another thread another opportunity another insight

[Greeneyedlass]

Blackfoot,

Wow, that was quite a bit to put into one post....but it's quite apparant that you are doing a great deal of self-discovery that has needed to be done. It's time for you to take some time to concentrate on YOU and, as you have said yourself, why you did some of the things you did in your M.

I realize I only know brief portions of your history with your W...but when you mentioned that you had allowed OM to move in I thought to myself that you were setting her up to fail the fidelity test. Did you do that intentionally, I don't know...it's just what I thought when I read that.

A friend of mine went through a similar experience, only she was in your W's shoes at the time. She found herself becoming more and more attracted to someone who started out as a mere friend and business acquaintance. Her H neglected their M in many ways and often put the two of them (my friend and OM) in situations to "test" them. I could see in that situation what was eventually going to happen...if he kept throwing the two of them together eventually they were going to have a weak moment and give in, that's exactly what did happen. From an outsiders perspective though it appeared that he orchestrated it. As often as he pushed my friend and his friend together it was bound to happen. It was almost as if he was daring either of them to hurt him that way. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's how it appeared to me.

Did she make a good choice at that time? No of course not. I remember one specific time that my friends H called me at the office all upset about his W cheating on him....but he also proceeded to tell me about all the times he left them alone in private situations....when he already suspected at the very least an attraction between the two of them. I couldn't help myself and asked him "if you think she's cheating on you then why in the he!! would you leave the two of them together for hours on end in your house?!"

Now, this is just me speaking of course, and this is what I told him too....if I thought my spouse was attracted to someone the last thing I'm going to do is leave them in a situation alone with the other person, it was alsmost as if he was daring them to do something....which eventually they did when the right situation presented itself which included alcohol and a weak moment.

I'm not excusing what happened....just illustrating how I can see someone setting their spouse up to fail a fidelity test. You mentioned that you might have pushed her as well by testing her....but by allowing OM to move in, you also set her up to fail. What she did wasn't right though...please don't think I'm excusing her. What the OM did wasn't excusable either....and I hope this isn't coming off to sound like I'm making this all out to be your fault, that's not my intent either. She and OM have to take responsibilit for their actions....I'm just looking from the outside in on a situation. Primarily the one where OM was living under your roof.

I may be waaaaaay off base, just throwing in my 2-cents....or really my observations.

I must admit that there are times I wonder if my H is testing me as well...and in some ways setting me up to fail. His 1st W cheated on him. I don't know why for sure, but she did. I know many people who would have given in on an A long before now if they were in my sitch too....but for me, I'll D before I'll have an A.

GEL

[Lillieperl]

I also agree with stig and honey... as I've said other places an A doesn't "just happen." Even if one wanders unknowingly (and I question this in anyone older than 15) to the edge of the abyss, there is a moment (or 50) where you look into the abyss and know exactly what it means to jump in there. People do not just fall in there... and they aren't pushed either. Someone may push ON them, but it's all about choice.

I'm not saying a person can't be deluded or lie to themselves... but believe me, there is a turning point on this path and you KNOW when you're making the turn. It might be something as simple as the first hand squeeze that's held a few seconds longer than it was in the past, accompanied by the glance that says, "will we or won't we?" Or it might be telling your partner you're going to be one place when in fact you're headed to the other side of town (or out of town) where no one will recognize your car. When you're at that crossroads, you know it. And you know with total clarity that you can decide not to go further. She decided to go further. You didn't make her do it. She may have done it 100% in reaction to you, but she's still the one who took the step. And BTW, after taking that first step, she could have stopped at any time.

What would it mean to you if you gave up the idea that "you ruined her"? I'm curious what the payoff is in that belief? Does it preserve a shred of her innocence if a combo of you and OM did it to her instead of accepting that she was a Big Girl and made this choice of her own free will.

Does this have anything to do with your attraction to your assistant? If you can be allowed to believe that your W acted out of some innocent miscalculation, does that make you "innocent" too and diminish your responsibility for the emotional involvement with your assitant?

"Innocence" isn't necessarily an appealing or a practical virtue in a man or woman past adolescence.

________________________________________
Changing the subject, re trained therapists, if I'm not mistaken, karen and her H are therapists for real. At least I believe he practices. K may have transitioned from practice to non-profit administration. And Lou and his BB both have experience working with troubled women/teens.

[chromosphere]

"Fear is the Mind-Killer"

I LOVE Dune!! Read all the books (including the prequels that Herbert's son has been putting out recently). The Bene Gesserit Litany against Fear actually works IRL. Try it sometime.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

[Stigmata]

--Re-read Leviticus 29:11. I will transcribe it here for you to save you the effort:

"I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord. Plans to prosper you and not to hurt you. Plans to give you hope and a future."

My concentration lately has been suffering. Up all night due to work as well as further a-has about role in R demise.

I meant to say "Jeremiah, 29:11."

Hearing this PA insight from the women's perspectives/feelings here has made me further realize the fragility of fidelity when stressors ongoing in R. Rehashing: High EC in R but very low PC in R and some arguments when received "not in love with you", "no spark anymore", etc. lines after x trips socializing, drinking, etc. with D M/F "new friends" at hotel conferences. X even related to me how one D M was laughing how many Fs with wedding rings suddenly have amnesia about their Ms during same. Sigh. Relaying that a positive. Openness? Or Deflection? And supposed to be business talk. Obviously lot more going on.

After bomb I asked earnestly/directly if there was "spark" with OM, any OM? Knowing will make my life MUCH easier in terms of moving on (didn't say this latter 'moving on' part). Said absolute NO. Kept pressing earnestly. Still NO followed by "What do you want me to do? Lie to you?" Uh, no, but you lied before. Even Michelle says forget it, you won't get a straight answer if you ask.

Sigh. First PA defended via lies until discovery. Frame of reference destroyed. Same problem as Blackfoot. Cusp of children. Can I have next 40 years of doubt? DBing (LRT) by default. Saw remorse over PA but not a mind-reader as to level. Argh! Rubbing temples. Need to reconcile own feelings about trust...

-Stigmata-

[Stigmata]

Chromosphere,

Yes. I LOVE that litany. Can hear Kyle McLachlin's voice in my head repeating it sometimes when I'm facing fear.

Stigmata <-Copying and pasting your text of litany to Notepad as I speak...;)

-Stigmata-

[sat567]

Stigmata:
Can't you at least change your signature line to the O'Reilly's recorded call about the loofah/falafel?

Something...anything other than Pat O'Brien

Hairdog, who customizes his sig line for each occasion

[Cobra]

Blackfoot,

I have been watching your thread from afar, like others, and can see you are down at the moment. I know you are still trying to find some answers but nothing seems to quite click yet. Frankly, some of your answers don’t make complete sense to me either, as HoneyPot also said. I see you have mentioned narcissism a few times now, after USSwede commented on it.

I know I first blasted you pretty hard about this. And while I was too hard at the time, I think some of what I said has validity. FWIW, here is a slightly different impression of your sitch for your consideration. It is only theoretical. I cannot know how accurate I am:

During this past year you have moved a long way in better understanding women and relationships. I don’t think it is due so much to hard work and study as it is to just taking notice. You mentioned that you were gifted in school, graduating early, breezing through classes. School was very easy for me too, though I did not graduate early. The problem for me was that I got a false sense of confidence. Freshman year in college as an honor pre-med student was an eye opener. I sense you had some type of similar issue too. I switched majors and stuck it out. You went to work.

For a gifted person to work in the blue collar field at such a young age, it was easy to rise quickly to the top. It was also easy to get very full of yourself. Your natural personality played into this, but your success confirmed, it in your mind. The focus turned to seeing how high you could go, and how quickly. Things came your way too quickly. Everyone else was too stupid, incompetent, blinded. The sky’s the limit. I think this is where you ran into trouble. Anyone who gets too cocky ultimately will have their awakening. I had mine early in college. You had yours later, so you had risen higher, but then had farther to fall.

[Aside: If you watch the stock market, you will see similar patterns. Bubbles always develop in the same way. Prices rise too far, too fast. The move becomes parabolic, emotions go crazy, everyone jumps on the bandwagon, any short positions get squeezed until everyone gives up fighting the trend. All available money buys into the rally. Investor optimism is universal, but the top is at hand. Then comes the crash. This cycle in mass investor psychology is very consistent and has repeated through out history, the NASDAQ crash being the latest example (gold will be next).

So you rode your own wave up, and then back down. After all crashes, it takes some time to put in a bottom, before prices can slowly start to rise again. You are putting in that bottom now. As things start to look up, be aware of moving too fast. That is why humility is so important. It slows your ascent and results in a firm foundation and a sustainable rise, one that is not susceptible to a crash.]

I am wondering, at this point, if in this state of heightened optimism/arrogance, you had moved to CA, brought out the other man, etc., thinking you had everything under control. In fact so much under control, that you could afford to help him out, start a new career, in a new state, away from her family, all because you saw the world through rose colored glasses. You were too successful and wanted to share that with everyone else, to help out others. But wasn’t this drive to be altruistic really meant to fed your ego? You were in a mega-manic state, conquering the world, and couldn’t see the things crumbling at your feet. At that time I think it may be possible that you lost track of the minor but important things in life, like your wife’s feelings and insecurities.

If this is true in any way, then I think it is also possible that you had an air of arrogance in relating to your wife and friend, and they may have been put off by it. In other words, could they have become fed up with your BS. Only you couldn’t see it as BS. Your intentions were honest and good, you were just too caught up in your own success. But they could see it. You were much cockier on this board a month or so ago. I suspect you were even cockier in real life a year ago. Could that be so?

This in no way excuses the behavior of your wife and OM, but it could explain why they felt justified in doing what they did. Could they have seen you as too arrogant and controlling? The fact that did ran off together speaks of their insecurities, meaning that their view of you would have been even further magnified. Do you think so?

This is how I saw you when I posted my attack about narcissism. If my theory is valid, then you were somewhat blinded to yourself, which was a narcissistic act. It doesn’t mean you are this, but you did fall under the spell for a while. You are smart enough to simply step out of that role. And smart enough not to fall back into it.

About your wife... You mention that she is Asian Pacific (also something about pesos) so I guess she is Philippino (Philippine peso). Regardless of her nationality, all Asians have a strong sense of family, duty, responsibility rooted in a shame based system. There is merit to this system, but it has problems too. Wives are not prone to speak against their husbands, are taught to stuff many of their feelings. Family members are too enmeshed and parents are too controlling of their kids. You know this.

It also means their relational system is unhealthy. They tend to not respect each other’s boundaries and rationalize their actions. I think this may have played a role in your wife’s thinking. So she may need to do some work with a counselor to reset her boundaries and break out of the enmeshment. I think you need to do the same. This also means that leaving her may not be a default decision. I do not agree with NOPkins that you should simply turn your back and move on. I don’t think he sees or understands the oriental perspective here.

Now about you… What is in your background that you have not shared? Why do you push so hard to prove yourself? Why are you so obsessed with success? Why do you cater to dangerous jobs and challenge fate? You know fully well this is akin to a death wish, which in turn comes from self hatred. Where does this originate in you? Who are you trying to live up to, to impress? For men, I think this is usually the father, trying to get acceptance and respect that father never gave. Give us some background on this.

[Stigmata]

Stigmata:
Can't you at least change your signature line to the O'Reilly's recorded call about the loofah/falafel?

Something...anything other than Pat O'Brien

Hairdog, who customizes his sig line for each occasion

Hair Dog,

Too funny. You crack me up

And how exactly did O'Reilly and O'Brien manage to have enough damage control to maintain their careers anyway?

Oh, wait a minute. I see now. O'Reilly & O'Brien.

Luck O' the Irish.

Damned lucky Irish. I kill myself...smirk.

*Sidebar*

O'Reilly. Conservative "do the right thing" type. Used to be nobody. Used to be Hard Copy correspondent. Has M and W. Gets $$. Gets power. As NOP would say, gets feeling of entitlement. Caught in attempted EA leading to PA.

Kobe Bryant. Entitlement example to the extreme. Whole life is #1. Willing to throw it and M all away on random PA.

Been reading "Break Free from the Affair." I feel old-fashioned for believing in fidelity? Why? . Becoming cynical. Author says 40 % of Fs and 60 % Ms engage in As...meaning that 80% of all Ms will be affected by As.

Ugh. Boy, I just killed any humor we had going at the beginning of this post, didn't I? Wah-wah-waaaaah.

At least changed tag for ya...;)

-Stigmata-

(who believes SSM Mboard should be changed to "The No Spin Zone")

Ah, that's better. Train back on the track...smirk.

[karen1]

Blackfoot,

Realize that as you get closer to Dday you will tend to focus much more on your own shortcomings and less on hers. By the time you get there you will have a very numb, surreal sort of feeling. At least that is how it was for me. BF, own YOUR stuff but don't own hers.

Karen

[chromosphere]

"Can hear Kyle McLachlin's voice in my head repeating it sometimes when I'm facing fear."

I always hear Jurgen Prochnow's voice saying "the sleeper must awaken."