I wish I knew why he does this too... My thoughts are that he grew up in family where both parents drank a lot. I don't know how they behaved when they were drunk we've never discussed it but I can imagine that they must have been unpredictable and said and did things that they didn't mean. I also know his dad was a serious gambler (I learned this fron H's mum) One xmas he spent all of his wages and pretended he had lost it. I imagine H is used to getting let down and just managed somehow to shut down from his feelings. I think he found it safer to say nothing, keep a low profile and feel as little as possible in order to survive. He still hasn't shaken this habit.
the parents split up when the dad met someone else....mum did too. The only problem was that they both met drinkes so the problem intensified.
I'm not sure about his self esteem. He is quite selfish and pus himself first much of the time. This indicates to me that he does like himself and feels worthy of buying himself things etc...o it could mean the opposite... He does crave popularity. He loves to be liked and to please others.
When I am angry with him he tends to retreat and wait untill the storm has passed. It could be that he feels I will give him chance after chance... When he wants to do something he will do it, regardless of how it effect others...he will then be full of remorse pleading ignorance. Little boy lost kind of thing.
He has just phoned actually to ask what is happening tonight in case we have crossed wires so I had to go over it all...I will drop the boys off and have a couple of hours in town and then he will take them swimming, I'll cook dinner for us all etc... He 'appears' to be trying very hard....
Betsey... There were lots of similarities in the lists that you all made. Distancing himself by going to the pub...working too much even moving to another city to get more work...lots of things but what really really him home was your letter to Mr.W, especially this list
QUOTE: 1. Indifference and apathy 2. Conflict avoidance 3. Emotional or physical affairs 4. Deceit—primarily portrayed in a passive-aggressive manner 5. Lack of commitment 6. Unwillingness to seek understanding and search for solutions 7. Unwillingness to learn 8. Lack of affection—both verbal and physical 9. Overindulgence in alcohol as a means of self medication 10. Referring to making love as “boinking” or “doing me”—I don’t want to be disrespected any
I would need to add to this sercetiveness. H hides everything. His cell phone is locked, computer pass word coded several times in all areas...He just hides everything. Part of me is suspicious thinking that he must have something to hide if he is so secretive but I have snooped many times and not found anything significant. I know, I know it's naughty but hey!
It is his secretiveness about all that bugs me.Or I should say it used to bug me. Now I just look at it as silly, childish and imature. The conclusion I came to when I sneaked inside his phone and mail box many monthes ago was the fact that he kept it secret was that there was nothing to see. Ok there were lots of silly jokes and stuff but nothing 'meaningful'
As far as friends go..I don't really get involved in them. I am not into sitting in pubs all evening, I may go for a drink or a meal but to sit watching football is not my cup of tea. I wouldn't ask him to stop seeing any of his friends either. I find them all kind of sad to be sitting in a pub when they could be at home doing stuff with their families. Why did you see your Mr.W. friends a s a threat Betsey? Could he have picked up these vibes and that is why he ditched them? Could he be blaming you for that?
QUOTE...........................................
But the underlying theme here might bear more mulling and consideration. If he seems to prefer hanging out with bar mates as a simple objection to your control, that's easy enough. But if he chooses to engage in Rs where there is no intimacy or depth, it might be a smokescreen for a really huge issue.
I say these things not to be an alarmist, but just to find some stuff to chew on and consider. Which is why I wanted you to do the consideration exercise....
Not sure what you mean Betsey. Why do you think that people who engage in Rs where there is no intimacy or depth, it might be a smokescreen for a really huge issue? Are you saying that they are likely to have affairs and such like? I do worry that H is emotionally imature, and this coupled with his desire to be liked does make me feel that it wouldn't take much to tempt him into an affair / fling. But then I can't stress ou about something that may never happen. If he's gonna do it he's gonna do it...all I can do is provide a R that he'd be silly to leave. If he does that thanks to DBers I am fully armed to deal with it. I have learned so much from you guys here and continue to do so.
Sorry if I am off track with hat you meant Betsey... I will do the consideration exercise over the weekend. It certainly will give me something to chew on.
I see you asked me some questions, and I'm sorry it's taken me so long to login...
Quote: I find them all kind of sad to be sitting in a pub when they could be at home doing stuff with their families.
I agree! But it's not up to us to make value judgments about others, is it?
Quote: Why did you see your Mr.W. friends a s a threat Betsey?
I'd like to make a distinction here before I answer. I have never seen Mr. Wonderful's real friends as a threat. Ever. However, after he left he got himself a new group of beer buddies. He did hang around some of his former friends, as long as they followed his rule of "Betsey-free conversations." Most of his beer buddies--particularly the single ones--do not know me.
This was a threat to me, Pink. These guys were more than happy to accommodate his rule of a Betsey neutral zone (they had nothing to add, anyway). Furthermore, they weren't holding him accountable for his crappy moods (which I understand now were the rule rather than the exception), and Mr. Wonderful is generous. That means they were reluctant to lose their drinking buddy, so they weren't going to encourage him to head into counseling or re-think his plan.
I do know that his friends were (are?) bothered by our sitch. His 2 closest friends were LBS (one has happily reconciled with his W and the other is D). And they have made numerous attempts to talk to him about things. As a result, they actually talk to me more often. The D friend of his is one of my annulment witnesses... and I'm talking one of Mr. Wonderful's most dear and cherished friend, Pink.
Quote: Could he be blaming you for that?
No, at least I hope not! I had nothing to do with his avoiding his good friends and making immature ones...
Quote: Why do you think that people who engage in Rs where there is no intimacy or depth, it might be a smokescreen for a really huge issue?
Because those types of Rs are not generally the types where soul searching and evaluation takes place. (See my comments about Mr. Wonderful above.) If one continually seeks out shallow Rs, what incentive is there for growth and accountability?
I don't know if you read my post about our charity golf tournament in September? Some of Mr. Wonderful's more recent work friends (who I'd not met until then) joined in. I met one of his bowling friends at the silent auction table. Now mind you, this guy knew that Mr. Wonderful had separated and divorced and not much else. He also knew that Mr. Wonderful wasn't really happy and had been moody all year. This guy is married with kids, and I have no idea why I'd not met him before. Pink, when he introduced himself, he asked me how I knew Mr. Wonderful? I was as stunned as I was amused. I told him I was the XW and his jaw dropped. He assumed I was his GF, just from the way he observed Mr. W. looking at me. He gave me a look that clearly meant, "What was he thinking?" D11 told me awhile ago that another one of his friends said to him (within her earshot), "Betsey's a fine lady, and I have no idea what you're thinking there."
I can promise you that when I contemplated leaving him, my friends all stopped me dead in my tracks. They told me what I didn't want to hear. And although I really didn't want to hear it, I did. Had I chosen to inform some new GFs who only knew that I was unhappily married, do you think I'd have received the same advice?
For the record, he's not blaming me at all anymore. Right now, he's absorbing the guilt and also projecting it on to his parents. We're slowly working around that issue...
Does this clarify things?
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Quote: I find them all kind of sad to be sitting in a pub when they could be at home doing stuff with their families.
I agree! But it's not up to us to make value judgments about others, is it?
I don't think it is wrong to have an opinion. I regularly hear of people who do things that I don't approve of. I aknowlege those feelings and explore the where appropriate. I am aware tha people have different life experiences to me, different values and morals; I accept that. I don't go into the pub and lecture these guys that they 'should' be at home with their families; that is something I feel internally. What they do is up to them. We all judge peopel on a daily basis by the clothes they wear, the places they hang out and who they hang out with. I could argue that you judged H friends by thinking that the imature ones were unsuitable....
Quote: I have never seen Mr. Wonderful's real friends as a threat. Ever. However, after he left he got himself a new group of beer buddies. He did hang around some of his former friends, as long as they followed his rule of "Betsey-free conversations." Most of his beer buddies--particularly the single ones--do not know me.
This was a threat to me, Pink. These guys were more than happy to accommodate his rule of a Betsey neutral zone (they had nothing to add, anyway). Furthermore, they weren't holding him accountable for his crappy moods (which I understand now were the rule rather than the exception), and Mr. Wonderful is generous. That means they were reluctant to lose their drinking buddy, so they weren't going to encourage him to head into counseling or re-think his plan.
I do know that his friends were (are?) bothered by our sitch. His 2 closest friends were LBS (one has happily reconciled with his W and the other is D). And they have made numerous attempts to talk to him about things. As a result, they actually talk to me more often. The D friend of his is one of my annulment witnesses... and I'm talking one of Mr. Wonderful's most dear and cherished friend, Pink.
So, you only approved of friends that wanted to see your R reconciled? Using the above as a guide to H friendship, I would say that H has friends that do not enhance his spiritual growth. They do not encourage him to think about his R with me....They encourage a pink free zone..and so do I. I don't want H talking about me with his buddies or to be encouraged into councelling by peer presure I want him to sort things out in his own mind by himself. I can fully understand his need to have some thought free time. I can think of nothing worse than havingmy friends encouage me to seek therapy or tell me that what I was doing to H was wrong when I needed space. I felt bad enough at that time without my friends disaproving of me too. I wanted my friends to offer me support in whatever choices I made.
Quote: Why do you think that people who engage in Rs where there is no intimacy or depth, it might be a smokescreen for a really huge issue?
Because those types of Rs are not generally the types where soul searching and evaluation takes place. (See my comments about Mr. Wonderful above.) If one continually seeks out shallow Rs, what incentive is there for growth and accountability?
Who are we to say that others need ...or are ready for spiritual growth and accountability?
Quote: I don't know if you read my post about our charity golf tournament in September? Some of Mr. Wonderful's more recent work friends (who I'd not met until then) joined in. I met one of his bowling friends at the silent auction table. Now mind you, this guy knew that Mr. Wonderful had separated and divorced and not much else. He also knew that Mr. Wonderful wasn't really happy and had been moody all year. This guy is married with kids, and I have no idea why I'd not met him before. Pink, when he introduced himself, he asked me how I knew Mr. Wonderful? I was as stunned as I was amused. I told him I was the XW and his jaw dropped. He assumed I was his GF, just from the way he observed Mr. W. looking at me. He gave me a look that clearly meant, "What was he thinking?" D11 told me awhile ago that another one of his friends said to him (within her earshot), "Betsey's a fine lady, and I have no idea what you're thinking there."
Quote: I can promise you that when I contemplated leaving him, my friends all stopped me dead in my tracks. They told me what I didn't want to hear. And although I really didn't want to hear it, I did. Had I chosen to inform some new GFs who only knew that I was unhappily married, do you think I'd have received the same advice?
No I don't. But different advice may not have been wrong. If your friends cared about you so much why would they encourage you to stay in an unhappy relationship? Maybe if YOU had left the R earlier Mr. W. would not have been forced to do so and would not be harbouring all of this guilt now.
Quote: For the record, he's not blaming me at all anymore. Right now, he's absorbing the guilt and also projecting it on to his parents. We're slowly working around that issue...
I'm glad about that. Guilt is a very distructive and debilitating emotion.
Had a good discussion about my (his) LOL pub problem. He can't understand why it is OK for him to have the boys at the pub on Friday and still come over and not any other day (good point) Afte a lengthy chat it transpired that the problem was me feeling worn out by the children and needing a break rather than being against him going out. It was good to chat over a problem and get a resolution. (My H hates chatting...) So he has come up with a rota idea so that we plan the week with who is doing what with the boys, what time off I will have etc etc. He decided it all (which was Ok with me...) I am thinking that as it was his idea and he made the rota that he wil stick to it Gotta be worth a try. So the bottom line is that he is going to be doing more with the boys.
Friday evening he took them out to the social club and then swimming whilst I went and did some shopping. He bought fish and chips home for supper.
saturday he had to go and help his mum move house so I had the boys and took them for a bike ride. We had a family evening together.
Sunday he took the boys to the zoo whilst I went out with a friend.
Today we are not seeing each other. (day off he calls it; don't know if thats good or bad LOL)
Tomorrow is family evening, games, dinner together that kind of stuff.
It's good to know where I stand everyday and hopefully will cut down on the confusion. (i HOPE)
Quote: So, you only approved of friends that wanted to see your R reconciled?
No, I didn't say this at all. You asked me a question, and that was why I considered the beer buddies threats vs. friends. I answered the question from my perspective, and I stand behind it.
Quote: Who are we to say that others need ...or are ready for spiritual growth and accountability?
Pink, I consider a true friend someone who cares about me so much that they dare to sit me down and ask me to consider something from a different perspective. If they are friends and they love me and don't want to see me hurt, they do these things. It's not up to them to get me to do things their way, but to CONSIDER all options before making any big decisions.
I almost dropped out of college after 2 years. My dad lectured me until I was blue in the face... and for a good reason. I was going to run away from some hideous personal problems and head to California with a less than desirable BF. My parents couldn't get through to me. HOWEVER... my best friends did. They knew me as well (if not better) than I knew myself. And they asked me to consider the consequences for doing something so drastic. Because of them, I finished college and made the dean's list and went on to graduate school. Pink, I have a great and well paying job because of that--and these women are still my friends. Good friends do this for others, and they risk being outcast because they dare to express their concern and opinion. I want friends, not acquaintances...
Quote: I can think of nothing worse than havingmy friends encouage me to seek therapy or tell me that what I was doing to H was wrong when I needed space. I felt bad enough at that time without my friends disaproving of me too. I wanted my friends to offer me support in whatever choices I made.
Not me. And I hope I never have friends who kow tow to me, especially when they see me making potentially serious mistakes or errs in judgment.
Quote: If your friends cared about you so much why would they encourage you to stay in an unhappy relationship?
They weren't encouraging this at all, Pink. But they knew me well enough to know that I had only considered one option, and that was mine. I couldn't and wouldn't see any other--and they knew it. Leaving only resolved one issue: getting out of the house. They knew full well that I was part of the problem and encouraged me to fix them. I even had a colleague tell me she was praying for me, as I seemed addicted to create drama to distract myself from the real problems. I was horribly insulted, but you know something? She was RIGHT. Dead on right.
I have a friend who HAS tried all available options. And I'm supporting her in her decision to leave her H. He's just not willing to do anything about the problem but blame her. She's not nearly as single minded as I am... and that's why I feel the way I do about my friends.
Single minded people tend to make the same mistakes over and over and they wonder why they seem to be destined for a life where happiness falls short of the mark. This isn't an accident, Pink... it's a direct consequence for choosing to believe that I have all the answers I need. If God meant for me to be completely independent, he'd have beamed me to an island void of other humans. Instead, he made us all inter-dependent... and if I had chosen to allow myself to blindly move out, I'd be dealing with not only leaving, but creating more problems and dealing with my own guilt. Thank goodness I listened to what my friends had to say: because of them, I looked deep inside and found instead that I needed a change of heart.
A change of heart. Go figure.
Hopefully, others will have something to say so it doesn't look like I'm ganging up on you....
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Quote: Good friends do this for others, and they risk being outcast because they dare to express their concern and opinion. I want friends, not acquaintances...
I hope I never have friends who kow tow to me, especially when they see me making potentially serious mistakes or errs in judgment.
That's great stuff.
Pink, your weekend sounds like it went very well. Great!
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
Sorry I haven't been around much...haven't really even been posting in my own thread except on occasion...but I thought I'd do a drive by today!!! And low and behold, of course I have somethings for you to chew on...
Quote: I don't think it is wrong to have an opinion. I regularly hear of people who do things that I don't approve of. I aknowlege those feelings and explore the where appropriate...I could argue that you judged H friends by thinking that the immature ones were unsuitable....
I sense here that you may have missed the point. From the way I take what she said was that she didn't think the immature ones were unsuitable, she just didn't like that they preyed on a part of him that was impressionable at the time, even if they were telling him he was making a mistake. There was no judging of their behavior and what they did, she viewed them as a real threat to her marriage. There's plenty of people who behave immaturely and we don't judge them for it or think less of them, sure we have an opinion but that opinion is more about our own choices and who we are. There's a difference between judging and having an opinion I think. Having an opinion suggests that you believe both parties are correct, but you're choice is to behave one way...not that it's more right, it's just what you're comfortable with. Judging, on the other hand, suggests there's a right and wrong way to behave and that you are unable to understand WHY someone might make a different choice than you...you don't free them to exist as they are around you because they don't fit into your acceptable choices and behaviors...their choice makes you uncomfortable. Does that make sense?
Okay, I'm gonna challenge you here on the rest of this stuff in one big swoop.
Pink, it just seems like you are having a big struggle of accepting the things you can control, and those you can't. It's okay to WANT your H to do things your way, but you need to accept that he'll find his own way...you can only be you. Also, just because it isn't done your way, doesn't mean it's wrong and if you continue to judge him for it being his way, if your R ever comes back together will you be able to accept that he learned everything he needed to learn by doing it his way? or will you always have doubts?
You say you dont' want your H talking about you with his buddies...I felt the same way at first cause I wasn't sure on their position about me. I was afraid they'd tell him what he wanted to hear rather than being a good friend and giving it to him straight. I'd rather have had it where my H talked about me with them and let him see all sides of everything, rather than just the one I was showing him and just the one he believed...cause truly there is something completely different out there if you can both grow and learn. I can think of many things worse than having my friends encourage me to do something I didn't want to do...I too wanted my friends to accept my choices, but you know what I learned through all of this...I have some true friends who are mature, understand love and life, and know how to love unconditionally...and then I have those that force their own belief systems upon me and no matter what, will never accept that my choices are as correct as theirs...they judge. I have those who judge and those who have an opinion. Those with the opinion are still by me today in my change of heart. Those who judge, can't let go of what they believe is the right choice and can't accept my choice that differs from theirs....they're great friends when I believe what they believe, but they suck when I don't.
Quote: Who are we to say that others need ...or are ready for spiritual growth and accountability?
Wouldn't you say, that no matter who you are there's always room for improvement? Everyone comes to it in their own time and some of us can see the struggle of others when trying to grow...it's a painful process most of the time. However, close friends KNOW when the opportunity presents itself for that growth...close friends that are deep in meaning are able to give us the shove we need at times. Those who aren't close friends can try all they want to give the shove, but it will never happen. Sometimes that shove is a risk for the person doing the shoving as at the wrong time could have some serious consequenses in the R.
Quote: No I don't. But different advice may not have been wrong. If your friends cared about you so much why would they encourage you to stay in an unhappy relationship? Maybe if YOU had left the R earlier Mr. W. would not have been forced to do so and would not be harbouring all of this guilt now
Good friends don't give advice, they ask the right questions...not leading questions...objective questions on important issues. They don't project their own feelings into your R. It bothers me that you suggest she should have left so Mr. W doesn't harbour guilt. For the record, you have turned that to place blame, where there should not be any. Things are what that are.
Nickel
"The walls we build around us to keep sadness out also keeps out the joy."
My thoughts are that he grew up in family where both parents drank a lot. I don't know how they behaved when they were drunk we've never discussed it but I can imagine that they must have been unpredictable and said and did things that they didn't mean. I also know his dad was a serious gambler (I learned this fron H's mum) One xmas he spent all of his wages and pretended he had lost it. I imagine H is used to getting let down and just managed somehow to shut down from his feelings. I think he found it safer to say nothing, keep a low profile and feel as little as possible in order to survive. He still hasn't shaken this habit. 
He 'appears' to be trying very hard....
I know, I know it's naughty but hey! 
Betsey 
