I'm going to jump in here for a minute, if you don't mind. Something Al said really jumped out at me.
Quote: That Sheila is much to a wonderful a person to want him, that she has seen that once before and it's only a matter of time until she sees it again. That self fulfilling prophecy is so painful to watch for me. I was there. It ends with the exactly what you don't want.
I realized something about myself going through this. The first time H had EA, it took me totally by surprise and rocked me to the core of what I believed...that he loved me and we would be together forever. When we reconciled the first time, I needed to hear/see things from him to be able to be secure in his love again. Somehow, I never quite got to that point to the same extent, and with the same trust I had before. He says he tried, that he showed me a million times how happy he was to be back together - and sometimes I could see it. Others, I longed for him to say/do/act a certain way, and when he didn't it was like there was this voice saying "see, he REALLY doesn't love you...if he did he would (fill in the blank)".
So for us, it did become a self-fulfilling prophecy. As the honeymoon time faded away and we settled again into just normal life, I didn't realize it, but I was still protecting myself in case he left again. I was keeping a few bricks in the wall, because I never wanted to be unprepared and overwhelmed by that hurt the way I was the first time.
So most likely, I was holding back from H. I didn't realize it, I would have denied it - in my mind, I was totally in my marriage, totally committed. But H says now he felt me holding back or pulling away - that he felt he never quite reached me again after our first EA. His fault or mine? Who knows? Sure there is more he could have done, but he didn't realize it needed done. And by holding a piece of my heart back, I was destroying exactly what I thought I was trying to save.
So the time came when he had convinced himself I had never forgiven him. That wasn't true, but we hadn't healed completely either. So when a cute young twinkie came alone (who as it turns out is very much like me 12 years ago, just without the bad history and with low morals) he was vulnerable. So he took it a step further and convinced himself our marriage was bad, that it was beyond repair.
As Al said, it's difficult to watch, and difficult for me to acknowledge some of it now. But maybe your H is feeling some of what I was feeling. I never would have been able to admit this a year ago, or two years ago, but I know my H was feeling it. I don't even know how much this will help, but I know when Al put it out there, I went "oh, yeah, I did that!"
Anyway to get to my question; my husband did not move out (kids and finances probably prevented that), we still share the same bedroom (as roommates), he started wearing his wedding ring again a couple of weeks ago and as long as I don't bring up our relationship we get along fantastic. But...I cannot live without intimacy or affection. The only thing I get from him is a hug on his way to work. If he went from ILYBINILWY to wearing his wedding ring in a couple of weeks, you're getting along well and getting hugs, I'd say keep doing what you're doing for a bit longer, set some goals and see what happens.
But...I cannot live without intimacy or affection. This sounds like me! Can you look at it this way for the next month? You CAN live without intimacy or affection, because you HAVE been and until he's willing to do those things again, the choices are limited. So, it sucks, I know! It hurts! But, if he's making baby steps more might be gained by seeing what happens in the next month than by pushing the issue. I've learned the hard way!
If you can afford the phone consult, I say "why not"? Every post I've read from someone that's done that has been positive and helpful.
Hope this helps in some way, but I'm no expert so surf the BB and see what's worked for others too. When in doubt, do nothing Hang in there!
Hi VJ, and Al Boy, here's a lump of stuff to swallow in the last few posts! It's gonna take some re-reading and thinking before I can sort through my emotional junk and reply. I just want both of you to know that I really appreciate your input and your friendship.
I'll be back when I have something to say other than "WAAAAAAHHH!" I dont wanna be a grown up and deal with this stuff!
Sheila, Thank you so much for taking the time to give me some advice. I really appreciate it. Big Al, If you wouldn't mind I would love to hear a man's perspective. In the words of Tom Petty, "the waiting is the hardest part..." Mamabear (Sheila)
Bless your heart if you were married to me..haha Are you picking up on my stubborness or what?
He holds off on them because he is afraid, frankly. He is afraid of losing you most of all. You're right. He's said this many times! H and I look at this differently. If communication doesnt include the negatives, it's not communication! To me anyway.. it's a fairy tale if a couple can't work through the good and the bad. I know part of it is because of our history and his fear of losing me. My fault that he feels he could lose me so easily. But if he took inventory of the negatives I've stayed through, he'd see that it isnt the negatives that will make him lose me.. it's the lack of communication and whether or not we can compromise and negotiate through the problems. It's him NOT telling me point blank the truth and us dealing with it that makes this seem hopeless. It's him not following through on things I think we've agreed on, but later found out that he just told me what I wanted to hear at the time. And that means we didnt solve anything to begin with!
Somewhere inside of him is sure that he doesn't deserve this. That Sheila is much to a wonderful a person to want him, that she has seen that once before and it's only a matter of time until she sees it again. That self fulfilling prophecy is so painful to watch for me. I was there. It ends with the exactly what you don't want. Do you know my H? Seriously. He's said this too.. that he doesnt deserve me. He say it in a way like he thinks I'd like to hear that from him. Maybe he's just admitting he's made mistakes, but making mistakes doesnt mean he doesnt deserve me. I can see what you're saying though. If he doesnt think he deserves me and thinks I believe that or will come to believe that it'll be reflected in our R.
Maybe you could try something like "on Tuesdays you are going to tell me something that you absolutely hate about me or our marriage WITHOUT ramifications or at least the most horrible ones. Parlor tricks...LOL Well, I've tried them! I've played the I'll tell you something negative and you tell me something negative and then we can both admit that there are parts of us that arent great, but it's OK. No way no how! He'll do it, but what he shares is always safe and very measured. If he could just see how VALUABLE sharing is. For instance "I dream of being single sometimes". Well, yeah, so do I! What do you think you'd like about being single? I know there is stuff to be explored and we could understand each other so much better. I mean, I share (or I did) this kind of stuff with him. Maybe me sharing it with him was too hard and he doesnt want to cause me the pain he felt? I told him exactly how thinking about him with OW makes me feel when we ML. It's info he should have if he's ML to me. Maybe he didnt want that info, and thinks I should protect him from that and he should protect me from that?
If it isn't said, it's not real. That's how I think H thinks.
Somehow he sucked you back into a marriage that you left because it was so bad, and NOW you are not happy. He is to blame, so he thinks. Sheila's life has been ruined twice because I am not good enough to get her what she needs. I can't let her go voluntarily, but I could push her away. This might be closer to the truth than even I'd like to admit. I'd have to agree he might not think about pushing me away consciously. But, when he moved out last spring, he did say that he didnt want to move back in because he didnt know if he'd be able to stop hurting me or not and he was tired of doing that. Now, this comes from someone in a PA/EA. So.. he dropped that when his R ended with OW and then he came back home. So maybe that was true, or maybe it was true and he only admitted it because he thought he might have a fresh start, no history with her. He's smart.. it would be much easier without our history. No doubt both of us could do better if we were free to be accepted for who we are at this moment in time, and not be seen as an accumulation of past and present good times and bad.
Thanks Al! Like I said, I don't know if I have anything to give, or if it would work so I'm doing nothing. H has given me some things to think about and he is changing. I just don't know if he's changing and we'll be better together or if he's changing and he'll be better for the next woman that comes into his life.
OK, I've thought and rested my brain. I understand so much of what you posted myself. I don't know how H would say as far as how much of himself he's held back from the R. He stuffs his feelings so much, I've always felt he's had one foot in and one foot out in that way. As far as committment, I dont know? He's always seemed committed to our R as far as not leaving it until last spring. Intimacy is a hard thing for him to begin with.
I can say though from his first PA that I held back a lot and didnt become fully invested in us. When we reconciled after the divorce, I jumped back in with both feet and surprisingly, didnt feel that holding back or pulling away. I used to say we were totally fixed.. and I was amazed by that. I felt closer to him than I ever had and more secure in our future. Maybe we've been going back and forth with that for years and neither of us have been totally "in" at the same time.
felt he never quite reached me again after our first EA. His fault or mine? Who knows? Sure there is more he could have done, but he didn't realize it needed done. And by holding a piece of my heart back, I was destroying exactly what I thought I was trying to save. He felt the effects of having broken that sacred bond. I understand this. When H had his first PA, I felt so much like the bond was broken between us and we'd never recover. We didnt.. for 7 or 8 years, we didnt have that bond again and I always felt like OW was between us. When we reconciled though, we had it on my part. If he felt I broke that bond by moving on after we D, then we were going to end up here again no matter what we did because that has to be dealt with and healed.
I feel like that bond has been broken again this time. I've talked to my mother at length about this and she doesnt think I'll ever have that with H again. She said she doesn't think I can ever be comfortable with him like that because one time during the first few years of marriage is one thing, but here again when it looked like we'd put that behind us might just be the last straw. I've went back and forth. I'm afraid I'd like to have that with him again, but wouldnt be able to no matter how much either of us tried.
It helps Maybe I'll ask him how he's felt about this someday if we ever communicate on that level again. Thanks VJ!
H has done and said some things in the last two days that make me think he reads this thread. I don't think he has from home. He did once a long time ago and I don't mind if he does. I havent hidden the website. I just dont know when he wouldve because he gets almost no computer time at work unless he's in the training room a couple hours a week. We've discussed the need for counseling and he brought that up last night without me mentioning it.
Things have been OK. He's been very pleasant and giving me space. The last few days though he's been reaching out more. Just a little, maybe testing the waters. Very little WOA or physical contact, until last night and today he made an effort. I don't know what to do or how to respond.
Big problem for me turned into a small conflict with H yesterday. He handled it as if he's DBing. I called him yesterday afternoon when he left work. I havent called him in over a week I think and he asked if I called just to chat. I said yeah, and he said "that's sweet!" Positive reinforcement at it's best. I don't mean that sarcastically. We talked about the kids for a minute and he said he was on his way to the bank. So he was handling the finances the way we agreed, which is a positive. I asked him if he was also depositing his half of our property taxes that I paid. We had agreed that I'd carry the biggest part of the Christmas expenses, but that we'd split the taxes. It's not that big of an amount. Since we've agreed, I've asked him if this is going to be a problem, and if it was, to let me know so I dont have any financial surprises. I asked on Sat and he said it wasnt a problem. Yesterday when I asked, he said he wasnt going to be able to deposit his half. I was ticked. Not because of the money, but because he waited until yesterday to say that he wasnt going to do it and after sending the payment, it was a surprise. I asked him to let me know in advance so I could plan to cover the whole amount (I did anyway). I just resent that he assumes he can wait and tell me last minute like that! It's again, a matter of respect. We talked about it for awhile. He was very apologetic and told me he has a "plan" for giving me his half. I didnt tell him it's not about the money, but about the way he handled it. I didnt see a point to that. I did take note that at least it was on his radar and he hadnt planned to not pay his half at all like he might have in the past. But once again, we agreed to something, the circumstances changed on his end and he didnt feel a need to let me know that until it was unavoidable. After discussing that he started saying he wants to work this out and he's doing XYZ so much better than he was before. He realizes that I've had the biggest part of the burden and that has to change and he needs to be as responsible for our family as I am, etc. He said he's trying, he loves me and he knows he's not going about it how I would, or as fast as I'd like but he does see what I'm saying and will get there if I'm patient. He also said if we need to live separately and that's what I want he'll support that.. whatever it is I decide he'll do.
When I got home he had dinner ready. It was nice. I had laid stuff out to make S19's favorite dinner, but H didnt know that, so I didnt mention it either. I thanked him and made sure the kids told him they appreciated it too.
H sat by me at one point and said "if I get us another MC, would you go with me?" It blindsided me. I didnt know what to say and I teared up. He said, you dont have to answer, you don't have to say you will, I'm just telling you that I'll get one and we can go again. I want to work this out.
Later after the boys were in bed, I was relaxing, helping D11 on a project for church where she makes a game for the group to play and learn facts about how we know the bible is true. Talking to S19 about a project of his. He has a new digital camera on the way and bought some little army men. He wants to make an animated, frame by frame movie using them. Wish I knew the technical term! We've always been each other's creative encouragement and it's one of the things we most enjoy.. bouncing ideas off of each other. He was showing me the men and we were talking about what their character might be like and what the plot of the movie could be etc. Anyway, I was engrossed in the kids..hehe. H was on his way to bed and he came over and said goodnight. He leaned over and kissed me on the head and said "I'm sorry I brought that up earlier. It wasnt fair. Just enjoy the kids right now, but I meant what I said. I love you and I want to save our M. If you don't want to, or can't I understand. I don't want to hurt you anymore. I know I havent given you what you need or tried hard enough and it might be too late. I just want you to know that I do care and am still trying"
It made me cry a little again and I still didnt know what to say. I dont even know how I'd take down the walls I've built and feel comfortable with it. A part of me wants to get in there again, but another part doesnt want to give up the progress I've made with myself in accepting that our M is over. I also am afraid that I'd just be getting his hopes up if I say I'll try again and then decide later that it was the wrong decision.
I'm stumped and confused. H says and yeah, saying isnt doing that he'll do what I want and then I don't jump on the opportunity. I did say before that I'd have to see him working individually through his issues before I'd be willing to go to MC again. I can see that he's working through some of them on his own without C. I don't know. If he was serious, wouldnt he pick up the material from MC and start studying it and working through that? Wouldnt I be seeing him get information, advice, from somewhere? A R book, his bible studies? Not sure.
Today has been about the same. He hasnt mentioned counseling again. I came home from work and had decided not to go to church. There's some conflict going on with our youth minister that I didnt want to deal with and H was going to talk to our pastor. Very heated subject at church and rather than have to comment on it, I stayed home. That's a 180 for me! He didnt mind that I wasnt going. The boys were wild and he didnt seem stressed much about it. As they left he stayed in the house and asked me for a hug. The first in over a week. He hugged me and kissed me on the shoulder and left. He called a minute ago to tell me how things worked out at church (glad I didnt go!), and seemed to be in a good mood.
I just wish I knew if his mood changes are from trying or from his medication. Yeah, it does matter to me. Maybe it's a combination of both? I can't seem to understand how much of what he does/doesnt do is a result of his depression and might get better if he keeps up treatment, or how much is just who he is or a result of our R. If that makes sense!
Hey Sheila, I didn't know about the first PA and have some more thinking to do, but here's something that jumped out at me...
You don't have to make an instant decision to take down walls or jump into saving the M again. In fact, it seems much wiser not to. I would like to think that the walls will crumble slowly. Your actions will change almost imperceptably and one day you will realize things have gotten much better.
Give him the space and time he is giving you. The space and time to do the things he says he will and to try like he says he wants to. You don't have to decide yet. You sure as heck can give yourself a break from worrying about it though.
I think your H really sounds sincere, and although he has sounded that way before, let him show sincerity too. Tell him you appreciate his efforts so far, because you do. A little positive reinforcement on those would be nice.
"Thanks for the hug, H. Thanks for the nice thank you for the phone call. I appreciate those. I can't want to see what you are going to do tomorrow, maybe even something better? You know what things I want." If he asks what, mention the money in terms of "Please let me know as soon as you can. You know it's not the money, it's the timing." or whatever springs to your mind and then, drop it. Don't let him take it any farther. Seems to me you worked some wonders the other night by refusing to tell him why you were crying. Seems to me, he thought about it and figured it out himself and tried to do something about it.
You don't have to make an instant decision to take down walls or jump into saving the M again. In fact, it seems much wiser not to. I would like to think that the walls will crumble slowly. Your actions will change almost imperceptably and one day you will realize things have gotten much better. Now why didnt I realize this? Pretty smart! Maybe it's because I'm such a pushover it takes effort to keep the wall up at all. I've allowed myself to remain so close to H emotionally through all the crap that I have to work on the boundaries and making my responses appropriate for what's being given. I usually will sell the farm for a penny!
Give him the space and time he is giving you. The space and time to do the things he says he will and to try like he says he wants to. You don't have to decide yet. You sure as heck can give yourself a break from worrying about it though. Thanks for pointing this out too. I really don't have a choice but to give it time and space. Maybe I'll be able to observe the two steps forward one step back and get used to him trying and succeeding and trying and failing sometimes, but overall be able to accept that it's hard to change and doesnt happen overnight. Maybe I'll understand him if I sit back and start trying to instead of assuming I've got him all figured out. Whether we're together or not, it won't hurt that's for sure!
let him show sincerity too. hmmm.. again, I've never looked at it this way. I'm going to have to think about this. I wonder how much H struggles because of my assumptions. I wonder how much protection I'm giving myself by those assumptions too. IAW, if I don't look at it with a beginner's mind, I won't see something that scares the h*ll out of me.. like him changing and me having to readjust what I know and can deal with.
Seems to me you worked some wonders the other night by refusing to tell him why you were crying. Seems to me, he thought about it and figured it out himself and tried to do something about it. He responds well to space doesnt he? The more he has to work at it the more he does. I guess I'd stop working if someone sent the check without me doing anything too I've observed this over and over.. the less I do, the more he does.
Thanks Al. I certainly have some food for thought and a direction for the moment!
Hang in there!