My wife exhibits similar insecurities. Earlier this year I had a work related conference to attend in San Diego. Loved it there, the weather is incredible. This required me to fly cross country (coast to coast). She was so nervous that something might happen to me during the flight, that she wanted me to get an additional special life insurance policy that would cover some in-flight tragedy. She said that she remembered that there used to be "vending machines" at the airport for just that purpose. You simply inserted money for the policy of your choice and out pops your instant travel life insurance policy.
No, I did not get one, I already have life insurance. However I did call her on my cell at take-off's and landings, through my connecting flights. Just to let her know I was safely on the ground.
It does make me wonder though, if something were to happen, what are the chances of her or some fire/rescue person finding the receipt to that airport insurance transaction???
"And wrinkles only go where the smiles have been." J. Buffett
SD--I have fringes on my cowgirl boots--and I guess that might make me look like a sissified westerner. But I have 2 other pairs of boots in my closet as well--and one of them is brown leather with a stiletto heel. That's hardly a cutesy look. I wear them when I mean business...
Lou--I still laugh at your funny paragraph about being old vs. previous. You really do crack me up!
I'm glad you find my musings helpful. I'm now a whole lot more inclined to spill my guts, and posting gives me practice on saying how I feel. In general, I think this place has been good for my health.
Books... well, I just finished End the Struggle and Dance with Life by Susan Jeffers. I found it a most helpful read and the audience not targeted to male or female. I also am a huge fan of Byron Katie's I Need Your Love--Is It True?
H2H recommended Susan Jeffers' Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. I guess I'm going to have to display my reading material in flight, because I really do want to read it before my fiction selection next to it.
I also started re-reading portions of Shortcuts Through Therapy by Richard Carlson. Good info on thought stopping there.
Or are you looking for a particular subject matter?
Where all the recommended reads here are excellent and designed to help us work on our R with others, lately I'm into books that help me understand myself better and feel happier. I should probably take out stock in B&N, Borders or Amazon...
Let me know if you have any specific areas of interest, and if I don't know, I'll ask my friends.
I'm glad you see my sexual orientation is obvious. When making friends, though, it's immaterial to me. SD is a really wonderful lady. I'm still up to taking her as my date to the gay prom in February, but that means she needs to come to Denver to go with me. If not, I have my standing date--a really good friend who doesn't mind that others think we're a lesbian couple. We've been seen together in that world for so long that I know people think we're committed partners. And that's just too funny.
But I really do like men in bed. It's just me.
Have a great Sunday!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Underdog. I was happy to see you posted to greekgoddess thread. She, along with you, ( I think it was you that said your dad slept on the recliner) gave me some insight about how staying up late and not sleeping with BB was causing problems.
Quote: Lou--I still laugh at your funny paragraph about being old vs. previous
Well, Betsey, the background on that one came from a college class. The prof. said he was disappointed the students were writing papers using words like high school students would use. He said we were in college. He said, for example you can sweat in HS but educated college students perspire. He said he did not want to see any more sweat hogs he wanted to read papers from perspiring swine.
The word old can be taken several ways if taken out of context. I was playing it safe and writing so a person with little English experience (certainly not you Betsey) would know what I wanted to convey. I wanted to be a step removed from "folksy" style writing.
Quote: Or are you looking for a particular subject matter?
I was thinking, I am/was a little like Mr. W and stuffed some feelings with BB or typically don't say much until my feelings get cooking and say some things that come across as somewhat angry.
Example. I bought a car from a relative. It had a defective tire on it but we did not know it at the time. I replaced the tires and told relative about the bad tire and how much better the car handled and rode with the new tires.
The relative heard, "you sold me a car with bad tires” and they should have replaced them before selling the car to me.
What I had in mind was "Those tires looked good and I guess I was not as good a tire expert as I thought I was and I am surprised how much improvement this different brand of tires contributes to the ride and handling of the vehicle. BB and I get into this type of interchange that is what I want to improve.
A couple of weeks ago, with the prodding of BB's "Act like you are rich" relative, she and I looked at a Hummer3. I told the salesman I had no intention of buying the H3 and suggested we might be wasting his time.
I knew he was on commission and even though I appreciated his help, I did not want him to lose a potential sale with some other serious customer. The sales man was interacting with me as if I were interested in the H3. I said BB was interested and I was along for the ride and we really had no business looking at something like a H3. (Information=BB's car is a 1997 compact SUV with 39K miles on it.)
When we got home BB told her friend that I "knocked her block off" with my comments at the car lot.
With the above information, If I were a little like Mr. W and BB were somewhat like the "former", not old Betsey, which book would be your favorite. My goal would be to learn to detach more (which I have done and continue to do) and to change some of the dynamics of some of BB's overly negative opinions of what I do to her and maybe help her see some of the good things she seems to miss and feel like she is being cheated out of some how.
Quote: I'm still up to taking her as my date to the gay prom in February, but that means she needs to come to Denver to go with me.
Betsey, you have me beat on the same gender subject. I have no problem with most lesbian relationship or issues. Intellectually I understand most of the reasons for gay relationships.
That is saying a lot for me, considering 39 years ago when I saw a guy kiss and make out with another guy out by the lake, I almost threw up, really. They were 300 feet away from BB and me. I think some of my reaction back in 1966 was biologically based.
I still get up set internally when I read about gay men hooking up with several partners but I also have a similar problem with guys that seem to have a new ho every other day. I have one gay customer that is a little flamey (touchy feely). He is OK but I would not spend an evening with him.
I have since watched several gender change programs on the TV medical channel and had a couple of college class sessions on the subject. I was the only guy in a "Women's Issues" class. Two of the women were lesbian and told stories about their gender preferences and some of the problems the work at to overcome. One woman was mostly heterosexual but was raped and treated poorly by men. Sad story, I think it will take her a while to recover her identity and safety issues.
Quote: But I really do like men in bed. It's just me
Works for me. Any more comment from me might be considered flirting. I have to maintain my "doing the right thing" immage.
Lou I think you are building up a lot of resentment over things you do have control over.
For instance.....you are entitled to meet people or have friends. This isn't something I would ask her permission about. Lots of couples have friends whether thjey be male or female.
If you want to take a vacation but she doesn't like to. Then just go and have fun. Realize it is her choice to do what she wants to do. She is a grown up and can take care of herself or find things to do while you are gone. It seems like you are almost scared to go away. Lots of couples also take seperate vacations.
The money situation to me is easily resolved. I would sit her down and say listen we are retired so the money we have needs to last us through our retirement years. But SEPERATE you finaces totally. Make a list accordingly with what money she has and ask that she pay some of the bills. For instance okay say BB you pay the electric. If she doesn't and it gets shut off then she will have to pay it right away. Maybe she could learn something about money that way. If she wants to shop and blow her whole retirement funds then so be it. Try not to resent it. Just let her know that it is all the money she will have because you finances are going to be seperate. If she runs out of money she could always take a part time job. But you have to be firm and map out a plan and talk to her about it. But then stick to it. The way I see it if you appointed her to handle some of the finances and seperated your finaces it seems you would have a lot less resentments.
Also Lou you don't seem to want to put your foot down with her. It's like your afraid to rock the boat. Maybe I am wrong that is just my impression. You made a couple comments about the Leave it To Beaver kind of mentality. Where I guess the women didn't work and the husband handled everything. Well, that also included the husband handling the finaces. Not the women shopping and spending money like it was going out of style. Seemed back then the men very much ruled the house. The women were very submissive I guess the word is to their husbands. But by what I have read I don't think you are firm with your wife at all. You just keep caving in and letting her do whatever she wants.
On some things I can see her point. Lou..I bought a furniture set 5 years ago I think, and this year I am going to buy a new set. I don't think I would ever keep a set 25 years. And honestly I am not a spend thrift. I know lots of people who change their furniture quite a lot. 25 years is a looong time to keep something. I could see her wanting new.
Thanks Cally. When I have time, I will reply to your post.
The C session was supposed to be 10 minuets of "here is my problem, here are examples, and 40 minuets of what do think are alternatives that will result in changes. The time balance was the reverse.
The C asked me to look ahead 50 years to my grave stone and asked if I wanted BB name next to mine. I said No, not really. Then he asked what keeps you together. I said past plans of how things I imagined life with BB would be, all of the work I put in the R, the house, and the retirement fund. Getting the kids through college, and all of the other things we had to do as we progress through time.
He asked why I continue to work on the R. I said if what I am doing works the goal will be reached. I also said I had some problems being a good partner and wanted to fix as much as possible before moving to the next step. I said repairing as much as I can will make it better for both of us no matter what happens. I am also thinking time limit but don't know when the end is the end, or the end for a couple of days.
The C asked what changed? I said BB is doing her thing, has been for many years, has a different take on what she wants in life than me, seems to think throwing money at what she see as problems or things she wants that she thinks will make her happy, she does not seem to like much, we as a couple, bought for the house even though we spent several days working out our differences. Now it is what she wants but she does give me a say if I really dislike something.
The C talked about giving or doing things with unconditional love for the other person and not expecting something to be returned. Do it because you want them to be happy. I gave a couple of examples of doing things without expecting something in return but I don't think the C saw past my question earlier that I feel like the giving is mostly one direction.
The C said lots of people divorce over lesser issues and was puzzled about why we stay together. He said behind all of the dissatisfaction is something strong that keeps you two together. I said the M was really good at one time and BB has moments when I feel like we are a couple but out comes this person that is always wanting more, won't eat something because it has the wrong cheese on it, I used the wrong pepper, or someone said something she did not agree with and then makes an issue of it.
If I order a burger w/o mayo and get one with mayo, I eat it. If that happens to BB sometimes she eats it, sends it back, and sometimes tells me the cook should be fired.
The C asked how my book readings were helping the situation (leading question from the C) and if anything in the R was changing. I said things were changing, I sort of fix one problem and another old thing that was in the background gets worse.
The C said books are not going to help much and the Internet forum is a bad idea. He was of the opinion that most of the posters made little progress and the forum was a place to swap stories how bad out spouse was.
I suspected he thought some people on the forum used it as a dating site. I tried to assure him that did not generally happen.
He said any time spent reading books and posting to people was taking time away from the R and thought some of BB's problems with shopping were to fill a void with her feelings that I somehow don't fill.
After a while of the C talking about doing things for someone you love and doing them because you love them, not to get something IE no strings attached, I ask so, what am I supposed to get from the R, what if I need something.
I brought up BB's not wanting me to fly to see my sisters because there was a TV news article about how much air cargo is not inspected for explosives. I said BB also keeps bring up, If I was blown up in an air plane what would she do with my business inventory. BB wants some of that gone before I go on vacation.
The C thought BB's resistance to my solo vacation was she is concerned for my welfare, she really will miss me, does not want any thing to happen to me, and is concerned that once on vacation I might not come back. He said I should ask BB these questions when I went home. After the initial hostilities noted below, I asked the questions and the C was right.
The C thinks BB sometimes has a version of a "F you" attitude towards me and asked how I react and feel about it. He asked what I do about BB's F you attitude.
I have been using some of HairDog's tools mildly for some time but need to up the energy. The tools are: 1. "Don’t treat me with disrespect." 2. Stay out of HER sh!t. 3. Allowing her bad behavior gives her a reason not to respect me, so don't allow it. 4. If I give her information, and she reacts badly to it, that's HER deal, not mine. I am not responsible for how she reacts to what I say. She is. (This assumes that I don't tell her things with bad intent).
BB did not know I went to C and when I got home casually asked how my day was going. I said I went to see C, she asked why? I said I am having trouble adjusting to her numerous reasons for wanting to look at things and saying she is "just looking" but buy instead.
BB was upset I saw the C and said "so I supposed you bitched me out to C and make me look bad," then she got angry. I said If I want to see C, that is my option. I went to work and closed the door to my shop.
The afternoon interactions were cool so I asked BB to go to a fast food place to eat. Her attitude changed to being more appreciative.
We ate and BB was pleasant, almost a turn around from the AM.
I worked on the bedroom flooring and finished it up. BB checked on me several times and showed some concern about me, not only asking when I would be finished.
Back to something the C asked me. Why does BB stay with you? How does she see you? Why does she love you? What are her reasons for being up set with you, so I asked.
BB said I was too tight with money. I should be mort like relative age 75 with 20 years to pay on a 30 yr home loan, who also bought a video camera from a guy flagging people down on the expressway. There was a brick in the box.
BB said I do all sorts of things for her but take too long. BB said she likes how I rub her back and feet but that it leads to sex too often. BB said in general I am a good/wonderful person but she can't get past the things I have around the house for my business.
I gave my guestimate of the above to the C in the AM when I was at his office and said sometimes I feel appreciated by BB but have often felt like BB's employee. The male figure in her storybook version of what a woman wants or should have from life. (That is just a feeling I have sometimes)
Today it's back to BB being worried about her new furniture and will I have the trim painted by tonight and do the final cleaning of the floor before the new things arrive.
C's advice: Drop the Internet. Quit reading books. Don't take crap. Do things for BB without expecting anything in return. Stay out of her money issues. If you need to, move on.
Note to all. All of this has been run through Lou's filter without the intention of bias, but you know that is not 100% possible. some it is venting. Any opinions welcome. Sorry if this post is along the lines of "same stuff, different day.
Quote: ------------------------------------------------- C's advice: Drop the Internet. Quit reading books. Don't take crap. Do things for BB without expecting anything in return. Stay out of her money issues. If you need to, move on. -------------------------------------------------
If you were looking for internet dates, then I would agree with #1. Otherwise, ignore it.
If you spent all your time reading books that railed against spouses by assigning blame ( plenty of 'rant' books out there) then I would agree with #2. Otherwise ignore it.
I agree with #3.
On #4, I agree with the premise, with the stipulation that you ask for what you want from BB rather than trying to work up to it.
#5 I have maintained from the beginning. Separate your finances and let her spend herself broke. Then she can go back to work to pay her half of the bills. You can't fix her habit.
#6 Fix what you need to fix on your side of the issues. Give it a year, then move on if need be. Regardless of the plan, you need to have one.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
C's advice: Drop the Internet. Quit reading books. Don't take crap. Do things for BB without expecting anything in return. Stay out of her money issues. If you need to, move on.
First off, good for you for going to the C on your own. Secondly, the C is probably 100% right with that list in terms of actually CHANGING your life around. Notice I didn't just say the M. Let's face it, all of us could stand to lay off the internet and R books. We use it often as a diversion from our life instead of actually improving it. We rationalize our actions by saying it is better for the R/M. Come on. It's better for US. We get support from each other, etc. But how many true success stories do we find? Not many. The C is correct that if what you are doing now is not giving you the results you want, than stop and do something different. I'm not telling you to stop posting at all. I'm still here, lol. But I am trying to look at it as a means of support and if it helps here and there to deal with my H than even better. It is not a means to an end though (a happy M). Same thing with all those R books, you can read those non-stop but if you are just reading and not applying, than what is the point. Someone very knowledgable about R who can't practice what they preach? I'm not speaking of you specifically Og_Lou, but all of us in general. Liked # 3, stay out of her crap and don't take her sh*t. That HAS to show some results. Maybe not the way you want in the M but I bet you feel better about yourself The next one: do things for BB without expecting anything in return, ok, to a point, but come on, you don't want to feel taken advantage of either, taken for granted, not respected. Fine line there. Stay out of money issues: sure, it can only lessen the conflict. And last but not least, if you need to, move on. Hopefully, it won't come to that but the fact that the option is always there may relieve some of the overwhelming tension/stress/depression associated with the M right now. Thinking of you.
Quote: If you were looking for Internet dates, then I would agree with #1. Otherwise, ignore it.
No dates NOP.
I am looking to make myself more attractive and compatible to BB. If it works good, if not well maybe I and some one else will benefit.
Quote: #6 Fix what you need to fix on your side of the issues. Give it a year, then move on if need be. Regardless of the plan, you need to have one.
I am fixing what I can. It is more work than I expected it to be. I have to let go of some of my ideas of marriage, which causes detachment from BB, and the time line may be 6 month to a year.
I started this do or don't I/we want to be together in 2003 when I told BB I would rather live in a dump than have daily deliveries from QVC, LL Bean, collectable plates, and when she spent her mothers $7,000 checking account money on what ever. She had 6 cats, most peed on the carpet in the living area, 4 dogs-2 bit me and her several times, and 2 big messy/loud birds.
Quote: #5 I have maintained from the beginning. Separate your finances and let her spend herself broke. Then she can go back to work to pay her half of the bills. You can't fix her habit.
She would never go back to work. She said she did not like working so often, her parrot says the same thing. No I can't fix her. I almost quit trying.
I am not saying you are wrong NOP and all, but for me to stand by and watch BB continue to spend like she has done in the past, my opinion of her would be so low, I might just walk out one day. I don't want to start makingt remarks that she considers put downs. I want to be with some one that I respect. I have a difficult time watching some people practicing their addictions. I would rather have a tooth filling changed than watch them over indulge. I don't buy into the 30 pair of shoes, 5 pressure cookers, 8 electric roasters/cookers, mentality. What is the idea behind $1,000 worth of radios by your bedside so you can go to sleeep? I am for getting what you want and keeping it for a while. I am just not into newer, faster, flashier things.
About detaching/enabeling, I did read Lil's post about how to handel a drunk. Don't fix up their messes, don't try to shame them into doing the right thing, go to alanon and when the drunk comes home and passes out on the lawn, let him/her lay there.
Eventhough I post some resistance to some of your advice, I am taking it in and going that direction.
I wear them when I mean business...
Betsey 
I have to maintain my "doing the right thing" immage. 
But I am trying to look at it as a means of support and if it helps here and there to deal with my H than even better. It is not a means to an end though (a happy M). Same thing with all those R books, you can read those non-stop but if you are just reading and not applying, than what is the point. Someone very knowledgable about R who can't practice what they preach? I'm not speaking of you specifically Og_Lou, but all of us in general. Liked # 3, stay out of her crap and don't take her sh*t. That HAS to show some results. Maybe not the way you want in the M but I bet you feel better about yourself 