chip away at her respect and comfort, and treat her like chattle... you're breaking the marriage vows.

This is how he feels he needs to deal with what *I* did. He didn't pick this punishment out at random~it is a direct result of something that I did.

"Punishment" it is. You live with a "punisher". A direct result of... no, not what you did, but of his need to punish you.

It's definitely been more than a night. But it's still been only 15% of our time together. Doesn't quite equal our entire relationship just yet. There is still time to heal, time to change.

OMG. You are measuring just how much abuse it takes before you'll term it abusive and you really think it has to be the entire relationship. So what if it's 15% or 18% or 22% of your time together? This isn't about how much time he devotes to his cruelty. Look at its severity instead, not its quantity. Don't you know that it only takes a few drops of poison to contaminate the entire glass of wine? And, BTW, to be kicked out of your own bed every night constitutes about one third of your life timewise...

Would you be giving up half your time with your two year old and five year old and risking that you won't be there when they need you...even if it's only for a scraped knee?

Oh yes. My mental well being is paramount. If I'm not happy and secure, certainly my children won't benefit having an emotionally hurt parent being disrespected by the other emotionally and sometimes physically abusive parent.

I can find another love any old time.

This isn't about about finding another love. That's not the issue... again. This is more about loving yourself.

Because that's actually what it comes down to. As long as H can't touch me on the inside, can't get to who I am, then I will stay near my babies and he can KMA. If he starts to affect my quality of life, really bring it down

But he already has.

And then H can still KMA!

Your tush is to good for him to kiss!

[heatherg]

It's not about you being looked upon or coming across as "poor little Heather". That's not the issue, nor my point.

I know it's not the heart of your point. I'm just trying to say that I come here with all the bad stuff and I have posted several times when I was feeling particularly "victimized". But I don't want to give the wrong impression. I'm a big girl and I can take care of myself with or without H.

OMG. You are measuring just how much abuse it takes before you'll term it abusive and you really think it has to be the entire relationship

That didn't exactly come across how I meant it! But even if you don't understand why I think the way I do, at least I can amuse you

My mental well being is paramount. If I'm not happy and secure, certainly my children won't benefit having an emotionally hurt parent being disrespected by the other emotionally and sometimes physically abusive parent.

My mental well being is fine. You disagree? I mean, I know I have my days where PMA is dragging. Don't we all?

This isn't about about finding another love. That's not the issue... again. This is more about loving yourself.

It would be very empowering for me to tell H to get lost. But for me, loving myself is not the paramount issue. Not at this time in my life.

If he starts to affect my quality of life, really bring it down

But he already has.

He has affected the quality of my marriage. My marriage is not my life. There is much more to my life and I have to be thankful for the things that are good.

I know what he's doing is crap. But I'm not at my breaking point. Far from it. Some days that scares me. Why am I not fed up with the BS? I worry that maybe there's something wrong with me, that I can stay here and put up with this. And to people such as yourself, who think I should leave, I must appear sick. Or weak. Or both. I hate that. That's probably why I rationalize NY. Because I am making a conscious decision to stay and I have to make that decision right. For now. I don't want to be seen as a victim, or weak, or sick. And so I try to explain myself. But apparently, it only makes me seem blind.

You've been honest and direct with me and you've said you want the best for me. I appreciate that, those are the hallmarks of a friend.

[VJ39]

Hi Heather...I haven't posted to you much, but I just wanted to jump in here.

I know what he's doing is crap. But I'm not at my breaking point. Far from it. Some days that scares me. Why am I not fed up with the BS? I worry that maybe there's something wrong with me, that I can stay here and put up with this. And to people such as yourself, who think I should leave, I must appear sick. Or weak. Or both. I hate that.

I'm not sure it's that you appear sick or weak, or even that I fear you are rationalizing. I know there have been many times when I read your sitch that I am just flat out worried for you...and not just worried that your H might hurt you the next time he gets physical. Worried that if you keep living in the situation you are in long enough you will start to think that it's normal, or that you deserve these silly punishments he puts on you because you made a mistake. You don't deserve this, no matter what you did.

Your H hasn't even started to truly forgive you...and until he does, your relationship can't improve. If he does, then I think things could work for you, but if not, he will just keep doing what he's doing. And you can't convince him to forgive you no matter how long you put up with this - it has to come from his heart, not from you being on your best behavior.

I understand your kids are young, and I can see your point on this. At one point early on in my sitch, my H said to me "we can stay together for the kids, if you are willing to live like that. I'll stay, we can live like roommates, and get them raised". I laughed at him, but at times I wonder if that would have bought me some time. So I do understand the temptation of thinking "Ok, maybe next week, next month, will be the time it starts to turn. I can't give up now". (By the way, I'm glad now I didn't consider it. I feel much better about myself, divorced and struggling in many ways, than I did living with his constant disapproval. But it was hard to get to this point, no doubt)

But you've put in your time Heather, and you are the only one who can decide how much more you can give. As long as you are *absolutely* certain that you are coming at this with an attitude of strength and not fear...then I think you are living true to what you believe. Just be very careful you are there for the right reasons.

And if he starts that crap again, just leave. That's it. A police report for abuse will go a long way toward getting you full custody.

Have a good night!
VJ

[heatherg]

Hi VJ, thanks for stopping by!

Worried that if you keep living in the situation you are in long enough you will start to think that it's normal, or that you deserve these silly punishments he puts on you because you made a mistake. You don't deserve this, no matter what you did.

Yeah. I know. I wouldn't say that I feel my life with H is normal enough for others to consider it normal, but then again, with the drinking our R would probably never have been considered normal by most people. I definitely do "normalize" things just enough so that I can get by. Your concern brings that to the surface as a very valid point here. I can't forget that it's not normal and I think the no sex boundary is going to help remind me of that. My R is not normal. And yeah, some days I feel like I deserve everything I've been dished. But most days I know that anyone with an oz of forgivenss in their hearts wouldn't think that. And there do seem to be differing opinions on this, as some people have admitted that their behavior could be very similar to H's under these circumstances. So, I don't know what to think. Some people seem to see that I've made my own bed and others see that I have paid the price and now need to get out. I don't know how to feel. I want to do what is right. People tell me that whatever I feel is right. But I also know how people tend to color their world in order to see what they want to see. I don't want to be like that so I heavily rely on other peoples' perceptions. And I'm really getting opinions on both sides of the spectrum on this. I'm just flat out confused as to what I should do or how I should feel.

Your H hasn't even started to truly forgive you...and until he does, your relationship can't improve.

Your're right. He hasn't. He's waiting for me to be sorry to him, which leads me into your next statement.....

And you can't convince him to forgive you no matter how long you put up with this - it has to come from his heart, not from you being on your best behavior.

He doesn't seem to get this. That forgiveness is a decision. He truly believes it has to be earned.

At one point early on in my sitch, my H said to me "we can stay together for the kids, if you are willing to live like that......By the way, I'm glad now I didn't consider it. I feel much better about myself, divorced and struggling in many ways, than I did living with his constant disapproval.

Who actually filed or instigated the separation? I could be dead wrong, but I'm putting my money on the idea that it wasn't you. If H was for D and was going ahead with getting it taken care of, I could live with it. I can deal with tough circumstances that are thrown my way. I have a much harder time creating those circumstances myself. Plus there is tons of support for people who've been "left behind", the assumption is that they are the good guys. The attidtude toward the one leaving is "well, you're bringing this upon yourself". Do you know what I mean?

As long as you are *absolutely* certain that you are coming at this with an attitude of strength and not fear...then I think you are living true to what you believe.

Well, I can't say there is no fear. There is a lot of fear. Fear for my kids and my relationship with them mostly. I fear that if I left, they would see me as someone who left *them*. Mommies aren't supposed to do that. This mommy certainly doesn't want her kids to think that. I fear that they would prefer to live with their Dad and that my relationship with them would suffer severely. I fear that they would not adjust well, that behavioral or emotional issues could develop. And I fear that every bad thing they did or felt would be attributed to the D...by me. I would be forever guilty. You see? I'm a basket case of worry. And when faced with all that.....the fact that my H is an a@@ seems so minute.

And if he starts that crap again, just leave. That's it. A police report for abuse will go a long way toward getting you full custody.

Yeah, now that things have calmed down considerably, I can't see myself allowing that to occur again. Of course, that may just mean that I'll avoid the situations that would/could bring it on. Like going out or sleeping in my bed. Those two things would aggravate our situation considerably I think. But I don't think I'll avoid going out forever. Sleeping in my bed, I don't know. No point in forcing myself somewhere I'm not wanted. I guess I could do it as a last resort to separation. So much to consider. But if he got physical with me again, I'd call the police, I'm pretty positive of that.

Thanks again.

[VJ39]

Hi again Heather!

Who actually filed or instigated the separation? I could be dead wrong, but I'm putting my money on the idea that it wasn't you.

You're right. I turned down his offer for a "convenience" marriage (don't know if he meant it or not) and said I wanted a real marriage, with both of us fixing what we had done wrong to hurt each other. He said he had absolutely no interest in fixing anything or working to heal our R...he contacted an attorney very shortly after that, and I started to think about moving back toward my family. So I see your point - it's easier when it was out of my hands, and I just had to go along with his decision.

You sound good. You sound like you know what you need to work through and you know what you are up against. Hang in there!

VJ

[heatherg]

Thanks VJ! Hey all, it's Friday night!! Yey! I got to go to karate tonight and that will probably be the only 3D adult interaction I get this weekend, lol. I've actually been a little disappointed in my school because many of the black belts that I enjoyed working with left to go to another school that one of the other black belts opened. I would check it out, but I think it's even farther away from my house than the one I go to now, which is out of the question. So, all of a sudden looking for a new school a little closer to home doesn't seem like a bad idea. Even the black belt who walked up to me out of the blue and told me I was 'gorgeous' is gone now. Tonight I had to work with a bossy yellow belt who irritates the heck out of me. Oh well, I don't need nice good looking guys giving me such compliments right now anyway. Right? Right.


H comes home next Friday and it looks like he'll actually get to stay home for a while. X-mas shopping will be a whirlwind when he gets back b/c we really haven't done anything yet. So many *people* at the malls.....ugh.

My brother is still staying with me, he moves into his new townhouse sometime next week. Which is fine because his animals are about to drive me nuts. My house is too small as it is, hence all the talk about remodeling. Throw another person and a dog and a cat into the mix....plus the fact that my brother has to work later than me usually, so I'm the one that potties and feeds them.....yeah, I don't think I'll be missing them (the animals) too much. And it cured any thoughts I was having about being able to handle a dog right now!!

Well I hope everyone is having a great Friday night...perhaps more exciting than mine.....watching the news and drinking a Mikes.