Hi WCW I'm here on the BB almost every day whether I'm making progress or not!
I'm still here in limbo-land with my heels dug in. I've actually been thinking about you and your sitch a little and projecting. Didnt you say that your H has mentioned a couple of times that he felt rejected? I'm dealing with HUGE rejection issues with H right now. I don't think from what you've shared that you've rejected your H in any way near the way I feel rejected. And I think I might be dealing with that rejection similar to how your H is. Just clamming up and being stubborn when my H now tries to show me affection.
For most of our M, I have been HD and H has been LD. There was a period of a year where he hardly touched me at all. I later found out he was having a PA. It wasnt a constant love affair, but was a lot of flirting and they had sex a few times over the course of a year. He's admitted that he didnt desire me during that time, and even if he did, he felt guilty so he pushed me away. After that, I was demanding with him. I needed to feel wanted and loved so I pushed the issue. He resisted and it became a sort of power struggle. I wanted to ML to prove to myself that he wanted me and he didnt because it was too much pressure. Then we just kind of settled into a routine of only ML when he wanted it, and me feeling like he didnt desire me very much and only wanted me to satisfy his physical urges.. that it didnt have much to do with ME as much as it had to do with his need.
The truth probably lies somewhere in between what he was thinking and what I was thinking. He didnt feel like he satisfied me, so he might have felt a certain amount of rejection on his part too.. and anxiety that he wasnt enough for me. See how that works.. no communication so we each live out our stories and it slowly erodes the R.
FF to this year. I finally felt desirable and loved. Then H sunk into his D. We weren't ML or affectionate enough for me, but I came to accept it because I was happy with our R otherwise and knew H loved me even if he didnt show it physically the way I would have liked him too. And, it also kept me from approaching him with my needs. He might have been happy to try harder, but I'll never know because I didnt want to face that rejection if he didnt. In the spring when he had his one night stand and fling w/OW, all the rejection of the last 18 years bubbled up in me. When he moved back home I started that cycle of wanting to prove his desire by initiating ML more. It worked for awhile.. he wanted it too. It didnt accomplish my goal because as we well know, you can't heal that hurt in a few months with lots of sex! Then he started having ED probs from his meds.. maybe.. or from guilt.. or from his depression, not sure. Maybe he doesnt feel like being close to me because I'm so angry with him? Whatever the reason, our physical R has fallen apart again. Not just the ML, but the affection. I've pretty much knocked myself out to be desirable to him with not much luck in attracting him back to me physically. The Dr. asked him two months ago if he loves me and wants to spend the rest of his life with me.. if he's sure. H said yes. His psych also asked him that question. I found it ironic, because I also question that because his actions don't support that he does. Anyway, the advice he was given was to start reaching out to me and being close. To try to meet my needs for affection in other ways or I'd withdraw myself. He didnt take that advice. We still werent touching, and at this point, I stopped trying too.
We come to the last week where once again I asked H to sleep upstairs. Being close to him, but not being close to him is hard for me. I hate lying in the bed next to sH and not touching him, not being held. When I'd close my eyes at night I had the sensation that we were miles apart.. weird. I didnt try to initiate anything with him on a daily basis during those two months or build back that closeness, so I don't know if he would've responded to that. I was waiting on him to follow Dr's orders and make his actions meet his words.
After I asked him to move upstairs he decided he needed to change because I have withdrawn. Not just physically, but emotionally too. I don't talk to him about personal things very much and the distance between us sounds a little like the distance between you and your H. Now my H is starting to reach out to me timidly. I've thought.. maybe like you do? A request for a hug here and there. Coming into the room and sitting next to me. He'll reach out and touch my shoulder and I know he's waiting to see how I respond. The last few nights he's been sleeping with me because our S19 is home in the bedroom upstairs. The first night we just went to sleep. The second night he asked me for a hug and I said sure. He hugged me close for awhile and I felt uncomfortable, but I liked it. I could just feel that wall go up. I was thinking.. why is he doing this now? I've need this for so long and have been hurting. I asked him to do this two months ago and he ignored me.. he didnt care. Now he feels like he's losing me and he wants to try when I've been pushed so far away I don't know if I'll ever get back. So, I resented that he wants to try now. He kissed me on the shoulder, told me I felt good, told me he misses holding me, and still I didnt say a word. I wonder on his side how that was? What he thought I was thinking.. if he felt rejected like you feel by your H. He asked if we could do more and I said no. When he asked that, I completely shut down and moved away from him. I'll be honest here. I wanted to do more.
I've been thinking about why I've been stubborn and won't respond to H when he reaches out to me. Stubborness and pride is one. If I give in, will he go back to rejecting me and not trying again? Punishment is another (yes, I know that's not a pretty thing). I'm angry and I know it hurts him when I push him away too. When I'm angry, it doesnt bother me that I've hurt him like that.. afterall, he's been doing that to me. I feel terribly guilty about that because it's just wrong to treat him that way. But here again, pride. I don't want him to "win". When we first reconciled he used to say "hey, we're on the same team here" It made me realize that to make it work we have to be on the same team, always FOR each other. I'm not for him right now.. I'm all for me and protecting myself at the moment. Another reason I'm withdrawing is because I honestly don't know where I stand with him. The feelings of love and tenderness.. caring and compassion are buried under this load of rejection, anger and resentment I havent worked through. Because he's not been trying to help build me up and I've been desperately needing his reassurances and not getting them, I've held onto that anger, etc as a form of protection to keep me from being vulnerable with him. When I was intimate and vulnerable with him over the summer, I feel like he threw it in my face by rejecting that part of me again. So not knowing if I want to continue the R with him, it doesnt make sense for me to respond to his efforts to be close right now. Fear... fear of getting back in and ending up here again. Fear of him rejecting me again. Fear of him not trying once he has my affections again. Fear that he really doesnt want to be close to me, but is using that to keep me in the R so he doesnt have to face being alone.
I don't know what your H is feeling, or even if that rejection is a big prob between you. I guess I'm just saying that maybe in there somewhere is a person who really wants to be close to you and wants you to keep plugging away until he does feel desired enough to open up again. You havent done the things my H has done to destroy the trust as much... so maybe just reaching out consistently and often would be a good thing to do for you. Verbally expressing that you want to be close to him and miss him. I dont know, it's just an idea and as I said I'm projecting here. Although my H doesnt know it, it does register when he reaches out. It might be too late for him to reach my love bank in that way, but maybe it's not too late for you. It would take not scurrying away when you feel rejected though, and I know that's HARD to do. Just the fact that your H isnt moving out, and is saying nothing.. like he isnt saying he doesnt want you, etc, may mean his silence is just a stubborn wall that needs to be broken down by turning that rejection into acceptance again.
I wish there was a way to find out if your H is doing the same things I've done. It would be alot less risky to know that it's just a matter of time and reaching out to overcome those feelings of rejection, wouldnt it?
Interesting day. I've been super stressed this week and feeling the pressure of not knowing where me and H are going. Being pretty sure that it's over but doubting myself. Today I hit my limit emotionally. Things are nuts at work. The other two analysts are out and we've had a ton of stuff hit the fan. By lunch I had a killer headache and was just tired. Filled to the top with it all.
Then H called about noon. It's funny when I feel like I can't take one more piece of bad news.. it comes and then I just have to set it all down and leave it there. That's what happened. Now I'm very relaxed and feeling good. I can't make any of this better, so it's better left alone!
H called and said "Is it OK with you if I quit my job?" I said, "what do you mean?" He said "If I quit my job today, will you let me stay at the house. Would that come between us?" He said he's sure he has a job offer coming Thurs from the guy he's been waiting on to contact him. He called yesterday and offered H the job, but won't discuss the details until they meet. He also went to an interview yesterday and is expecting a call in two weeks, and he has a second interview with a place tomorrow. Any of the three would be good jobs for him. I responded "as long as you continue to pay your half to the bills as we agreed it doesnt matter to me where you're working. I can't afford to support us without your income, but other than that, we'll continue as we have been" He did some verbal math trying to convince me it would be OK, I asked him what happened.
He was livid with one of the management at work. They have to pay quarterly parking fees for employee parking. On Mon, they asked him for last quarter fees and he said he'd already paid them. They said, no you didnt and he said well, I'll have to check and see if I have a check number and let you know. I looked and saw that he didnt pay last quarters and paid the quarter before late, so he thought he did because it had been such a short time between paying. The next day he paid the fees and got a receipt. Today, R called him into her office and said he was being reprimanded for making a false statement. This is a woman that H has went up against over his schedule in the last month. He took the issue to her boss and some of the discussion during the meeting made her look bad because she lied about giving him timely notice about schedule changes. So today, H felt like she was just gunning for him. There were two other managers in the room. H asked her to let him take some leave in the next week and she turned it down, so he wasnt happy to begin with. After he got off the phone with me, he went back into the room and said he'd like to speak with the HR lady in their main office (R's boss) because he felt it was three against one in the room and he has right to be represented in the meeting too. She got angry and told him to sit down and answer their questions. He said "why don't you just approve my leave and we can work this out when S gets back to work next week" She asked "are you threatening me?" He said "no, I'm not threatening you, but I dont see how I made a false statement and I'm not signing a reprimand" She came around and asked for his work badge and told him to leave for the day. Later he talked to her to get the phone number of the HR lady in the front office so he can be advised of his rights. She told him to call tomm and they'll let him know what they decided to do or if he can come back to work or not. He found out that she went downstairs and bad mouthed him to some of the other employees, so he's upset about that tonight and the way it was handled. He said he was mad, but after I asked him to deal with them calmly he went back into the room and wasnt ugly about it really, but they could tell he wasnt happy.
So that's that I guess. Don't know if H will be working or getting paid if he isnt. He's counting on getting a job offer, so we'll see. I feel very calm about this and I don't know why. Maybe it's because I put it out there that it isnt my decision or my problem, it's his responsibility to work it out and make sure he's still doing his part to support the kids. Me, D11, and S19 went and did a little shopping tonight. H is watching Larry the cable guy and laughing. He had dinner cooked when I got home and has been a little stressed, but nothing major.
Normal evening here? Or maybe I just keep redefining my definition of normal to cope!
Oh Sheila...you must feel at your limit right now! I'm sorry, I don't have any advice. This isn't yours to fix though, so therefore it isn't yours to worry about either!
Yes, I've hit my limit, but you're right, I can't do anything about it at all. I'm still not feeling very stressed about H's work situation this morning, and that's good! He thanked me last night for being sweet and supportive of him yesterday. I guess I have changed through all of this? Sometimes it's hard to see any progress in myself when I'm feeling so negative. When he thanked me I realized that I've dropped the rope alot with him over the last months. I didnt have any suggestions for how to fix his work probs and I didnt tell him how I wouldve handled it. I asked him some questions about the situation and told him I know he must be frustrated and worried right now. I'm letting him handle it without the extra stress of worrying about me.
I used to feel a sense of panic when H was getting out of control, but I'm not feeling that. So maybe through all of the negatives over the last months, some positives have happened. I'm taking H's power away to control my life by what he does so much. By dropping the rope with him, it looks like I'm focusing more on getting my duckies in a row and he can squeak them a little, but they're still marching along! And he seems more relaxed about being in control of his life too. Like yesterday, he called and asked my opinion, but he expressed what he wanted to do to me too. Thats a new thing for him to explain and share what he's thinking. I think if I had said "absolutely not!" about him quitting his job it would have made him feel powerless. In the past (and it's happened with his job many time.. too much really) he wouldve just done what he wanted to do. Hid it, lied about it and then told me when it was inevitable that I'd find out. Once when he quit a job he got up and dressed for work, left the house as usual for a week before he told me. And when he lost his job a year and a half ago, he didnt tell me for a week and we went on vacation with that hanging over his shoulders. There's definately progress with him sharing important things with me.
I've also realized that he isnt lying anymore. I havent snooped or checked up on him, but as far as I know, he's been up front and honest about what he's doing. This change started when we split our finances. Besides the tax misunderstanding, things seem to be going well for him financially. He's said he isnt managing his money well, but he's trying to get better at it. And, rather than having him ask for help when he's running short I've been trying to help without him knowing I'm helping. Things like filling the van up with gas if I drive it because it's so expensive for him to drive to work. Or I'll give him some money and tell him it's to cover anything extra he's had to spend on the household expenses.
It's hard to see positives right now, but I'm trying to see them. H poured his heart out to me again last night. It still left me confused and afraid of getting back into our R. When I told him that, he said I don't have to get back into it and he doesnt expect me too. He wants me to live my life and be happy and do whatever that means for me. He went on for quite awhile about how he feels about me. I told him that we've been here before and this is where it took us and I'd be insane to go down that road with him again. That I can't have my life fall apart every few years, and it seems like every time we have a major life event that we need to support each other through, he checks out. The birth of our children.. every one except S2 was followed by a separation. S19 going off to college, H changing jobs..just any changes like that and he comes unwound. He said again that he knows how he feels about me and is working to change so he can take care of me and we can be there for each other through anything. I mentioned how things were after we reconciled and he said "we didnt fix things the right way. I carried too much stuff forward that we agreed would be left in the past. We said we had a clean slate, but that didnt fix the problems" This is something I've said to him many times in the past. So, it sounds like he's thinking more clearly about working on things. He acts so much more focused when he's taking his meds regularly. Thinking about it.. I realize that I didnt point out what needs to change.. what he'd have to change, what we'd need to do.. I didnt launch into fix it mode and he was the one saying what he thinks we need to do.
He asked me again about counseling. He said he'd like me to go even if I won't go with him and he'll even set it up for me. He said even if we aren't together he'd like to have counseling together at some point to work through our differences. That he can see my pain and anger and is afraid I'll carry it with me. It's eerily similar to what I told him last may before he started getting treated for his depression. It might be a big part of the reason he's getting his act together. Maybe he sees me withdrawing emotionally for him and remembers how he felt. I don't know if I should say anything to reassure him that I'm not withdrawing from life into depression, I've just withdrawn from him. I don't know what he's seeing from his point of view, but maybe it's scary to see a person who's always shared everything not want to share much of anything at all now. He said he doesnt know what I'm thinking or feeling anymore.. and I thought that was interesting because that's how I've felt about him for a long time.
Anyway, sorry for the ramble. I just wanted to make note of the positives because it does help to see that he's changing and that will make things better even if I can't find my way back to trying again.
Sometimes a relationship is a dance, huh? One pulls close, the other moves away. One goes down, the other goes up. When the relationship is where it should be, the distances are small and the changes subtle, perhaps unnoticeable. When the relationship has been wracked and ravaged. you both are hypersensitive and the distances grow, the changes slamming into your heart violently instead.
It is what I think of as I read your last few posts. Your H rejected the physical side with you and now you are doing it with him. So in a way, you know in your heart what he was feeling when he did it to you.
I see baby steps. H sharing the work thing with you up front for example. And you, hyper conscious of how you behave with such things, actually did something different.
Here' what I like to hope, that this dance is like ripples in a pond. They start large and obvious but they slowly die away. Eventually, they become hard to see and finally they ar no longer there, at least so you can see. I like to hope that happens with you two. The pulling away and coming close, the ups and own, are dampened over time to something imperceptible and finally non-existent. It's a natural thing in the physical world, the force of things are generally non sustainable over time - the winds of the tornado dissipate, the heat of a fire dies down - hopefully it is a natural thing in an R too.
Oh my. I keep rereading your post about rejection....and the rest. It brings so many memories and thoughts of how similiar or exactly the same I and H feel that you do. A lot of unpleasant memories, but good ones too. My H does say that he felt rejected, which led him to feel not good enough. And of course, I felt the same way. This is pretty embarassing, but he's told me the number of sexual he's had before me, astounding! That was before we were ever sexually involved, so I already had a feeling of not measuring up before we ever got started. I also know he felt rejected by his XW physically, and I thought - wow, I'll never do that. Besides, he is good, and I so enjoyed our sexual relationship. But, I always wondered if he compared me to the rest, if I measured up. Our frequency and quality was good for many years. Then we got so busy and worked hard, and got so tired, we just fell into bed. It was almost like we had to plan a time for sex. And yes, there were the nights that H wanted to start something and I rolled away from him, but it happened the other way too. I would initiate and he slept. When he's mad and upset he just knows our sex life was always bad. When he's rational he knows the reasons, and he admits that he rejected me too. But the problem remains, how do I get thru this time without his help? He's gotten pretty smart to incidental contact, shys away. And he'll flat out say no to a backrub or massage. He WANTS to keep his walls up. I'm getting frustrated just writing about it. I feel so helpless to work thru all this baggage. I don't understand why he wont' talk to me, why he seems to hate me so much when we are alone. I gotta quit for now, I'm starting to cry and don't want him to see me crying. But thanks for your most detailed thoughts for me. I really appreciate your time and honesty.
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
Oh WCW, I didnt mean to bring out the tears in you! A big huggg to you. I know those memories are hard to work through and it's frustrating to not know what's next.
And he'll flat out say no to a backrub or massage. He WANTS to keep his walls up. In all that long rambling post.. this is one of the things I wanted to communicate to you. I WANT my walls up to, but that doesnt mean they can't be broken down, or that a dent isnt made when H trys consistently. See, when he first reaches out, I wonder why is he doing this? Then he reaches out again, and I wonder, why is he doing this.. what is HE going to get out of it. I chew on that for awhile. Then he stops and I say, well see, that passed, it wasnt real to begin with. I KNOW how screwed up thinking like that is. But thinking like that keeps the wall up and I NEED that wall right now. I need that wall because I don't know if I take it down if H will continue to want to be close to me, or if he'll say whhhewww.. mission accomplished, things can go back to normal (which is what usually happens!). And here I'd be vulnerable wanting to continue to be close but he's retreated again and the cycle of feeling rejected starts all over. It's a very fragile thing.
That's also why I said it would be good to know if he's feeling this way at all. Don't know how you'd find that out unless he'd be willing to share if you asked. If he isnt, then you'd be right.. he shies away because he doesnt want the contact. But if he is, he might be shying away to test if it'll keep coming and you'll keep reaching out consistently until he can trust your intentions and you're not going to give him a lollipop and take it away tomorrow. It's all so very childish isnt it? But after years of miscommunication and hurt feelings, neglect this is the point a R gets to because neither is willing to go out on that limb. I've stood on it so long by myself, it's VERY hard for me to reach out to H right now and even harder to believe that he's willing to reach for me long enough to show me I can always depend on him being there reaching when we stray too far away from each other.
I hope you're feeling better... you sound weary. Maybe it's time for a little WCW break to have some fun and relaxation!
I'm here on the BB almost every day whether I'm making progress or not!