First off, I want to say a HUGE thanks for posting to me earlier this week. You made very valid points and reminded me of things I've been missing, things that start sliding without realizing.
I am glad to see you've made it back to piecing. It seems so true, don't know if we'll piece it back together, but don't that we won't. Just that can be viewed as a very positive statement. Sometimes the best we can do is to keep trying.
I do know that the answer isn't going to show up on my door today, so finding peace is the best place to start. I love this statement. Can I borrow it? You've said lots of things that apply to me! I'll just wait for you to come up with the answers, okiedokie?
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
I don't know how this will work typing it out here. For the sake of the process, and maybe anyone who's wondering about The Work, I'll give it a shot. It would be a huge post to conquer my whole statement about H (and we all know I like to keep the posts short ). So I'll try with one or two thoughts and see if it's productive. I'm going to use thoughts about H and OW because the example she gives in her book was an eye opener to me personally and maybe this will help someone else who's dealing with a OW/OM sitch too. For me, I'm pretty sure OW is behind us and the anger is fading, but there are key things that still have stuck in my mind and they hurt.
These questions are a worksheet she suggests to fill out and capture thoughts about the person:
1. Who angers, confuses, sadens, or disappoints you, and why? What is it about them that you don't like? I am angry at J because he left us and chose his R with A over his family. I'm angry because he didn't love me and wanted to be with her. I'm angry because he hasn't cared about my feelings since he came home.
2. How do you want them to change? What do you want them to do?
I want J to love me. I want J to talk to me and be honest.
3. What is it that they should or shouldnt do, be, think, or feel? What advice could you offer?
J should find another job so he isnt working with A. He should listen to me and not be so defensive. He shouldn't lie to me. He should talk to me and share his feelings.
4. Do you need anything from them? What do they need to do in order for you to be happy?
I need him to get another job and not have contact with A. I need him to share his feelings. I need J to be patient and not snap at us when he's frustrated.
5. What do you think of them? Make a list.
J is dishonest. J is passive and emotionally unavailable. J is critical.
6. What is it that you don't want to experience with that person again?
I don't want to be in a R where J lies to me and won't communicate. I don't want to be M to someone who cheats on me. I don't want to be vulnerable with J if I can't trust him.
Have company.. I'll have to apply the four questions to these later.
Thanks Bruce I probably could use a little coaching! The thing is.. the 4 questions aren't all that hard, but Katie uses many other questions and observations that might be hard to get to when doing it as a individual, especially when the thoughts are strung together in order to justify an attitude or an action that's a ingrained, it might be hard to admit the truth and let it go.
Anyway, here goes, the 4 questions are; Is it True?; Can you absolutely know it's true?; Who would you be without that thought?; and then the turn around.
Is it true that J left us and chose A over his family?
J did leave us. The first time I asked him to leave, so he left, but not because he wanted to. When I asked him to come home after his A, he wouldnt. I told him that he could come home if he gave up his R with A and went to counseling, but he still wouldnt come home. He said it was because he had things to sort out and needed space. So, I thought it was because he wanted to be with her, but he said it wasn't. He called and visited and started IC, said he wanted to save our M. H didnt ever say that he didnt want to come home because of A, but I thought that was the reason. When he finally came home again, I found out that he was still talking to A and told him to end it or leave. He chose to leave. I took that as proof that she was more important than me. He said that wasn't it, it was that he didnt have feelings of love for me and that was the reason. I talked to A and she said that they weren't involved, and only friends at that point. H contradicted himself many times while going through this - he said he thought about dating her, but they knew it wouldnt work. And he said that it was never a choice between me and her, it was more that he was tired of not feeling anything and didnt want to hurt me.
Can I absolutely know it's true that J left us and chose A over his family? No, I can't know that absolutely. He had a lot of reasons for leaving, his depression, his anger because I asked him to leave, that he wanted to change and he said not living with us might motivate him. So no, I don't know that he chose A over his family absolutely. Maybe I tell myself that was the reason to avoid other reasons that would include myself as part of the problem. It would help me to avoid the guilt of asking him to leave in the first place, and the guilt of being angry at him for being depressed. Which would be so unloving, to be angry for something he had little control over. And focusing on the A is an easy way to end our R if I can't do the work to help fix it. I can just blame it on his A and the fact that I can't forgive him.
(she uses other questions to clarify) How do I react when I think this thought? I feel sad, angry, hurt. When I believe this thought I treat him badly. I don't treat him with love and respect. I push him away and reject him.
Who would you be without that thought? I'd be the person that J loves. I'd be free to believe the things he does that show me he loves me. I'd be able to accept that he's here right now and not with A. That he didnt choose her over us, or leave her for us. I'd be able to believe that he's here because he loves us and wants to be here. And I'd believe that whatever he had with A was fleeting and insignificant compared to what we share.
(clarifying question) Can I see a reason to drop the thought that J left is and chose A over his family. Yes, I can that. He left us, but came back. He didnt choose A over us, or he wouldn't be here with us right now.
Turn around "J chose A over us" - "J chose us over A" "J chose A over us" - " I chose A over us" By focusing so much on his A, being angry, pushing J away, not forgiving, I wasn't helping to solve our problems or be someone that J would want to come home to. "J left us" - "I left J. When we started having problems I asked him to leave and abandoned him emotionally and physically. I didnt listen to him and I pushed him away"
Journalling:
Going through that dialogue is an eye opener to me. I've tried to admit my part in our problems, but I haven't seen how holding on to the thought of him leaving me and it being all his fault, him wanting someone else more than me has been creating so much anger and turmoil. I don't agree with the way my H has handled so many things over the last 9 months, but I don't agree with how I've handled a lot of things either. It's hard to let go and realize that I can choose to think about this the way I have been, or to look at it more realistically. He doesnt have to be here with me. Even without OW, he couldve chosen to be on his own, but he didnt. So I guess it's time to let go of a lot of that stuff and put it behind us. I can say he shouldve done things differently, but I have no right to say he didnt do things exactly the way he should have for himself. I have no way of knowing what the right way to get through that was for him and no right to dictate that. The truth is that he's home, and the way he handled it (no matter my opinion) brought him back to his family.
Good weekend here H is actually sleeping in our room again. It happened without a R discussion, and we still havent had a discussion about it. The only thing that's come close is that he had a bad day yesterday and he said at least he gets to come home where he's loved. He hasnt made one promise about his job and I havent mentioned it either. He's not promised a thing, and I havent pried about his feelings. It's weird because I want to talk to him, but he just doesnt need to the way I do. I've been on the lookout for the ways he shares his feelings with me. He shares them, but I have to pay close attention. He expresses his feelings in very short statements. Like "I'm frustrated" and he may or may not elaborate at all on that. We had an issue with his parents that he stewed on awhile last night and was going to call his dad because he was angry. I listened and didnt say anything. I would usually encourage him to call and talk to them. And I thought about it and realized that H is different. If he called they would argue.. if it was me, I could call and not argue with them. So while calling and resolving the problem would be a good solution for me, it's obviously not the best for him because he didnt call and he's not mentioned again since last night.
Ive done a few "wifey" things for H today. I dropped the rope on everything for him personally and now I feel pretty unobligated to take care of him.. it's a relief. Tonight I made him a plate of leftovers to take for lunch just because I wanted to.
Oh yeah, I just remembered. I roasted a chicken for dinner and asked H if he was gong to eat some. He's vegetarian, but has talked about eating chicken when we do. We both used to be vegan.. the only meat I eat is chicken or turkey, fish.. H will eat fish sometimes. He hasnt been eating right and he said he might put some chicken back in his diet. It's not always easy to cook so he gets his protein and the kids have meat. Anyway, when I asked him he got irritated and said "No, why would you think I'd eat chicken?" and I said "You said you were thinking about it, but if you don't it's fine. I just didnt make you any protein" He put part of a breast on his plate and ate it and then went back and got the other part of it and said it was good. In the past this would have turned into a big debate about him eating what he wants and me ending up feeling like I was being bossy. So progress there.. I didnt push and he didnt get defensive.
I also ironed his uniform while he went and picked the kids up from choir practice. I did it because I wanted to help him out. He did the grocery shopping today and it saved me so much time. He also took the boys for a haircut without me asking (just because they needed one!)and let me relax this afternoon. In return I made sure everyone was quiet so he could nap and went and picked our friend's dog up from the kennel because they were only open for pickup while he was napping.
We're working pleasantly together around here without any pushing or pulling and that's a good change. hmm.. maybe it's called consideration for each other. We've needed that for a long time.
Did you notice that earlier you said you thought he wanted to have an R talk and you didn't want to? You said it would be same ole, same ole - he would apologize and promise to do better (God that sounds so familiar - me to my x about 10 months ago). Then, you said you wanted to talk and he didn't want to.
You are right in that he processes things differently, but maybe he doesn't want to talk because he sees the pattern too. I know I did. Somehow, I couldn't stop it though.
I think today, you both found a different way. You did acts of service for him because you love him. He didn't jump into the usual disputes over food because he loves you. Some things are working and I am so happy for you.
Quote: And he said that it was never a choice between me and her, it was more that he was tired of not feeling anything and didnt want to hurt me.
My X was trying to explain this to me just a couple of weeks ago in our talk about OW. He kept saying "she's not better than you, not at all". I didn't get it, but hearing that your H said something similar makes a bit more sense to me now.
I think you are doing great, Sheila. You sound good, you are doing some things to heal, and doing things for each other. Good for you! I'm really happy for you! VJ
Al - Wow, I hadnt noticed how me and H go back and forth on wanting to talk, but that's a great observation. I do want to talk if it's honest, but so far I see empty promises and hearing that is hard. H wants to talk I think, but it's hard for him and he fears my reaction. So yeah, maybe we're both trying hard to stop that vicious cycle. Thanks for pointing that out to me!
VJ - It sounds more believable when the same words come from someone else's S doent it? I remember when Rotzukki posted the same feelings on their thread and I said "wow.. he feels the same way, so it must be true!"
Thanks the support.. the words of encouragement help SO SO much
Just venting tonight. I feel bad for venting this, because it's fear, and I'm confused about what to do with this.
That said, I'll list some positives first. Was a pleasant day. H kissed me goodbye when he left for work. It left me wide awake at 4AM, but I'm not going to shoot him down if he's doing something sweet. He called this afternoon very frustrated because they want to change his work schedule to noon to 8:30 in Jan. That'll suck because he'll also work weekends and we'll only have a few hours a week that me and the kids see him. He had quite a long rant and I listened. I normally would have been upset anticipating the crappy work schedule, but I wasnt upset. This isnt my problem or issue to deal with, it's entirely his and all I can do is offer moral support. Other decisions are his to make. At the end of the convo he was apologetic and said "I can't work those hours". I said "well, yeah you can. You might choose not to, but you can if that's what you decide is the best option" A 180 for me not offering advice at all.
He called later and said they needed him to ref tonight and did I mind. He's busy every night this week except Weds (which is church night) and Friday (I'm taking D11 and her GFs to a movie and shopping). He knew this is the only evening we could spend together and said "I won't do it if you dont want me to" I said (cheerfully!) "I don't mind at all" He asked again and called later to re-confirm. Said he told the guy to stop calling him and asking him the day he needs someone. I told him it's fine, I didnt have anything planned except for doing a project with the kids and we could do that whether he's at home or not" I got home and he was up in S19s room organizing it. WTF? If any of you have college kids, maybe you can relate to their bedroom becoming storage in the off season. He comes home unloads.. shuffles through.. piles up, and leaves. Add to that that H put some storage boxes in there last week, it was a mess. He had totally cleaned up the room and organized some things. He took me up to see it and I told him thanks that S19 will really appreciate it and gave him a hug. He was affectionate and kissed me all over my face and told me I'm beautiful and sweet. Basically a normal, relaxed hour before he left the house, which is a good thing.
Here is the vent. This feels so much like how we used to live our life. Sounds wonderful, huh? Loving W and H.. taking care of things together, being sweet. BUT.. that's what I fear. That we'll go back to that place where we smoothed things over and our happy life was an illusion waiting to blow up on us. Underneath all the smiles and hugs were so many things that we didnt talk about or deal with. We rarely did things together or went out without the kids and we're not doing that now either. We don't spend time together alone talking or just being together. We do family stuff together, talk on the phone during the day, but when we get home, he does his thing (watches TV) and I do mine. I feel like he doesnt reach out for QT with me, or to just sit and talk with me. If I try to initiate it, it's tense and he seems irritated by any interaction that lasts more than 10 minutes. Since he's back in our BR, he's stopped doing his bible study or taking initiative towards going to counseling again. This irks me. I've often said if I'd just shut up and be a good little wife things would go right back to normal, H will be happy, the kids will be happy and I'll just stay in my own little world making nice and smiling. I've seen what is broken in our R over the last year, and we need to not just fix the last year, but some other stuff too. Not sure if we'll ever do that.
So, that's my vent. I should be thrilled maybe because I've been asking for my happy life back. For H that seems to mean creating his parents R. Go to work, come home, take care of things around here. He watches TV while I do other stuff, and then start over the next day. I was thinking today when he was upset about the new work schedule that it's not much different than what we do now except he has more time with the kids than he'll have in Jan. Other than that, we don't spend more than a couple hours a week one-on-one with each other and that's basically housekeeping and kids talk, so what's to miss in our R? I've tried and tried to express my feelings about this to him and he gets defensive. He says I don't give him credit for what he does. And I agree, he does a lot for the kids, for the household.. things he didnt used to do. How do I tell him that I need a part of him that's devoted to me personally? His time, his energy, his affection, his friendship? I've said I need that and he says he'll try and lists all the things he does to show me he loves me. When he first moved back in, we spent tons of QT together, but now that he's back "in" it's tapered off. He has a hard time giving that to the kids too. He'll take care of them all day long, but QT, as far as playing, reading, talking - he just doesnt reach out in those ways. He's never done that. Even with S19 (and it's a sore spot with S19), he doesn't "do" things with him. S19 and H agreed to get their dive certification and S19 did it.. H hasnt yet. I've asked him to take up countless activities with me.. he's tried a couple of times and just fizzled out. I truly wonder what companionship will look like when the kids are grown. I see what it means to his parents and I'd call it existing in the same house, but who knows.. maybe I'm nuts.
Maybe tommorow I'll feel differently and someday we'll start being more than housemates (yeah, I know, he can be very sweet, he hugs me and kisses me, but isnt there more than that sometimes?) And this vent doesnt mean that I don't appreciate the peace we've found (for now!), it just means that we're not there yet, and I still don't know if we will be. I'm not going to complain to H about this because although things are better, not much has changed as far as his actions towards getting counseling and learning to communicate and not lying to me (although this is bothering me less and less because I think I have a game plan for future lies)
Thanks for listening to me vent. The good thing about this one is that I don't feel *emotional* about all of this. It's just the way it is and the answer still isnt going to show up at my door tonight.
I'm so glad I came here and posted my negative thoughts! Not long after I posted last night H came to talk for a bit before bed time. He asked me what was on my mind and I told him that I was hesitant to discuss my feelings because we don't have a good track record there. I complain, he defends, I get frustrated because I think he doesnt understand and then he promises thing will be better. He accepted that and agreed. Then he talked about his day and pointed out how he'd handled thing differently. He said he knows there's still a lot to be done between us, but he wants me to know that it's on his mind and he's changing the way he thinks. He said that calling me about his change in work schedule was an example of how he's changing. Normally he would have waited until much later before mentioning it. He would have seen if he could get it worked out with his management before worrying me with it. Yesterday his first reaction was that he was ticked off and wanted to talk to me. So that's a good thing! He said that he's been looking at me the last week and seeing how happy I am and that it's wonderful to see me happy again. Then he asked again what was on my mind.
I told him that I'm afraid of living the illusion that we were happy before all of this happened. And I'm afraid that we won't make changes to keep this from happening again. He helped me to realize that our happiness wasnt an illusion. We WERE happy and going back there doesnt mean we'll end up here again. It's OK to be happy, we just have to make some changes and we're both working on that.
I hadnt realized how conflicted I've been. I miss the life we had and tell myself that I can't have it again because it was a lie. It wasn't a lie. H wasnt communicating his feelings to me and we ended up having alot of problems that neither he nor I knew how to handle.
He gave me some examples of how he's trying to share his feelings with me; calling about his work problems; expressing his anger at his parents;actually responding to me when I discuss how it frustrates me that he's so short-tempered with the kids. I didnt realize that he wasnt defensive when we discussed that, but he wasnt. I was reading Loving What Is Sat and he was complaining that S19 hadnt called even though we'd both asked him to call us back Sat. We talked about it for a bit and I finally asked him did he want to be upset and believe that Matt doesnt care about his family, or would he rather pick up the phone and check on his son? He did the latter and asked me to read the forward of the book to him when he got off the phone.
I think the thing that hit me most about our convo was what he said about my attitude the last week and the effect it's had on him. I've been happy, cheerful, positive, detached but loving and it's helped him to relax and be happy too. He said he's just so "grateful" that I'm happy again. Is that because he feels guilty when I'm unhappy and thinks he's caused it? I'm working hard on making myself happy, but it'll take awhile to get there. For all the problem fixing I've had hanging over my head with H, he may have a fair share of that hanging over his concerning my happiness. I've given him that power and that expectation. I'm aware of it now and it sounds weird, but I don't want him to determine what he does based on whether it'll make me happy. I understand that will mean of letting go of some *wants*, and taking care of my own needs, but that's the healthy way to live I think. To meet my own needs and know that what he gives is love, and genuine, not something that he was coerced or guilted into doing, even if its subconcious.
Hooray for H! I'll say it again: I knew I liked that guy! He's doing so well!! Now he's going to do something stupid in the next couple of days and it'll screw up my good mood!!!
So you keep holding onto these excellent positives and I'll hang on to the negative expectations for you.
I'd tell you to let him know that if he ends up breaking your heart he's gonna break my little heart, too, but he doesn't need the pressure.
I've been happy, cheerful, positive, detached but loving and it's helped him to relax and be happy too.
Nice.
He said he's just so "grateful" that I'm happy again. Is that because he feels guilty when I'm unhappy and thinks he's caused it?
At a minimum he worries about it when you're not happy. Which isn't your problem, is it? I mean, you being happy is your problem but not him worrying about when you're not, or feeling guilty about it if you're not.
An hey, everybody likes being around somebody who's happy. You know how you feel when he's around and unhappy, right? (I mean it would be good to be a little detached so his mood doesn't affect you much...but you get the point.)
This certainly seems a good opportunity to do more of what works...
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
). So I'll try with one or two thoughts and see if it's productive. I'm going to use thoughts about H and OW because the example she gives in her book was an eye opener to me personally and maybe this will help someone else who's dealing with a OW/OM sitch too. For me, I'm pretty sure OW is behind us and the anger is fading, but there are key things that still have stuck in my mind and they hurt.