I don't disagree with your thouights that we have to move forward and show the kids something positive. I also understand that you can't draw blood from a stone, nor do I want a W to stay "for the sake" of vows.
But therein lies something that may be hard for many people to understand. The vows should take on a deeper meaning, and with the Faith that accompanies the vows (M is a sacrament in the Catholic Church), you don't just stay for their sake, the vows are to become living, breathing unifying works of the Holy Spirit that transform them into the kind of love that truly makes the two of you closer to one.
This may sound corny to many, but I know through my own experience and faith journey that Christ DOES help us through times of hurt and wounded pride and the journey in Christ is in large part the journey of turning away from pure self-interest and turning closer to God. That journey is transforming (born again if you will), but IMHO, cannot be taken fully, or dare I say honestly, if we choose to define God solely in terms of our own wants, desires, and needs--as so many of us do--including me.
So yes, vows with no moral backing are meaningless and empty--the basis for many an annulment and broken marriages. And as I said in my earlier post, I will not be shackled by the losses incurred (or harbor deep resentments), but the loss cannot be ignored and still stands as a model of how things should be--and I see nothing wrong in aspiring to that.
I'm not Catholic either, my views are a mix of Wiccan and Spiritualism. I do believe in God, though.
I think that true marriage of the heart has very little to do with religion. Couples have been uniting and having ceremonies to establish this fact since they drew line drawings on the walls of caves. I think that although the church can be comforting, it is also dogmatic and brings a lot of red tape to love.
That said, I don't agree with divorce as if the people genuinely love each other, love is unconditional, it doesn't change when circumstances do - REAL love, that is.
I loved Andy when he loved me, when he didn't. I loved him when he was ill and when he was healthy. I loved him with money and without. It doesn't matter what happens if you truly love another person. You care for them more than yourself, that hurting them would hurt you.
As Shakesphere put it, 'love is an ever fix'ed mark that looks on tempists and is never swayed.' - he put it really well there.
If the other partner, like Andy for instance, ends up not loving that person it's because their love was superficial and conditional to start with.
And now when I look back and think how he's treated me, I think to myself I am better off without his kind of love.
But I do view D as a way of disposing of people - emotional murder, if you like. It would be like me giving birth to a baby and then saying, 'no, you're a boy, you're not what I expected so I'll give you up'.
A husband or wife is just as much a relation as a son or daughter and in my opinion shouldn't be thrown away as if there was no such R. If you have children with that person, then it's the children that suffer - look at mine without their mother and DD4 living without her sisters, so you should do EVERYTHING to stay together once there are children.
But it has very little to do with churches and 'God's Law'- that just comes across as self-righteous.
But I do view D as a way of disposing of people - emotional murder, if you like
Jo, exactly, emotional murder is one of the best descriptions of D I have heard.
"Puppy love", "instant lust", etc are signs of immature love, not real love. I think mature love is a choice. I chose not to act on the opportunities to get involved with other women when I was married to Dawn. I couldn't always stop the fantasies but I could use my maturity to know that the lust would not last forever so don't commit "emotional murder".
Wow! What a great debate. It reminds me of the fable of the 8 blind men and the elephant...
JM, a new R or attention/attraction from/to an OP does pump up the PMA, just look at the WASs who have their OPs. When Professional Lady (PL) and I talked briefly yesterday eve, my mood was elevated, and in turn my interactions with S6 were more positive than when I'm in a moopy, down mood.
S6's sights are set on his family, though. He drew a very nice pic in art class of three 'snow ducks' including hats, scarves, snowballs, etc.. that were of S6, XW and I. I'm not sure what would happen to his mindset if one or both of us had an OP.
I'm leaving the deeper meaning of D and remarriage, etc... to the Big Guy. I don't think there's a clear answer. I think you're right that the best way is probably harder than the 'wrong' way, and that it is important not to be a resentful sufferer or martyr. I plan to live a very happy, fulfilling life. To do otherwise would be to allow myself to be doomed by my XW's decision to leave.
Had a nice convo with XW solidified visitation over break - splitting his time roughly 50-50% b/t the two of us. She asked me to speak to him, as he was crying hard about not taking home a kitten that they had seen at the animal shelter. They are looking for a cat. I reassured him that his mom would do her best to look, and when he asked me to 'help', I said it was b/t her and him. In our time together, XW had 5 pets that she eventually got rid of due to her growing tired of them. I see pet adoption as an introduction of a new permanent family member, so I'm staying away from this topic, letting her find her way.
When she pressured me about getting a dog for S6 for Christmas, I stated, "Well, I know that you'll do the right thing for you and S6 at your place, and I'll be doing the same for my household by getting a dog at the right time. I'm not sure Christmas is the right time for us at my place." Then I shifted topic back to less allergenic cats.
I'm getting very detached from her and wondering if either my love for her is gone, or if I'm becoming the WAS. I'm taking it slow with PL, and just putting my learning into play and practicing to be in a healthy relationship with a woman while with her. She is so much more mature. Is MLC behavior immaturity or just a normal phase of life?
I think I'll enjoy these holidays at a level I never expected to, even two months ago - independent of what happens with XW or PL, I'm just content to be in my own skin, and to be going in the direction I'm going.
Quote: I'm getting very detached from her and wondering if either my love for her is gone, or if I'm becoming the WAS. I'm taking it slow with PL, and just putting my learning into play and practicing to be in a healthy relationship with a woman while with her.
In my view, without question, the first, second, and third easiest way to move on from an old R is to get a new one. My online dating ventures confirm this, as just a simple online chat moves W to the back burner.
But remember, love is a decision. So what is really happening seems to be that the chemical/emotional bonds of your R with XW are diminishing while new emotional bonds (perhaps even substitute) are being developed. The trickier question is the one you are gently handling now: "Where do you go from here?"
For me, it's like living in parallel universes. The first is maintaining a sliver of hope for family unity and livng a chaste life in fidelity with my faith--even if I don't always like it. The second universe involves letting go of the old, trying to accept that it doesn't exist, and moving forward in a new life. It's pretty tricky because I know the old one actually existed at one time and I can't block it out of my memory--especially when I'm still operating at some level in that universe with regard to my children.
But I'm not demanding answers, just taking one day at a time to see if any new light comes my way. Have a great weekend my friend.
Quote: It's pretty tricky because I know the old one actually existed at one time and I can't block it out of my memory
The old relationship isn't one you should block out of your memory, but it is only fair to let all the memories surface, not just the pleasant ones. As I meet various WAWs or at least wives that initiated the divorce, the common theme seems to be an intimate knowledge of the faults and mistakes of their Xs. They hold some memories, but they are grabbing on to the negative ones. Even the LBSs that have either adjusted or have no more desire for a R with their Xs keep in mind that life would not be peachy with their X back in it. It's only fair when you are considering a relationship with anyone to consider the negatives as well as the positives. I don't think dwelling on negatives is a healthy thing, but rational consideration of what the X actually brings to the table is only prudent. In most every other situation, we learn from our mistakes, or at least hope to, and relationships should be no different. Keeping the past in mind is useful in avoiding the mistakes in the future.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
I've been lurking quite a bit and watching the debate here, mostly because I'm not terribly far from where you are right now.
Quote: I'm getting very detached from her and wondering if either my love for her is gone, or if I'm becoming the WAS. I'm taking it slow with PL, and just putting my learning into play and practicing to be in a healthy relationship with a woman while with her.
This is exactly where I was at in July, right after my birthday. I was really on the verge of moving on because I had finally healed enough to know that I was truly going to be alright, with or without SO.
And, as you may recall, just about the time I came to that realization, SO came to his senses!
I'm going to venture a wild guess here, since I have a reasonable sense of your XW, based on the many, many conversations we've shared. If/when she starts sensing your growing detachment, I would predict one of two things -- she'll either do a 180 and start pursuing you (especially if she finally gets that she has some serious competition), or you may end up seeing her level of hostility increase, especially toward you. If this happens, again it will be because she's starting to figure out that she screwed up by letting you go, but it's still internal.
That said, if you see neither of those reactions when she figures out you have found a really good one, then that may be your cue to really move on, my friend.
I'll be curious to read your posts in the future. Just be sure to take it very, very slow and enjoy where you are right now! You're doing a wonderful job, my friend! <applause for Gabe!>
G - what joy to read that you're in such a good place to enjoy the holidays!
As a total sucker for dogs and cats, I am so glad that you're not enabling XW's cruel acquisition/disposition of yet another pet, even in the face of S6's begging -how much more painful it would be for him to have to say goodbye to a pet she got tired of. Geesh! What does her history with those animals say about how she treats people - goodness!
Hi Gabe...following your thread and you are one of the real role models on here as you have not doubt been told countless times...I have really read through your sitch and you have handled it so well!!
My thread is "Separated and Wife Still Wants Space - HELP!!"...please keep me informed if there is a Florida DB get together...
Thanks, keep up the great work and God Bless!!
My Story http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads...=5&o=31&fpart=1
But I do view D as a way of disposing of people - emotional murder, if you like 
<applause for Gabe!>