I'm getting to a better place with myself, so that's not a bad place to be in! I've considered not posting because I know my sitch is probably less than helpful or inspiring! It does me good to come here for support and the journalling helps me get my thoughts in order. But geesh, DBing isnt going to fix us. I think it's good for ME, but not our R. H is taking baby steps in some areas, and that confuses me. A part of me would like to believe there's a fix because he's making progress, but no matter how much changes, he won't stop lying to me, and diminishing that. I also have to admit that I've made a choice to not trust. It's been 18 years and if he's been lying to me for that long, it's not likely to change. It's part of who he is and how he handles problems and that's a deal breaker for me.
He keeps saying "I realize..." like he's realizing what needs to change, but the follow through isn't there. Since he mostly lies about finances, it would be nice to see how splitting things will affect his lying, but he does lie about other things if it suits him to. He hide anything at all that's negative, or he just doesnt want me to know it... sometimes the smallest silliest things to me. Then there's the emotional manipulation. I'm afraid he's just broken, and I can't fix him. I also can't justify putting myself through this much longer. I look at him and feel sad because I know he's in a bad place and there's not much I can do to make that better other than to continue sacrificing. That sacrifice has chipped away at me for so many years, I'm tired.
It could also be that he's felt some sort of pressure that's been lifted. I hope you at least let it feel good that he does, in fact, desire you. Even though he has problems with it sometimes. Maybe, I know the pressure has been lifted off of me and I'm not anxious about things as I was. And, you're right of course. He does desire me. I'm female, arent I? Seriously though.. I've told myself since the A that he must not have found me desirable and that was a load of cr*p. Maybe the problem is simply that we have different needs and levels of desire. There have been times that he hasnt desired me at all.. he's admitted to that in the past. And he's said that it had nothing to do with me really. Maybe that's the root of the problem here.. it has nothing to do with me. He told our Dr. that, and got an interesting reply awhile back. Basically if you're in a committed relationship, it has to be about the other person or being consistent will be hard. He said (and I'm just giving the gist because this is second hand from H) that if we can't reach out and give our S something they need just because they need it, we'll always be falling short. He asked H if he could stop living his life on whims. Basically, can he decide he's going to do something because it should be done.. needs to be done, not just because he feels like it and can see that there will be a payoff for doing it. He asked H how he thinks it would be to live with a W that only cooked or did his laundry when she felt like it or when she ran out of clothes and needed clean ones. He said, you'd be wondering if she cares about you because you're hungry and can't she see that? He asked H if he considers what I'm feeling and ever thinks I need something from him that only he can give me.
I agree with the Dr. wholeheartedly. And I think H does too, but he's, gosh I dont know how to explain it. He's missing the mark. I think he must have a very deep seeded problem that contributes to his dishonestly. And I think he'd like to change that, but hasnt been able to. In other areas, he's doing great. He doesnt shy away from me physically. He's been suzy homemaker around here. Every night he's had dinner finished or in the process of making it. He hasnt even balked when I've been late coming home a few nights, and that's unusual for him.. to give me space to do what I need to do. I asked him to stop calling me 50 times a day, and he has. He's cut back on pursuing me and trying to convince me that things will work out. He says it and I can tell he believes it still, but he isnt hammering me with it constantly. All of that and we still had an incident last night with him lying about writing my checks.
I've hidden them all over the place, but he's been persistent in finding them and writing them when he wants. Like I said, he has a bank card, so it's silly for him to do that. He says he hates to go to the ATM and take the money out - he'd rather it take a few days to get there. WTF? And I'm not sure what he's spending on.. probably nothing really, but it defies reason to me. I guess he wants me to always think there's more money in the bank than there is. I can't get past this one.
He said last night that things have been "so good" between us the last few days and we're going to work this out. Again WTF? My feelings havent changed, but it goes back to his assumption that things are getting better if I decide to do no harm and treat him with kindness and caring. If I'm not pushing him away in a way that's "real" to him, he thinks we're making progress towards staying together. Then if I tell him that's not true, I feel as if I've led him along in some way that I don't mean to. Any consideration I give to his needs or feelings he sees as me working on our R and a sign that what he's doing is working, and it's not! He can cook dinner, clean, put gas in my car, hug me, whatever for the rest of our lives, but as long as he's lying and hiding things from me, we won't be together. And he views that particular problem as just him not doing it anymore - after this time of course.
So there you have it. I'm getting independent and detached. My feelings for H are weird. I look at him and feel surprisingly unemotional about this. I feel a little fear of the future and dread the transition we'll have to make, but other than that, I don't feel despair at losing our R.. I think we've already lost the best parts of it. I also don't feel that feeling when you look to the future and thing it's going to be so much better without this person in my life. That's kinda a relief. I went through that when we D, and it wasn't SO much better. The emotional pain wasn't less (just different), and I didnt move on to do all those great things I couldnt do married to H either. So, at least this time I understand there's still a lot of pain to work through whether he's here or not. Life is going to get harder negotiating a split and I'll have even more responsibility on my shoulders and less time for myself. So what do I get for going through this? I guess just waking up and not worry about my S working against me and lying to me. The kids don't see H doing what he's doing and me supporting that. That's a biggie. How can I teach the kids to not do something that I accept from their father? Maybe the hope that there's someone out there for me in the future too. Don't know about that one. 38, 4 kids, lots of baggage, and much fear that I'll end up in a sitch like this again. Maybe all I'm aiming for is the satisfaction that I'm OK, don't deserved to be lied to, cheated on and used up. And, I'll be able to play my tunes at any time night or day without competing with a TV or someone complaining!
My friends and family that have been so supportive of me wanting to work this out with H have started sharing their feelings with me. Not saying "get rid of him", but more in line with how I feel I think. It's sad.. it's sort of just an acceptance that he can't/won't change. Matt told us last night over dinner that my SIL (H's B's W) wanted him to pass along a message. She said to tell me and H that they're here for us always no matter what and that they miss us since H has been distant with his parents. And she wanted Matt to tell me that she thinks "I'm a really neat person and she loves me to death." Neat? LOL She plays stump the chump with me all the time.. I'm the person she calls when she has a monumental child rearing problem. The last time we talked she said "If only you could get Joe raised..." She's right and it's time to give him his wings. I told my mother that the only option there is right now is to just let him go out into that big world and figure it out for himself. We take that approach with S19 and he's doing fine, so maybe it'll work with H too and at least the kids will end up with a Dad that's able to stand on his own two feet and live truthfully. If not, maybe they'll have a mother who's focusing on things she can actually impact and has more energy for them. I imagine the reduction in the stress level will make a major difference to everyone.
Gossip.. I'm making progress in noticing positive feedback from others for a change! Maybe that comes from loving myself more and my PMA is going up. That flirty friend at work is still doing that.. it's cute. Not tempting, but I'll admit he flirts with me. It's nice to be able to notice that and believe that I'm someone a man would want to flirt with. And another man at work - an older man who's retiring soon - a buddy that I've shared healthy recipes with for years, looked at me and said "Sheila, you're a good looking woman". Dang it was nice to hear that and not wonder what the other person wants or is up to. Just to accept it and say "thank you!" was such a gift. There's hope that this whole thing won't make me bitter and cynical after all. I kind of shut down my PMA and joy for life a year ago.. I think it's coming back and I see that in my interactions with others. Just small stuff. K said I was getting stuck up awhile back and I said "no, just withdrawing to protect myself I think". But I'm not doing that as much. One of the IT guys walked up behind me and pinched me on the waist to say hello and smiled as he continued past me. So I know whatever else Im doing, I'm relaxing that "leave me alone" vibe I've been carrying around awhile. There were even several hugs from co-workers as I left yesterday for T-day vacation and it was very very nice to be back among the living.
I was reading your thread and sounds as if we have common situations. Unfortunately, I am just very confused.
Your comment about not being able to maintain a marriage so just being friends is where me and my W are at. We are great friends....but not sure if we are great S for each other. Like your mom's first H, I had some issues and cross a line that she said not to cross. Alcohol only. I guess in the past she always let the line move but if finally taking a stand or trying.
Anyway, we have talked about needs for each other and I can honestly say I have done a 180 in my life. Feel good about myself but missing something. That emptyness you spoke of is great for me. I have talked about my needs of having an emotional connection with my partner. We have not had any physicial intimacy in quite some time. Although I have told W that this is important in a R for me, she has not tried.
I am wondering if I am just trying to hang onto something that is just not going to be there? Am I just being unfair to myself in trying to work on us.
I am wondering how you came to that decision. I have taken the step back from W and realized that when I visit, I feel no love from her in any way. I know that she cares and does love me but for one reason or another, cant show it. I find more and more that when I visit, I walk away angry about the situation.
I am not sure what to do....give up and D? Go dark? We have been separated for almost 5 months. What brought you to your decision about your H.
Any input or advice would be appreciated!
CIAZ M 7/97 S 5/05 D 8/06 Both 33 years old No kids
Hi AZ Boy, I wish I had good advice to give that would help ease your confusion. Unfortantely, I'm finding in my sitch that the confusion is part of the process of making a decision that's painful to make. Do I hold on and hope and maybe end up here hurt again, or do I let go and hurt and maybe be alone and empty. Each choice has its positives and negatives. I think the thing for me is realizing that it'll be painful, but I'll ultimately be OK without this R. I'm going to have to fill that emptiness up with something, it just doesnt have to be H, or maybe as time goes on, I'll accept that emptiness as a part of being born into this world alone. Burgbud had great insight into that a couple of posts ago and pointed out that some people turn to God to fill that emptiness. And depending upon your religious beliefs that could be a way to turn. I'm a Christian, and I understand that dependence on God in my life, but my focus on H and our R has slowed down that relationship and other Rs in my life. I think instead of looking at what I'm missing with H and how good it COULD be, I'm going to have to look within myself, turn to my God, and my family and friends when I'm feeling empty and alone. Being concious of what I'm doing to fill the emptiness is going to be key for me. I had in the past a pattern of turning to another R, or things that aren't good for me to keep from feeling empty.
How did I come to this decision. Hmmm.. if I've decided once and for all (the confusion remember). By overturning every stone for a solution, by giving everthing I have for the last 5 years and still arriving at this place in our R. That, and I recognize in H an pattern of thinking that I'm not sure he'll ever change. I can't describe it, except that he doesn't see things the way I do so I know it would be almost impossible to negotiate a better R with him in the future. I don't doubt that he loves me deeply, or that I feel the same about him. Given what we've been through, we're surprisingly close. But, the lying.. deal breaker. I'm admitting to myself that I can't get past that, so why even ask H to try to climb that mountain? We both have the potential to lead happy lives, but to do that, I honestly believe that we need to be free of this life together. He wakes up with a mountain to climb every morning..not a clean slate. And, I wake up with a mountain of doubt too. I can see him moving on, becoming financially responsible and maturing. And I can see him starting another R determined to not make the same mistakes and not starting a cycle of deceit to avoid conflict. I hope for him anyway! I can also see me starting anew, although not as clearly as H. I think the potential for him to change is greater than for me. Because the things I'd need to change are being able to deal with dishonesty, and being understanding when promises aren't kept, etc. I don't see me embracing those values, but I can see me choosing a mate that isnt passive or insecure, or that will dread my reaction if they have bad news. H's probs I can see him taking to his next R if he doesnt change, and I can see me taking mine along if I choose the same kind of person. Dont get me wrong.. I have loads to work on to have a healthy relationship in the future, but it's mostly going to be working through how I got here, and how I've allowed myself to become such a fixer, controller if you will. I think the more I take care of myself and set boundaries in my Rs the more I'll distance myself from the cycles we've had in our R.
So.. I guess if you define your goal and stick to it, and try everything possible, you'll know when you need to make a decision. If your W isnt working on your R or meeting your needs, you'll do much better the more you work on GAL and meeting your own needs, accepting and loving yourself. And there might be a day when you look in the mirror and say "I'm worth more than this. This isnt my fault. I need more than this, and if I can't have it with W, I give myself permission to stop trying because I've done everything I know and she's still not in the game with me"
Good luck AZ. Don't fight the confusion. Accept it as part of the process and let there be a limit to what you'll put yourself through for another person. There comes a point (and I reached it long ago, and each person has to decide what that is in their sitch) when we're not giving them love, we're just denying ourselves self respect in a last ditch effort to show them how much we love them and care.. always hoping they'll see the light and change.
Happy Turkey Day to everyone, and good luck to you AZ. I feel your frustration, and I'm sorry you've found yourself in this place.
Thanks Piglet2 for the kind words. I really do appreciate it. I see and understand everything that you have shared. This is a very difficult process. I don't wish it upon anyone.
I think my W has that same vision.....waking up with the mountain. Was/is there anything that your H could do to change that view?
I really think that this is what she is facing and is unable to find an answer (I have asked and she says she doesn't know).
Maybe that is the point where both need to step back and realize what is really possible.
CIAZ M 7/97 S 5/05 D 8/06 Both 33 years old No kids
Are you saying that your wife is dealing with a mountain of doubt, or a mountain to climb as far as changing?
Is there anything my H could do? Absolutely. He's had a couple things written down for months. He could start by never lying to me again and sharing his issues/problems with me honestly. He could call our MC and start going again, or find someone else to go to, or even schedule Retrovaille, and then WORK on it. Work on and understand how destructive our methods of communicating with each other are. If he'd do that, I'd be behind working on this again at least because we've been there and he played at it. He could call the sitter and take me out on a date.. or he could just wait until our next Thurs off (when we dont need a sitter) and plan the day for us. He could quit rescheduling his psych visits. He could show me that he's willing to work towards something that takes an effort and not just glide through life doing the easy stuff. Set a goal and work to get there would be good! Lets see.. he could get his hiney out of his job and away from OW. He could start a bible study or start praying with me and the kids again. He could stop being defensive and making excuses when there's a problem and start helping me look for solutions that work for us both. Then he could stick to what we agree and not change his mind without talking to me first. He could manage his money and stop hiding his spending from me. He could show an interest in what his kids are doing instead of acting like Im a nag when I mention something he can do with them. He could deal with the probs he has with his family instead of keeping the rest of us in suspense wondering if they'll be a part of our lives in the future or not. Right now he refuses to take our kids to see his parents, yet plans on going to visit on Christmas.. dont get that at all! Anything that would show me that he is thinking things through and acting on fixing what needs to be fixed instead of smoothing things over, making excuses, promises or forever saying he's trying, but just can't get there would be WONDERFUL. He's helping out a lot more around here right now but he's not taking responsibility any more than he ever has. If he just picked up a R book and read it from cover to cover (there has to be 10 in the basket by the couch right now!), I'd probably be shocked speechless for days. Let alone how I'd act if he wanted to talk about it or apply anything to our R.
See, there are a million things he could do, but he chooses to keep going down cheeseless tunnels. I bet you asked that question to get some insight into your sitch and what you can do? I think the best bet is to just ask your W and ask until she can tell you what it is. Because, if my H asked now, he wouldnt get the list I typed above.. I've already asked for those things many times with no results. Repeating it just give him an opportunity to promise that he'll do it.. and hopefully I'll believe that promise and we can get back to normal on my belief. Unfortunately, if he wants to change anything, he's going to have to revisit what he can do all by himself and start working on it in a way that screams to me that he's willing to work on our R and change.. and BTW, help me by letting me know what I can change for him too because it's a two way street. I've always been willing to meet his needs, but he's rarely shared them with me. So, I scurry around and try to figure out what he wants/needs.. to be the best person I can be for him and then fall short in some way.
Anyway, I'm sorry for the rant in answer to your question. I didnt know there was so much that I'd like to see from H until you asked, and I also didnt realize that at this point, I'm through enough to stop asking him for those things. I'm almost afraid he'll start changing because it certainly feels like it's too late now. The trust isnt there... I can't promise it could ever be there for him again. To commit to a R that I feel I'll never be able to relax in again is a scary thought!
Off to bed for me! We've been cooking most of the day and having a good time. Everything is ready to set the table and enjoy Thanksgiving. The kids always write what they're thankful for (on some holiday themed construction paper shape) and stick it under the dining room table glass. They havent done that yet, so I'm excited to see what they'll say. Matt has chosen pilgrim hats..lol. Other than that and mashed potatoes, we're ready to eat! And play S2 has learned how to play UNO so I'm looking forward to having our first holiday card game with the entire family... just hearing him call out the right colors in his sweet little voice warms my heart.
Happy Turkey day to everyone.. can ya tell it's one of my fav holidays? FOOD! Oh yeah, Brooke made her first T-giving food (Matt does pumpkin pies). An apple autumn cake (I think). It looks yummy.. cream cheese frosting, and it's so moist and crumbly, they were calling it the leper cake. The cake kept crumbling under the heavy frosting. We pasted it together pretty well and she didnt shed a tear (major accomplishment for my little perfectionist). Ty helped bake some cookies, and I heard Brooke say they were going to bake some more in the AM, so maybe the boys will have something to bring to the table too. We love to cook together as a family and with Matt away at college, it makes it all the more special to just have him here for awhile messing up the kitchen makes home feel more like home.
blah blah..ramble ramble.. too much coffee today! g'nite!
It's been a nice few days here. Not as emotionally tense. I've had the days at home with the kids and except for T-giving, H has been working. Have had some great discussions with S19 regarding his R with his GF and how serious they are, and I think S19's head is in the right place... no worries of an impending wedding anyway!
H hasnt said ILU this week at all, and seems to be detaching some, but still throwing the occasional dart my way. Asking if I'm OK, attempting to get me to discuss my feelings I think. He's kissed me on the head every night before bed and said "sleep well". We all went to the movies last night and he asked a couple of times if I'm OK. I said, "yeah, I'm fine". And then he said "Im worried about you". I asked why and he said, "because I care about you. Every once in awhile you get a look on your face that makes me worry" I said "I'm fine really. Dont worry about the looks I get, they're nothing I'm sure"
Last night I re-read a good bit of love must be tough. I can see H's questioning, and last night he re-emerged from the bedroom to inquire again if I'm OK and kiss me on the top of the head, so I know he's getting anxious for a R talk to see where I am. I also know from the past, that a R talk will lead to him defending anything I say, and promising to change, telling me that we're going to work this out, and it'll be fine. So, I say I'm fine, because any other response will lead to a reassurance that we're going to make it together and put him back into a comfortable spot believing we are. The last R disc we had, I was very clear that things are not going to work with the way they've been going.
Anyway, I re-read Love Must Be Tough and decided to reinforce our last convo with a letter. I can say what I need to say without H defending or promising, etc. It will prevent an argument and allow me to clearly state some things without H downplaying my feelings along the way, and me having to argue with him why things won't work this way and them him saying "but I'm trying!"
I wrote the letter and left it by the coffee pot. Here is the gist, but not word for word:
Dear J:
I just wanted to write you a not to tell you that I'm OK and there's no need to worry about me. I'm getting to a much better place and I have a lot on my mind, but not to worry you at all.
After several emotional months which led to me pushing for what I thought we needed in our R, I've been able to step back and see just how hard I've pushed and that it's not fair to you. I have no right to demand/control what you choose to do, or what you think is best for our R. I apologize for not understanding that you're not ready or aren't able to do some of the things I've asked.
I want to reassure you that I've had the best intentions for us and didnt realize how hard I was pushing you to give more than you're able. When I asked you to leave your job, it was because I know I cant trust or have loving feelings for you when you still have contact every day with her. When I pursued counseling and insisted we go, I was trying to get help for us so we could start to re-build our R on a good foundation. The bible study, the same... I honestly thought that learning to communicate better and share our feelings would lead to us finding solutions to our problems. I didnt realize that you werent ready for that and would struggle with opening up and working on our R. The suggestions about the Dr, meds, your health in general, finances, were all made to encourage you to take care of yourself and get to a place where we could give us a chance by working together. I see now that you werent ready for such a big burden, and I accept that. I also accept that we are very different people with different wants and needs. And it's OK. I don't ever want to push you to a place where you feel guilty and inadequate, because you have a right to live your life without me judging the way you choose to live it.
I want you to be happy and have a good life. I'm glad that we've reached a point where we can be friends and not hate each other, because I think lately we've been working towards that. That's not the outcome I want for us, as we have four good reasons to maintain a caring R with each other.
I hope we can both support each other as me move forward and work through our problems individually and lead our separate lives. Maybe some day I'll learn to push less, and you'll learn to be more open and that you're capable of more than you give yourself credit for. I regret that we havent been able to work through our differences that last months. I appreciate the effort you gave to our R. I know from our conversations that there are many things you've wanted to do that you just havent been able to right now and I don't hold hard feelings towards you at all. All I had a right to ask is that you try, and we've certainly given it enough effort that we can both move forward and feel that we've done enough.
Please don't worry about me, every day gets a little better, and although I don't know exactly what's making you worry, I can assure you that I've arrived in a much better place the last few weeks than I've been in since this started. I only ask that you be patient with me when my moods reflect feelings that are at times difficult to work through. I'll be patient with you as I know that you have issues that are on your mind too.
Had a note from H this morning:
Lil (my pet name that he hasnt used in weeks),
I left my van keys in your purse. I got your note and would love to talk to you about it. I miss you.
Love,
JJ (his pet name that I havent used in weeks)
I ran to the grocery this morning and while I was gone, H called. He didnt call at all while he was at work yesterday. He left a message for S19 to tell me that he loves me and will call later. H called a few minutes ago to see if we want to decorate for Christmas this afternoon while S19 is home, and told me he'll call me back when he leaves work. No ILUs, no mention of the notes or talking about it.
After replying to AZs posts above I realized that there are things H could still do. He has the list and knows what it'll take. Basically him pursuing counseling and showing me that he's working hard on it and will get MC with me, finding another job and taking responsiblity for his finances, and not lying to me anymore about anything. This is the minimum, the rest can be negotiated. He knows all of this. I'm not going to repeat it, and I'm not going to respond to promises for him to deliver in the future. My only indication of his commitment and intentions from now on will be his actions. Because truthfully, it's great that he wants to do what's right, but if he never follows through, it doesnt matter. He'll want to talk today probably, and I need to figure out how I'm going to handle it, firmly, but lovingly. I know from the past, that he'll want the convo to end with me saying I'm going to keep trying, and then we can pick up our R again in a way that's comfortable for him.. without the distance, me withdrawing my feelings (this drives him nuts), withdrawing affection, and with him being able to verbally express his feelings and know that I've been reassured that he's trying and it's going to be OK. Well.. it's not going to happen. Going grey and withdrawing and not pursuing is having an effect on him. It might be the biggest way to encourage him to take action. And yeah, if he has to move out on his own to realize he has to take responsibility, then so be it. These are deal breakers for me and I won't move forward until I actually see that he's being honest, taking finacial responsibility, taking responsibility for the affects of his affair, and considering my feelings instead of smoothing things over with words.
So, my goals for the convo are:
Act AS IF I'm fine with things the way they are and don't expect him to change just to make me happy. Reinforce that I know he's been sick and I understand that he just can't do some things for our R right now, and that it's OK If it comes to this: explain to him that I won't consider a future R without counseling and seeing some changes first. That I think it's unproductive to argue about what he can and cannot change right now and that I'd rather accept things the way they are and be his friend because the cycle we've had is destructive for both of us. Tell him that I have a lot of growing to do and am excited about doing that and enjoying life again. That I care for him and hope we can have a caring friendship for our kids' sake. That I hold no ill feelings for him and don't blame him for what's happened.. we're both responsible for our shortcomings in our R and that I'm proud we gave it the effort we have. That I'll be patient while he gets on his feet and help if I can as he decides when/where he's going to move.
I'm afraid there will be a point where he gets angry with me at talk about moving and separating. I'm not sure how to handle that exactly. I dont want to argue with him. And I dont want to put the burden on him either.. such as "well, if you'd have done this or that.. but you havent" For whatever reasons, H hasnt been able to follow through on things, but it really is OK with me at this point. I don't want to live that way anymore, but I'm tired of being angry. It might be the depression, his passiveness, whatever the reason is, I'm not holding it against him. But, I don't feel that I need to just be patient until he changes either. That's doing us no good and it's not loving. It's like hearing an alcoholic promise he'll quit drinking and supporting that. I can't be loving and stay in a dishonest, manipulative R with H anymore. So, how do I say, we need to split but it's OK and I don't blame you, I just accept what you can give and it's not what I need right now without unleashing the anger, promises, etc?
So, how do I say, we need to split but it's OK and I don't blame you, I just accept what you can give and it's not what I need right now without unleashing the anger, promises, etc?
You say it just like that and don't take responsibility for his response. Sucks, huh?
It might help if you consider that it'll probably take him a day or two to digest and come to terms with this. He'll be driven to give you an immediate reaction but that won't be his final thought on things. Give him space to come to grips with what he actually wants to do.
And don't take responsibility for his response. Much as you want to, much as you always have. Let yourself feel a little bad for him if you have to, then quit it!
Glad to hear S19 is so squared away. He gets it mostly from his mom, I'm sure, but his dad must be pretty okay as well.
Have a good day!
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Hi Burgbud! Once again, thank you for your sane and insightful comments! Don't take responsibility for his reaction (geesh, I'm not good at that am I? Thanks for pointing that out ) And space.. yes, lots of space on this one. I'm fully expecting that he'll have to move out on his own to start making positive changes for himself, so I'm gonna have to be the queen of giving space, yet remaining supportive and kind. His reactions, defensiveness (justification/guilt relief).. I think are mostly a struggle with himself too, so I do feel sad for him because he's fighting himself on these issues too. I mean, even if I wasnt pushing, I think he sees the same goals he'd like to accomplish... at least hes said that "As much as you want me to change, I want myself to change too". This will be a big 180 for me in attitude by accepting that he's a good person who's struggling with some big issues, instead of seeing him as my H who doesn't care enough to give our me/our R what it needs. Might need a reminder on the "quit it!".
You're right about H being a good Dad. I posted a long time back that Matt going off to college was one of the things that sent H into a downward spiral. I dont know how a man feels about his oldest son, but I do know that H is VERY much invested in Matt, although they've maintained a somewhat strained R until lately.. it's easing just a little. H has always pushed Matt to be his best and said he doesnt want to see him make the same mistakes he's made. We've butted heads about this over the years. Matt is someone who takes reasoning very well, and is soooo easy to communicate with. He's stubborn and sticks to his guns, but always cares what we think and in conscious not to rebel so much that he's disrespectful. So, I basically take the lets talk it out approach with the kids and H takes a more heavy handed approach (except.. hmm.. he's a very inconsistent disciplinarian, and negoitates much more than I do). He allows them to push him to his last nerve with negotiations and then he puts his foot down mightily. We've been having curfew issues with Matt since he went off to college. He's an adult, self supporting and doesnt see a need for a midnight curfew anymore. It irks us to no end when he's out until 1-2 AM with his GF. We know he's not up to anything immoral.. they are hanging out at her house and her Dad is within earshot. But still, it's our rule and we expect him to abide by it. He hasnt been and I've been discussing it with him. H is at his breaking point with it. Matt doesnt see a GOOD reason for him to be home by 12, and it's hard for him to respect the rule because of that. We talked for an hour about it yesterday and didnt agree... and in the end, I had to use, this is our house, we have 4 kids to raise and just because you're responsible doesnt mean we can not expect you to follow the rule this time. He said he could understand if I was pacing and worrying until he comes home, but since I'm not, what's the big deal? He's being stubborn, and yet, he has a right to his opinion too. He spent the night at a friends last night and he's called twice this morning saying he'll be home. H has already asked where Matt is, and I know he's unhappy. But I think H and I approach this from a different perspective. He's having a REALLY hard time letting go of Matt, and I'm finding it much easier and enjoying watching him expand his horizons. H is trying to find any reason to exert his control over Matt's life when he's here and it's driving a wedge between them. He seems to resent any time Matt spends with his GF, and that's not good at all! I mean, I understand the house curfew, but I don't get where he can control how S19 spends his time.. especiall when it comes to his GF and his friends that he doesnt see enough as it is. H just seems jealous I guess, but doesnt plan things for him and S19 to do together.. so?? I'm dropping the rope on giving him advice on this issue too. It might get rough between them, but I've always played the referee and it's time to stop that too for both of them. H has a right to his feelings even if I think he's not being honest with how hard it is to let Matt go and that he misses him, and is instead just trying to control his time. Matt would definately respect and listen to his Dad's feelings and if he needs more time together, he'd do it. I've had times like that. Where I want time alone with my son, I miss him, I'm just having a hard time and when I tell him that, he's always sure to make a little time to hang out and talk. It helps so much more than arguing about where he's going and who he's with!
If I said H is having a hard time letting go, I could say it again. And we had quite a night here between S19s GF pouting because he wanted to stay here and decorate for Christmas and H being upset because she was being controlling with S19. Long long story, but I think the issues have been resolved. I have to hand it to Matt, he has the patience of Job. And he didnt sweep it under the rug with his GF, so that's a positive!
H and I did have an R talk last night. Good evening, he was helpful and happy while putting up the tree. Sat is soup night at our house so I made chicken noodle, and tortilla soup and hoagies.. baked some PB cookies and made spiced cider. Was yummy and left us all complaining about how much we've eaten this week! Just a wonderful evening with the people I love.
H didnt mention talking and neither did I. He smacked me on the butt playfully a few times while I was cooking, and asked me for a hug. Then when I was changing into my night clothes he came in the BR and watched. I didnt say anything, or act like I picked up on what he was doing at all. We watched "A Christmas Story" with D11 and H waited until I was ready to go to bed before he went. I know he was very tired. He's sleeping with me since Matt's home, but I was still surprised that he wanted to talk that late and lying in bed.
H: I don't know how to answer your not M: I didnt expect an answer, I was just trying to tell ou that you don't have to worry about me. H: Really? You're really OK right now? M: Yeah really. I mean, not that this isn't hard, but I'm in a better place and can accept that we're not going to work this out H: Do you feel a sense of relief? M: hmmm.. relief in the sense that I can let go of working on our R and giving it so much of my energy. But it also comes with a burden of the future. What am I gonna do.. being a single parent, making my own decisions. So not relief, I just accept where we are and that I can't control or do anything much about it. We've given it 7 months and havent really gotten very far together and I don't see where giving it more time is going to help all that much. I mean, this stuff has been going on for years and years. H: Well, I know I'm not giving up on us. I'm still going to do what you've asked me to do. M: You don't think you could let go too? I mean, why put a lot of effort into doing things to make me happy at this point? I mean, if it couldnt be done while we're together, will there be motivation when we're not? H: I need to do this stuff for me too. And I can see what you've been saying and what you've asked of me and it's all things that I need to be doing whether we're together or not. I feel bad because I know I've caused this and hurt you and the responsibility is on my shoulders. I need to make it right with me and with you if I can. M: This isnt about blame.. really it's not. Maybe in the past I wouldve agreed, but maybe it's just that this R isnt good for either of us and we need to accept that. Why does it have to be it would work if... or you did this or I did that.. ? I mean, you're a good person and have a right to be who you are without me telling you that you need to change, or pushing for changes you don't choose to make. H: You really think that? I don't think I'm such a good person. Look what I've put our family through in the last year. I'm not giving up on showing you that I can give you what you need.
Then I talked a long time about how I feel and how disappointed I am that I've allowed myself to be pushed as far as I have. And that I allowed myself to stay in a R that wasn't working for me and a place where I was so angry, resentful and full of hatred. I said "what does it say about me that I don't recognize that me pushing for you to change should have been an indication that our R was impacting me in a way that was destructive? I should know if I feel a need to change someone to that level and keep pushing that I need to step back and get out before I change who I am in order to cope. I should never think I have a right to demand that someone else change because what they're doing is something I can't deal with. I communicate that, but to take over, try to fix things, try to live someone else's life because I don't agree with how they're living it is just wrong. I never ever want to be a hateful, controlling, b*tch again in my life. If that means that I have to set boundaries and realize that I can't control how someone treats me, but I can control if I'm in that R or not, then that's what I need to do.
That's basically it. H asked me for another hug this morning and I gave it to him. He was discussing some job stuff with me. He has to go in to work at 4AM and apologized for that... I told him it's OK with me and he doesnt need to explain his work schedule to me. The he was telling me about some extra money he has coming in and I told him that it's his money to do what he wants with. Reminded him that we're financially separate other than sharing the bills here. He said OK.
Better interaction on the same subjects. I feel appropriately detached at this point. A little sad, but not pushing to work through that. The goal is to get through the holidays and enjoy my family. The rest will work itself out and I don't need to push for separation or a resolution. H isn't holding on with grippers and that's nice. If nothing else, I think he realizes there's been a line drawn in the sand and I'm not budging. What he chooses to do about that is his choice. It would take so much to keep us together, but I'm not going there mentally either. It puts me into "work on this R" mode and I definately need to be working on ME right now. Looking forward to it! I'm finding out that I am capable of relaxing and not as naturally driven as I've thought. I just don't have the motivation to do much right now but relax and figure out which direction I'm gonna row my boat. Oh, and I'm giving up unecessary apologies. I'm doing quite good at it too. I realized after my T-giving nap that it was something I would've felt guilty for in the past.. need to stop that!
Have a strange sense today that I might actually be starting to DB. Has anyone else experienced this? Like, why wasnt I doing this before because it seems to be working (baby steps) in the right way now? I mean, the past had progress.. H coming home, honeymoon period, but the emotional intensity and stress was overwhelming to deal with every day.
Now I'm relaxed, detached, cheerful and kind and things are actually better. Not just nice, but I see H doing things that show he's considering me and not trying to smooth over. Havent had a manipulative promise in a couple of weeks, only that he intends to not stop working on this. He's taking sleeping upstairs and my detachment pretty well. Only the "are you OKs?" alert me that he realizes things between us are different and not fixed.
Lets see. He hasnt rang my phone off the hook. No incessant ILUs while he's acting like he doesnt. It's just different. He called to let me know he was home for work this after noon and when I answered he said cheerfully "there's my sweet baby doll". He's been calling me "girlie" too. A very upbeat way of expressing affection rather than the clingy, needy, way he was doing it. Maybe he's learning that he'll be OK if it doesnt work out too and the pressure if off from me. We are officially financially separated (except we share the household bills). He hasnt balked once since agreeing to this. He's off refereeing tonight and making some extra money for himself. He asked before he left if I mind him going and I said "of course not!". And, he told me to feel free to pick a night a week to get out of the house because he realizes I'll be doing the lion share of the evening chores during basketball season. He's NEVER done that. In fact, when I've mentioned it in the past that it would be nice to have a night to do my thing too, he's actually blamed me of being jealous of basketball and said he'd stop!
He called me while I was driving home and said "I'm not trying to be controlling or rush you home, but it's really storming and I wanted to make sure you're OK"
Myself, I'm feeling pretty detached, yet friendly toward H. I used to tell him everything and now I don't feel I need to. I had a dillema this morning on the way to work (left my badge locked in the fitness center), and I had to ask someone come and drive me through the gate. I didnt mention that to H and didnt feel like I needed to. I bought myself a new outfit and didnt think about whether H would mind or not. And now Im thinking.. maybe this is how a normal R should be? Not sure.. define normal. Partnered with intimate moments, but not totally wrapped up in each other all the time. I'm hoping the space will take the pressure off of H and he'll find a way to stop lying because there wont be a need. Does that make sense?
Anyway, off to bed with me.. things are OK for now.
Boy, I wish I had good advice to give that would help ease your confusion. Unfortantely, I'm finding in my sitch that the confusion is part of the process of making a decision that's painful to make. Do I hold on and hope and maybe end up here hurt again, or do I let go and hurt and maybe be alone and empty. Each choice has its positives and negatives. I think the thing for me is realizing that it'll be painful, but I'll ultimately be OK without this R. I'm going to have to fill that emptiness up with something, it just doesnt have to be H, or maybe as time goes on, I'll accept that emptiness as a part of being born into this world alone. Burgbud had great insight into that a couple of posts ago and pointed out that some people turn to God to fill that emptiness. And depending upon your religious beliefs that could be a way to turn. I'm a Christian, and I understand that dependence on God in my life, but my focus on H and our R has slowed down that relationship and other Rs in my life. I think instead of looking at what I'm missing with H and how good it COULD be, I'm going to have to look within myself, turn to my God, and my family and friends when I'm feeling empty and alone. Being concious of what I'm doing to fill the emptiness is going to be key for me. I had in the past a pattern of turning to another R, or things that aren't good for me to keep from feeling empty. 