Learning to Trust Myself IV

[heatherg]

There were so many helpful posts on my last thread. I read through them again and again.

(Bud)He'd rather be bitter, angry and resentful than happily married. Somehow that's working for him.

H has always seemed more comfortable being....unhappy, yes. I've described in past posts as 'melancholy' I think. Not depressed per se, just not particularly happy. You know, he says I'm a 'bitter and spiteful woman'. So it's funny that you should call him bitter and resentful. I remember a particular time when he called me that. We were talking about his pornography habit and he told me he could not discuss it with me because I am a bitter and spiteful woman. Oh, and his alcohol usage was always off limits too because I only 'made things worse'. Oh, and when I asked him why he lied to me about something he told me it was because I 'attack him'. He said 'why should I feel the need to lie, it's because you attack me'. One thing sort of led to another here, but do you see the pattern? So who knows who is bitter and resentful, we probably both are. I am definitely ready to let it go....but not until he stops this nonsense. I want a relationship. I don't know how to *not* be resentful of how he keeps these things in place that prevent a relationship from occurring. How do I manage that? I'm not a 'bitter person'. I bitter towards H. That's it.

(NY) Bottom line: H's behaviors are aimed at keeping you away, pure and simple.

Yes, it seems so. I guess there's nothing I can add to that.

(Jabez) If you start a dialog stating that your goal is to come to an agreement on how and when you can move back into "our bedroom", then your are respecting his feelings. Ask him what it will take for you to move back in.

I can try this. A conversation that's pointed and solution oriented. Good idea, thanks. I've tried telling him how I feel about it, etc. But I haven't tried taking the solution approach. Ok, so I'm not there. What needs to be accomplished first that he sees as currently lacking. I will give it a try. Just for the record, my sense is that he will not have anything much to say. I'm 99% positive that this is about control, so no matter what I try to do to respect his feelings, he'll put it out of my reach. By avoiding, redirecting, ignoring, or deflecting. But there's that 1% chance that you're right and that's why I'm here so I will give it a try. We're talking about buying land and building a house. We're supposed to be going to look at a piece of land when he comes home for Thanksgiving. My feelings are really mixed. On the one hand, how can we possibly be thinking of making this huge investment together when we cannot even kiss or sleep in the same bed? On the other hand, maybe it's what we need. I think if I had a real bedroom, a place for my stuff and a place that's quiet that I could be calmer about letting this ridiculousness run it's course. It brings me back to something NY said thought "Your life with this man constitues always trying to better your circumstances, but it never works out that way." So true. The house would be another example of that. But my point here is that I think H really wants it. So I can use this discussion as a platform to talk about the setting some guidelines or criteria or whatever for the things that need to change in order to put us in a place in our R where we could both be comfortable making such an investment. We'll see.

(Jabez)...moving back into the room is a step in healing your R/M and that is what you want to do.

True, and you would think that wording it this way would comfort him. But it won't. It will threaten him. Because he doesn't *want* to heal the R/M. I wish I was way off base in saying that, but I really don't think I am.

(Jabez) "I really want to get past what happened, I'm asking for you to gorgive me. I am sorry for what happened. I want to understand how you feel, what it is that it will take for you to forgive me. I want to know what it is that will help you see that we can have a happy and healthy future together. If you don't believe me, and don't want me, then I don't see much point in us staying together."

You're giving me some really good ideas here, thanks. You see that last sentence, the part about not seeing much point in staying together if the former is true? The kids, Jabez, the kids. H will latch onto that statement and tell me how selfish I am, I can only think of myself, I don't give a damn how this will affect our kids as long as I get what I want. I'm not trying to shoot the ideas down; I fully intend to use them. I'm only testing my psychic abilities, lol.

(Bud) Don't let your strength trap you just because you can take it.

Wow. Thanks. That's one way of looking at it. The other is that I'm absolutely too weak to look at my children and tell them that this is the way it needs to be. Because it doesn't need to be this way. I'm not dying, H is not being outwardly mean to me. We are getting by. I just don't know how to get to a point where I say to my kids "I know you won't be happy if we split. But Mommy won't be happy if we stay together. My happiness is more important, you see?" My family swears this is H brainwashing me, but I swear to God that although I haven't always thought of it this way, putting my happiness above theirs, H has indeed done a wonderful job of pointing it out.

(Bud) If you have to leave to make your point, that doesn't make you the bad guy.

This is so hard because I've always valued H's opinion more than anyone's for so long. If he tells me I'm the bad guy, then I must be. H told me yesterday that he watched Spanglish. He said it "brought back a lot". I asked "Why did you see us in them?" He said "I saw a lot of myself in him". I said "And I suppose you saw me in her?" He said "I can't really say that, but..." I said "But what?" He said "Did I say but? I didn't mean to". If you've seen that movie, you will know that she was portrayed as a very ugly selfish woman, likely going through a MLC. Adam Sandler was portrayed as a laid back, gentle, fun-loving kind of guy who valued his kids above all else. I was so angry when I hung up the phone because I don't remember the parts in Spanglish where A Sandler barred her from her room or fu@ked her but wouldn't kiss her or insisted that they stay together for the sake of the kids but yet wouldn't wear his ring. I missed the parts where he got physical with her and got drunk and refused to let her sleep. I missed the parts where he locked her out of her house and kept her kids from her. I also missed the parts where he was drunk half the time. I guess I need to rewatch that movie, huh? I SOOOOOOO wanted to point this out to him you guys. I am still VERY, VERY tempted. He is so convinced that he is a good person because he genuinely loves his kids. That somehow excuses everything else he does and thinks. And I am not as good of a person because I would be willing to leave this marriage.

(S_H)When I say you are doing great, Heather, I mean it. You are dong a lot of introspection, thinking things through and putting in a noble effort towards your M for your family.

Thank you. I appreciate your words very much.

(S_H) I think your question about whether you should be in your bed or not is actually not the underlying issue, Heather. The real issue is the entire pattern of this R.

You're right. But I think me taking a stand and insisting that me feelings be put on equal ground with his is the only way that the underlying issue will ever change. That is what makes the bed issue so potentially important. Thing is, I can't determine if this issue should be used as such a platform because of the way it ties in with the A. It just might not be the right thing to take issue with. It's possible that I may not understand or agree with his reasons, but that it doesn't really matter. Maybe after what I've done, I just have to accept it. Accept it on his terms and in his timeline.
Before my A, we were really at a point where I went out every Friday night. I had quite a bit of freedom. I wasn't happy I had that freedom. I wanted a R, not freedom. I tried to get him to come with me, he never wanted to. He never tried to hold me back from going. It was like he didn't even care. Fridays were his night to get drunk so I always felt like he actually liked it when I left because then he could do what he wanted without me being around. As long as he could get drunk, he didn't care about me. That's how I felt. But my point is that he was actually the opposite of controlling before the A. H hadn't exhibited controlling behaviors since the earlier years of our R, aside from when we'd argue or fight.

(S_H) Tell me more about this abusive behavior. Is this new or has this been going on?

This is hard for me to address because abuse is a hard word for me to swallow. I'm tough and strong and independent. How do you "abuse" someone who describes herself as that? I don't know. H has never hit me. The abuse is mostly mind games. Intense emotional reactions. There have been physical instances, but not too many. The worst instances were in the beginning when the A was revealed and then when I tried to return to my bed. The latter still upsets me to think about.

(S_H) What were conditions like pre-A?

I answered this a little above. Pre-A, the drinking was killing my feelings toward H. That pretty much summarizes everything. I hated him at times for continuing to do it even though he knew what it was doing to our R. And then of course, there was pornography which I never really grasped the full effect of because I didn't allow myself to determine how often and what he was actually doing. Still don't know. But the good things-H was very affectionate. Loved to cuddle and sit close. Would give me massages all the time (on the nights he was drinking, out of guilt I think). Was great at buying anniversary, b-day, x-mas gifts. We were always out and about as a family. Eat out a lot. But we did not go places together, without the kids. I always felt like a pretty low priority overall.

(S_H) And determine if you think he is moving towards what you consider tolerable or not

Wow. This one is tough because H works at a snails pace. It took him 10 years to cut his drinking down from 6 nights a week, god knows how many at a time to 2 nights a week 12 at at time. He can't understand why I wasn't happy with that progress. Sure, I'm happy for him. He apparently has/had a problem that he was managing in his own way. He's no longer drunk 6 nights out of the week. That's great for him. Unfortunately, our R took a serious beating over those years and the improvement was not enough to negate it. So, I can see improvements from when H first found out about the A. But it seems that everyone is in agreement that once again, H is moving at a pace that is riduculously slow.

(S_H) Heather, if he refuses to work with you on this, then you cannot fix this M alone.

I don't even know what would constitute working on it. You know, when I read the five LL, I couldn't pick a language. I just kept thinking, anything would be good. The same thing comes to mind here. H really does think that the A diminishes my needs. At least until we get back to "ground zero". And before we get there I need to be sorry *to* H, which I haven't figured out yet.

Wow. This has been a lot. And I still have more. But I'll save it!

[heatherg]

Something else that discouraged me during the conversation with H where he mentioned Spanglish....
H's truck has a flat tire. He is coming home for Thanksgiving on Tuesday. He said he would be in "late Tuesday". I asked "So late that you'll have to take a cab?" And he said something like "Well, my truck has a flat tire, so I'll probably have to take a cab anyway. I'm just hoping that my flight comes in late so that it's not an issue." I said "Well take a cab if you feel you need to, but it's an issue regardless of what time your flight comes in." He said "Oh, it's definitely an issue. But usually it's an avoidable one. It wouldn't even be coming up if my truck didn't have a flat tire."
He really means it. He's never going to ride in my vehicle again is he? I went to a Nissan dealership to look at a Pathfinder, but I've had a habit of buying a new car every two years and the negative equity has caught up with me. I really need to stay in this lease until it's up. Three years. S5 will be 8 before I can get a new vehicle. Unless of course I want to increase my car payment by $100-$150 for a lesser car than I currently have (a great 4X4 Trailblazer).

I'm just so discouraged. I was doing pretty good for a while, pretty convinced that I was going to be able to do this for a while longer yet. But I'm not doing a very good job all of a sudden.

One of the things H tells me is that I set the tone for our R. That if I'm pleasant, then we're pleasant as a couple. If I'm not pleasant, then neither is our R. To a certain extent, this is true. On the days that I can ignore the thoughts about not having my needs met or ignore the facts in our R that bother me so much, (pre-A, I had to ignore that he drank too much) then I am pretty pleasant and he is receptive. But on the days when I feel like I need more, but know I can't have it, I'm not so pleasant. And he is not so receptive. And so it goes.

I'm beginning to feel that I will never know what the right decision is. I'm scared to death of spending the rest of my life in limbo, waiting for change that never comes. Maybe I'm married to my ambivalence. Maybe somehow this is working for me, this indecision.

It's only been a year and a half. That's really not that long is it? I'm worried about spending the rest of my life like this, but isn't that a little dramatic?

[StrongNSassy]

Oh my can I ever relate to the car issue!! I had a gorgeous Escalade...we drove that puppy all over the country. I had a midlife crisis and traded it in for a (sit down folks) baby blue convertible vw...yuppers...I had always wanted one growing up...one day I was driving down the street...oh Dave was sooo furious...I didn't consult with him first, big mistake...big mistake...I usually wasn't like that...we always made decisions together...but something inside me went nuts when I saw that car. Well I had it for 2yrs. 2yrs of him making constant fun of it...called it the turd mobile. Finally in June, I decided enough is enough. He was right, it was totally not practical...put all the wear and tear on his car because he would never be seen in it...and poof 3 wks after getting the Explorer...he's gone...but I am much happier in this car, sans the increase in payment by almost 200 a month!! ARGH!!!

My heart goes to you for the drinking issue so much Heather...as you know Dave is a drinker...used to be a big drinker, cut it down while we were together and now...the depression/drinking/depression...what a vicious circle it is...but strangely enough he mentioned something about getting tired of it all...hope that's a good sign!!

Keep your head up high...my warmest thoughts for a lovely Thanksgiving.

Why do you think he puts the pressure on you for the state of your R?

[Jaylyn]

Heather,

Just a quick note to let you know I am thinking of you. I know the whole drinking thing is really tough. As if the affair doesn't mess up their heads enough, alcohol just adds fuel to the fire.

Take care of YOU.

[Burgbud]

Hey Heather! I had a thought or two about your post while out bagging leaves (so many leaves, so many leaves, so many leaves...huh? oh, I'm okay...so many leaves...).

You know, he says I'm a 'bitter and spiteful woman'.

Heh. I've only met you once but I've described you since then as 'lively'. Neither 'bitter' nor 'spiteful' ever crossed my mind. And I'm quite sure you're aware that you're not bitter or spiteful. Didja ever notice how people tend to assume others react and feel the same way about things as they do themselves? Happy, trusting people tend to believe the folks they meet are happy and trusting also. Bitter, spiteful people tend to see those qualities in the people around them. It's what they're used to, and what makes sense to them.

On the one hand, how can we possibly be thinking of making this huge investment together when we cannot even kiss or sleep in the same bed? On the other hand, maybe it's what we need.

Heather, this is scary as hell. It makes me think of couples who think having a baby might fix their M. The R needs to be fixed *before* actions are taken to lock you both into it. H really wants this? I truly don't think he's sitting back and scheming evil plans, but of course he wants this. It's exactly what he wants. He doesn't want to leave so he doesn't mind being locked in. He's worried about you leaving, and this makes it tougher for you to do that without requiring any changes on his part. It's win-win, but unfortunately that's him winning twice.

This seems to me more like an opportunity for him to start prioritizing your R. Why would you move into a house with another bedroom you won't "be allowed" to sleep in? Why would you live in a house where you'll never be kissed? Why would you park a truck he'll never sit in in your new garage? You WOULDN'T. You would bring a renewed, beautiful R to a new house, though. Is he willing to work toward that?

He is so convinced that he is a good person because he genuinely loves his kids. That somehow excuses everything else he does and thinks. And I am not as good of a person because I would be willing to leave this marriage.

This is once again an instance of him seeing the world through his own lenses, isn't it? Conveniently for him, he makes loving the kids the only important test of character. Tell you what, how about if we make working toward a healthy R with your children's mom the only important test of character? Who's the bad guy then?

Don't accept his definitions, Heather. Listen to yourself, your counselor, your brother, us, whoever. He defines his world like he does so he can be like he is and feel okay about it. You're in his world so he tries to define you. Doesn't mean he's any more right about you than I am, or anybody else who's met you. Do not accept the categories he puts you in, because he does that to serve himself, not you.

BTW, I'm not ready to accept that he genuinely loves his kids. If you did decide to leave, would he put the interests of the kids above all else? Or would he try to turn them against you, to paint you as the bad guy to them? When he was the only one who was "allowed" to take them to day care, was that because he genuinely loved them? I think he genuinely loves himself, and being good to his kids is how he manages to feel like a good person. But I haven't seen much evidence of him putting their interests above his own.

Heather, you have reasons to stay in your M and you may have the ability to make it work despite the direction it's currently heading. But if you do make it work, it'll be because you learned to look at your stitch with steely-eyed realism, no longer accepting his self-serving views of you and your M. Then you can calmly stand to-to-toe with him and discuss how things need to be. And if he can't calmly stand toe-to-toe with you, you'll know that's his fault no matter how he tries to paint it.

You're great, Heather; don't settle for being less than you are.

[heatherg]

I just got off the phone with H. We talked for about an hour and a half. The last thing that was discussed was the 'no kissing rule'. I asked how long that was going to be in effect and he said forever.
I just don't even know what to say. I know I can't live like that forever and I just don't know how to face what that means.

[Burgbud]

I am so, so sorry Heather. That's unbelieveable. Did he really say forever? I know he said forever or you wouldn't have posted it. Unbelievable. I am so, so sorry.

Look, it's late, so you're gonna get exactly what I think. He can't forgive you. Because he is an IDIOT. And he wants you guys to split. But he lacks the courage to do it. And he knows everybody will tell him he's an idiot if he does. So he's going to make you miserable until you do it for him. It's so unfair as to be indescribable.

Maybe he'll call back tomorrow and apologize. I hope so.

But Heather, you're lovely. You're smart, you care about people, you love your kids, and you're full of life. You have so much more to offer the world than you're able to in your current sitch it hurts me. If you end up having to cut Matt off from your life, it'll be like cutting a sand bag off a helium balloon. You'll be soaring.

Okay?

Be good to yourself and good to your babies. You can still have a great Sunday. Why not?

[heatherg]

Thanks Bud. You're a great friend. I intend to have a great Sunday. I'm getting a massage at 12:30 and I absolutely cannot wait. My back feels like it's been neglected, for, well about as long as it's been neglected

Yep, he said forever. I let a few minutes pass. I asked him if he really meant it and he said yes. He said every time he kissed me it would make him miserable, reminding him of OM. His question to me? Am I supposed to make myself miserable to make you happy? The answer to that of course is no. The thing is, he will be miserable anyway if I leave (if only because he has to spend half the time away from his kids). And so will I. But at least then it will be even right? UGH!
And he wants you guys to split. But he lacks the courage to do it.

If this is true, it's not apparent even to him. As a result of his unwavering ability to carry out his convictions of the things he will no longer do, I am starting to realize that this truly is my H. This is a man who views the world in a very unusual way. But I'm really starting to think he's being honest. He could totally be calling my bluff, and he'd be doing an incredible job, but I'm starting to back off the idea that he's got ulterior motives in doing the things he does. Since things have been calmer between us, he has not wavered too much. He has said he can see us sleeping in the same bed, but nothing has actually changed as far as where we sleep. The dynamics have changed dramatically between us. I feel that is probably due to him being gone so much, but my point is that even when things are calm and we are having a semi-normal conversation he can calmly state his reasons and his thoughts as though they are completely reasonable. So, I think these are his true feelings and he really thinks we can live together taking our relationship "day to day" as he says (he won't give me any goals or any specific things that he'd like to change or how he'd like to be, he just says "I'm taking it day by day"). He doesn't sound bitter or vengeful. He wants to parent our children and make our M as pleasant as possible although it's not a top priority. He says he is not miserable, that he can be happy like this. But there are some things he'll just never do no matter how pleasant our M is. Kiss me or ride in my truck. You know, I've heard that one person always wants the relationship more and is willing to prioritize it. That's me, right? Ok, so in that respect, maybe H's responses aren't all that unusual. In fact, they could be considered very encouraging if not for the 'no kissing' thing. Maybe I shouldn't be focusing on that? Maybe I should be focusing on what's good?
When I bring up how important it is to show our children the correct concepts of family and marriages and how daddys treat mommys and vice versa he just says that is not worth divorcing over. He said I can think of a lot more important things to teach our children.

So Bud, I just can't believe that he really wants to split. He doesn't. This is truly my H's way of viewing the world. He mocks me because I get upset that I "can't have everything I want". "The way I hear it, we're getting divorced because I won't kiss you". To him, it's methodical.
I think, on this board I focus on the bad stuff because that's what I need help with. But last night, he was encouraging for all that is going good in our R and said that he feels we are in a better place now than we were three years ago. I'm starting to get a better feel for what he's talking about when he refers to being sorry to him. I can't express loving thoughts or feelings toward H because there aren't any. I can't take his face in my hands and tell him how sorry I am and how stupid I was to risk all the great things we had. Because I don't think we had anything all that great. So when I talk, I talk almost as though this has happened to someone else. I talk about breaking the trust in the marriage and betraying him and that I'm sorry for that. I think he needs me to lovingly tell him things like "You didn't deserve this" and be affectionate or something. But I can't, because I don't FEEL it. Especially not now. Those feelings have to come back in time and I can't fake it til I make it like I originally thought I could. It's funny because before I even found DB (and Anna!), probably in the first week after my affair, I can remember telling my SIL that I just didn't have those feelings for H, but that I was going to try to fake it til I make it. Weird, huh? Now, here I am. Guess I didn't do a very good job of faking it. I know that I have love for him in my heart and it could be nurtured back to a very strong love. But it doesn't just happen. And those feelings can never be nurtured back with someone who will never kiss me again. I think I'm going to contact a DB counselor for their thoughts and guidance on this.

Thanks for being here for me with encouraging words. For the most part, my tears are for my kids not for him.

[heatherg]

The other night when I talked to H on the phone, I ended the conversation in tears and just said that I needed to go.
Since then, I've tried not to dwell on my M so much, as though it's the only important thing in my life. But I haven't had much luck.
Right now, I can only think of two things to do. Sometime this weekend, I will broach this subject again. I will tell H that I am not asking for any guarantees. I only want to know that his hope for the future is the same as mine and that we intend for time and some effort on our behalves to take us there. And that my goal is for us to resume a sense of normalcy in our M as far as what we would expect in a new M to someone else. Wearing our rings. Sleeping in the same bed. Kissing. Can he bring himself to say that he hopes for these things too and would expect that we will get there in time if things continue on the path we are on? Off the record, that is all I need to have hope.
If he absolutely cannot tell me anything of that sort, then my only leverage that I have left is to continue working on my interactions with H....I think it hit me this morning that acts of service is his love language and words of affirmation are mine. But anyway, now that I have a clue as to what his language is, make a concerted effort to start speaking it. Meanwhile, no sex. I could be celibate for a really, really long time. But you know what? I think I can handle that better than H can. So it may give me a little leverage. I won't tell him no sex, in fact I'll step up the affection in other areas. But if he tries to take it into sex, I will say I'm uncomfortable with it every time. Ultimately, I am not comfortable with sex and not sleeping in the same bed or not kissing. I was complying because of physical desires and the hope that it would bring us closer. And it did bring us closer. So close in fact that H can be happy with things as they are for the rest of his life. He said so. So now, it's time to put a little distance in our R, make it so that he wants something in our R that is not there. Then we will be on equal negotiating ground. You want sex? Then I will sleep in my own bed and you will kiss me. I will be very careful to never, ever say that to him directly. But enough will have been said in the past that he'll know.
It's not ideal. But neither is walking out the door and seeing my kids only every other week. And the more I think about it, the more I realize that this will really affect him. I remember mentioning once in a conversation with H about my interactions with OM, that I had not slept with him. I remember H telling me "Thank *god*". I can't remember exactly what was said, but the context in which we were discussing it was H's refusal to kiss me. And his response led me to believe that he was very grateful that we could still have sex [in his eyes]. He has also dropped a couple of snide remarks about my mentioning that I was slightly bothered by the sex thing without sleeping in the same bed. He sort of jokingly said to me something like "Yeah, but since you decided we can't have sex anymore...". I hadn't decided any such thing and he knew it. He was just trying to steer me in a different direction. Those are two big hints for me that this will bother him. What man can go a year without sex? What woman could? Answer: A woman who wants to save her marriage!
So my friends, I'm on a mission.

[Burgbud]

So my friends, I'm on a mission.

Good for you. I gotta think that if you can start to balance the power in your R, it will help you. It doesn't have to be this, but it sounds like something important to you and you have the motivation to stick with it. Establishing a boundary with H can only work in your favor, no matter what he does with it.

He wants to parent our children and make our M as pleasant as possible although it's not a top priority. He says he is not miserable, that he can be happy like this.

Okay, I can maybe buy that. You've got a long row to hoe Heather. Good luck, seriously! Don't stop coming back here for support. I'm glad your brother is going to be nearby, I think that'll be a big relief for you.

I still wouldn't buy a new house. But that's just me.