Shelia, I waited with baited breath to hear your response, LOL. Is that why I had a sleepless night last night? I was anxious to see what Al (my H) had to say this morning? hehe
I am beginning to think I want to work out my marriage, dead and gone though it is, through you. Give it a shot. It can’t hurt either of us at this point, and if nothing else, we might gain some insight.
The best I did was hold off on the pleading and begging. H gets good at this. Just letting it go and believing things will work with *time*, and anything else would be inviting a confrontation that would only do more harm, right?
Let me explain. I loved my wife and she DID come to me and lay out to me what she thought the problem was and what I wasn't doing. Thing is, it was not black and white for me nor did I understand what to do (and maybe I still don't). I promised my ass off too though. I did certain things right away and then let them slide too. Things were not spelled out as much as yours. …. and when I had a concrete suggestions I ran it into the ground till it was no longer fruitful thing, more of a going through the motions "act".
I think the problem comes when the actions are without understanding why it’s being done. They become a demand that can be explained away as unreasonable because the “doer” doesn’t necessarily understand the value of doing it to begin with (hey, I’m happy and can just “deal”. What’s her problem?! OK, I’ll try if it’s what SHE wants!). This is where H being a part of the process and doing the work is so important. He has to discover, agree and commit to his part of the “fixing” or it just becomes a service FOR ME to be happy, not something that we need to have a good R. If it was balanced with his input into what I need to do to improve our R too, it might leave him feeling less like he’s the one that has the burden on his shoulders. It’s a lot of pressure to be the only one who’s asked to change, and it might make changing easier for both of us if we were in MC and making changes together that complement and support our individual efforts.
Maybe I can see myself there and try to help. I would say his check writing/lying thing almost sounds like a mental illness - in the sense of a problem like alcoholism or gambling addiction. It is something that needs the same kind of approach anyway.
I agree. With or without me, he’ll have to deal with this or it could destroy his life. This is a good reason for him to pursue seeing his psych. The theory being that his depression is at least partially caused by behavior that keeps him in a cycle of making mistakes, lying, etc and he has self esteem and insecurity issues because he can’t get this under control.
Saying "just quit doing it" is not the right one.
Yup, again I agree. When we reconciled after the D (and this was the major reason for our divorce, the lying and check writing, and failure to get that under control), I accepted that this was a flaw in H, and decided all things considered, I could live with this. He started doing this because he had his own checking account and couldn’t resist over spending on it. So, he cancelled that account and I took control of the finances accepting that this would be something he might never get “good” at. Then we were in the sitch where I had all the financial control (he resented that) and responsibility (I resented that). But still it worked better than it had ever worked. H chose not to share his feelings with me, or try to become more financially responsible. I became the controlling “mom”. And, being who I am, it’s not wise that someone allow me to control their purse strings exclusively. Mine and H’s views on spending are different. To get what he wanted, he resorted to manipulation instead of confrontation and because I felt guilty for having control, I allowed myself to be manipulated and really - he was controlling the $$ sitch passively. I had the bank account, but wouldnt say “no” to him. Instead of doing that, I started being very stingy with myself in terms of spending. I’d go without spending on my needs in order to indulge his wants. I knew it wasn’t a perfect solution. It was the only one that I could do anything with because getting help with his money probs was not something he wanted to do and I didn’t know what a balanced solution that would work looked like.
(not that I am accusing of anyhting, you know that. If I had a wife that cared and tried as hard as you, I would cut off my arm if it would help. No BLAME for Shelia
Oh sweet Al, I don’t take what you say as accusing any more than me replying is defending my belief that this is nearly unsalvageable. There is PLENTY of blame for me. I’ve said it and I meant it; I can be a hateful b*tch. I’ve done much that’s wrong in our M. I’ve cheated the same as H has. I think my cheating was worse because I was emotionally involved and he knew that. I’ve been controlling, demanding, spiteful, unforgiving, you name the mistake, I’ve made it. We D because of H’s lying and check writing. I moved on and dated. It became clear to me though, that I loved him and wanted to work things out. He’d always made that clear to me that he still loved me. Living apart, we got along pretty well. When I started dating and got serious with someone, it broke his heart. Even then he didn’t hate me (sometimes I’m not sure whether his feelings are love or need). When I realized I still had feelings for H and saw that he had made changes to be more responsible, I asked him to move back home after we dated awhile. He did. We agreed that the past was the past. Neither of us were going to be unfaithful, lie, or do things we knew would harm our R again. H had some financial things to deal with before I’d agree to remarry. He still hasn’t accomplished that, but it wasn’t an issue that was a deal breaker for me. After we reconciled I was happy to have my family back together. H was loving and attentive like he’d never been before. We got along great. I didn’t know though that he viewed my R after we divorced as an A/OM sitch. He didn’t mention it. Never expressed much of anything about it. I didn’t feel sorry for that R. Over time H started to act unhappy and stressed again. Instead of sharing his feelings so I’d know how to help, or what to change, he bottled them up and they came out passively. Things like making remarks about the house being out of order, the kids being noisy, being bored, etc. So, having nothing to go on, I started to change to make him happy. I became superwoman. Kept the house spotless. Worked hard. Spent all my time showering him and the kids with time and affection. I planned vacations for the family, couple vacations, etc. Any time he was unhappy I tried to fix it by responding to any “comment” that gave me a clue. He lost interest in ML as often and we went back to once or twice a month. I expressed my dissatisfaction. He didn’t tell me he was angry and resentful about my OM. Doing that was a risk for him. What if I got mad and left again? I think he believed OM was better in bed so he became self conscious with performing. I didn’t know that. I thought he found ME unattractive and undesirable. Several times along the way I tried to tell H that we were heading for disaster. Our happiness was because things were going smoothly, not because we’d worked out our probs and had a better R. We just buried that past and went on. Sure enough, he lost his job, S19 went off to college and all the frustration of keeping his feelings to himself erupted. He started spending, lying, etc. Then he admitted that he hadn’t had feelings for me in a couple of years. All that stuffing his feelings from the divorce destroyed his feelings of love for me. Well, actually, all the stuffing led to depression which led to him not feeling anything about much, just wanting to escape.
I never had the opportunity to confront that I had hurt H or make amends for it. I didn’t know I needed to do that until we first started MC and he admitted his feelings for the first time. I didn’t get to tell him that OM wasn’t better than him, or reassure him when he was hurting because I worked with this guy. I didn’t have the opportunity to really be the W he needed, but I sure did want to. I changed myself entirely to make him happy but was doing the wrong things because I didn’t know what the right things were. So now, I can’t do that again. In order to move forward, we have to deal with the issues and problems together and quit shooting in the dark. I understand this is a risk for him, but I’ve shown him that I’m willing to change. Heck, I did it without him asking me to because I want him to be happy and I want to be the W he needs me to be. And yeah, even if that means I’m wrong, and have to admit I’m a hateful controlling b*tch at times and even if I have to say I’m sorry for moving on after the D even though at the time, I thought I had a right to. I mean, he didn’t corner the market on dysfunctional here. I’ve went out on a limb for us to change and to help him change too. I need the same thing. I also need his guidance and support with my probs. How can I be a wife he wants to be intimate and physically close to? How can I be his encourager vs. his critic? What can I do? I can’t get past my pain because he won’t deal with it and change to make sure these things don’t happen again, and we can’t deal with his pain because he won’t share his feelings and help me understand how I should change.
About the rest, the appointments to make, the "homework" to do, the job to find - I wonder, is H bad about things like that in general?
He used to be good about this, I think. The prob is, H hasn’t had to “do” much in a long time. I became superwoman who didn’t ask him to do anything, I did it myself.
If he has a call to make, some work to finish by a certain time, some errand to run, does he put them off and neglect them?
Depends on what it is. He’s a very dedicated employee. Household stuff.. maint, etc. if he can put it off, he will. Big arguments about this between us. If it’s golf or reffing bball, he is on top of it. If it’s a dinner date with me, he’ll forget.
Does he often let the deadline go by, doing nothing? Oh yeah. Ask him about paying his income taxes for last year.
Is this the way he is in gemeral or only with these very specific things?
Ask him to go rent a steam cleaner, spend a day cleaning the entire house, or ask him to paint a room, he’ll have it done tomorrow. Ask him to get the recall done the car, or even the oil changed, never will happen. There doesn’t seem to be a sense of priority to this except if it brings immediate gratification, he’ll make sure it gets done if he doesn’t have to put himself out *too* much. If it involves money, forget it. They’ll have to show up at the door before he’ll pay the bill.
I don't KNOW why. He says this. I don't even know what makes me quit being like that some times says this too.
but I do know it almost seems to not matter at all how important the thing is. And this is also correct for H.
I kid myself and make myself feel fine about it by telling myself I am a rebel that hates rules and "have to's" and that is partially true. This one doesn’t sound like H, but maybe he feels this way too sometimes and I’m just unaware.
I make myself feel better by telling myself how responsible I am in some things and how hard I work
Yes, H says this. And you know what. This makes it hard because it’s the same deal as with showing him the diff between him disciplining the kids and just being too harsh with them. He wants to have it black and white – I’m ALWAYS responsible because I CAN be and HAVE been and my INTENTIONS are the best. He’s said to me that he doesn’t always tell me things because he knows that if he tells me, I’ll share the *truth* with him so he lies or is secretive so he won’t have to deal with his probs. For instance (this is just one example).. he says he and OW were only friends. I know it’s a lie… he knows it’s a lie, everyone who saw how he acted knows it’s a lie, but until he admits that they were more than friends, he doesn’t have to deal with the fallout of their R being more than a friendship. Because he SAYS it was a friendship, I should have to get over it pretty quickly and he can avoid confrontation. He also can tell me that my anger isn’t justified, that he doesn’t have to find another place to work, but he’s willing to because he cares just that much about my feelings! He can avoid a whole host of probs with that lie. Like, why did he walk out on his kids and not support them? That’s scary. I understand that. I really really do. But it’s not like anyone is trying to use that info to destroy him. We want the truth to use it for a good purpose. To understand and deal with the “whys” of the sitch so it never has to happen again for any of us. I loved this man. I understand how affairs happen. I’ve been there. The not telling, not sharing is so much harder to deal with than the truth. But I think if he admits to me that he had “feelings” for her, he thinks I’ll never get over it and that’s just too much to face. At least right now, he’s in the house whether it’s on the grounds of truth or not. What I don’t know can’t hurt us! But what about preventing it in the future? What about dealing with the things that caused him to feel “out of love” with me. He cant even admit to them and blames it entirely on his depression and says I was the *perfect * wife. Except he told our friend that I was controlling, so yeah, he’ll admit he’s felt that way.
If he is NOT like that and these things seem to be the only things that he is not following through on, then I almost suspect that he is unconsciously trying to sabotage the process. Why? My best guess would be resentment. He may not even realize that he has it. He may realize it a little but pushes it down.
Bingo! This has got to stop for us to get anywhere. He’s bottled it up for years and years. Not just with me either. It’s gonna eat him for lunch even if I’m not part of his life.
If I am remembering this right, I would say that maybe even though he "owned" the reasons for the break down and even though he did terrible things (like the A), he never worked through the resentment towards you. It may be down there somewhere, bubbling up and messing things up. Just speculating.
Nope, it’s more than speculation. As I said above, this is definitely a big part of it. But if he doesn’t choose to work on the resentment and/or allow me to help, I can’t control that. I’ve changed in every way I *know* to change without his input and haven’t been able to get past these feelings. To do it now, I need a little guidance. And being the b*tch that I am, I find it ironic that after 5 years he has anger and resentment for a R I had after our D and I’m just supposed to have let everything go by now and we’re not even a year into the process. Talk about resentment.. I resent that there are different rules for me in our R than there are for him. He also does the pushing when he wants to know what’s wrong with me. But, he isn’t willing to share what’s wrong with him. What right does he have to ask for something he’s not willing to give? At least when I ask something of him, he’s free to ask it of me in return and expect that I’ll give it to him and if I don’t he’s free to call me on that too!
And would you believe, somewhere in all these "whys" H has also said that some of the stuff he does, or doesnt do, he believes he does to get my attention? So that I will confront him and then he'll know I still care. He's also said I make him a better person. The MC has told him and I that I'm not his conscience and he shouldn't use me to do that job. H is motivated by my anger. It's kinda sick really, like he needs someone or something to prod him because he's not strong enough to do it for himself. Maybe he thinks he's not worth the effort, but his family is. Not sure, I just know it's screwed up and being a part of that makes me screwed up too! CO-DEPENDENT AS H*LL and I know what healthy is. I'm ready to choose healthy!
I will say this. I see from my little half obscured view, a man who loves you and a marriage you CAN heal. I am rooting for you even if I don't come by very often. I hope you see that I agree with you more than you might have expected. I love ya for sharing this with me and for rooting for us. I know that man loves me, but to heal, it’s gonna take more than a healthy dose of love. It's going to take a committment to having a healthy R. Seeing the good points makes me doubt. I've doubted myself into staying for years. But 18 years leave little doubt in my mind where we'll end up without professional help. I can't do that without H being willing to do that too.
