Would you mind giving more detail on what you see regarding this mother–son relationship? What are you focusing on and why? What was the dynamic with your ex and how is that different now? How could your previous marriage have changed to break out of this role? Specifics would help.
I wasn't aware that there was a mother-son dynamic while I was married. But I was eventually aware that I felt more like a sister to him than a wife. My sexual feelings were stifled. I think some people can have this mother-son dynamic and not have it interfere with their intimate life, but I could not.
I found out after it was too late that my X was afraid of me. He had a very controlling, domineering mother and I think he turned me into her in his mind. I don't think anyone would say I was domineering. I let him do what he wanted when he wanted to do it and made almost no demands on him.
We never addressed our problems head on, even after I found out about his affair. We had a crummy therapist who wasn't much help. A good one probably could have saved us, with lots of hard work, because there was, and still is, a lot of love there. We both hated conflict and swept problems under the rug, never fought and looked outwardly like we had a great marriage. People were shocked when we separated!
Things that are different in my new relationship: he doesn't rescue me when I get upset. He asks to talk when anything goes wrong. We've had more discussions about little problems in the two years we've been involved than X and I did in 20 years. He approaches sex with more confidence.
I should also say that I was probably guilty of (unconsciously) assuming a parental/sisterly role as a way of avoiding my discomfort with expressing my sexual side. I seem to have largely gotten over that. Starting a relationship when you are older and more mature definitely gives you an advantage over your young and clueless self.
So often reading here, I've wanted to shout at the miserable HD spouses, "Sit your spouse down and calmly, without threats, spell out to him/her that you are miserable and that you cannot continue with things as they are. Believe me, I had NO idea my X felt that way, even though he felt he had told me many times. I wrote his complaints about lack of passion, initiation, etc as normal marital dissatisfaction. I had no idea it was a deal breaker. By the time he told me, it was too late -- his love had gone. You HD people might be surprised to find out that your LD spouses really do love you. So listen up, Cemar. TELL HER IN LURID DETAIL how unhappy you are. But say it calmly and strongly and with the intent of leaving if it doesn't change.
Quote: So often reading here, I've wanted to shout at the miserable HD spouses, "Sit your spouse down and calmly, without threats, spell out to him/her that you are miserable and that you cannot continue with things as they are. Believe me, I had NO idea my X felt that way, even though he felt he had told me many times. I wrote his complaints about lack of passion, initiation, etc as normal marital dissatisfaction. I had no idea it was a deal breaker. By the time he told me, it was too late -- his love had gone. You HD people might be surprised to find out that your LD spouses really do love you. So listen up, Cemar. TELL HER IN LURID DETAIL how unhappy you are. But say it calmly and strongly and with the intent of leaving if it doesn't change.
Mariposa,
Most of us have done this. Repeatedly. Sure, different words could have been used one time, or a better spin put on it the next time, but most of us long-time-celibate (or frustrated, semi-celibate) HDs on here have had MULTIPLE heart-to-heart's with the Spouse.
And it seems like only when we threaten to actually leave does anything get better, and even then, the changes are short-lived.
No, I don't do this CONTINUOUSLY, but I have had no less than a DOZEN of "The Talks" with the W over the years. What is the 13th one going to do that the first 12 didn't???
Mariposa, You have hit the nail on the head for me. My W does behave as if she is my Mother. She is strong willed, opinionated, critical and always gets her way and always has the last word on everything. A while back D17 observed that she never takes the blame for anything - I have never heard her say sorry. If she accidentally kicks you it's because you were in the way. I can't imagine her being HD with anyone though. I have tried talking straight with her many times but she just will not accept any rational conversation on the subject. She'll say something like "Stop giving me psychobabble" and gets angry. I have not told her of my formulating plans yet. I got back from Devon on Wednesday and looked into her eyes... and you know the rest. The ol'HD starts to rise etc. I have been keeping a distance though and tonight being Friday I am waiting to see if she will do or say anything. When I was newly married I assumed that she would gradually relax into it and was prepared to wait a while for her. Except nothing ever improved and the Mothering relationship took root. It's hard to see a way out of this. I suspect that Hairdog, GGB, Choc, ZBube, Cemar are all similarly mothered.
Quote: And it seems like only when we threaten to actually leave does anything get better, and even then, the changes are short-lived.......What is the 13th one going to do that the first 12 didn't???
Mariposa, this is common and all to true.
One twist to the above is a seperation before a spouse reached the point of leaving. Maybe some try for too long and then leave. Maybe some are early quitters.
Talking does not work for some people. Maybe the unhappy spouse does not know how to get the point across or the spouse that is about to leave does not hear the information as it was sent. We all have our filters that distort the message.
Too many people don't miss the water till the well runs dry.
And it seems like only when we threaten to actually leave does anything get better, and even then, the changes are short-lived.
I am currently in this position now and don’t want it to be another repeat of old behaviors after a few weeks. I am trying to see what I can do to not allow this cycle to re-occur. It obviously has as much to do with me as it does with her.
If you’ve been through this 12 times already, what are you doing that is the same and what does she say is the reason for her repeating her behavior?
SuperDave,
Your W sounds like my mother, who I have little doubt is a bonfide narcissist. Have you considered this about your W?
You said: "I suspect that Hairdog, GGB, Choc, ZBube, Cemar are all similarly mothered."
To this, I would say: Stop acting like her son. She can't be your mother if you refuse to be her son.
Unfortunately, she might not be able to relate to you in any other way. She needs to expand her repertoire of behaviors. (Sorry to say it, but she sounds like quite a horrible person to live with.) And so do you. You need to act like her husband, or at least somebody's husband. There may be no way out of this except out. I guess you're not supposed to say things like this on a bulletin board whose purpose is to save marriages. Sorry.
A friend I had not seen in a long time bumped into me and X at one of our kid's events. This friend told me later she was shocked at how the X still acts like a little boy around me. He is constantly looking to me for approval still. I do think that was the dynamic we had -- he wanted approval from me, endless amounts of it, because he did not get approval from himself. There is no way that approval from me could override the lack of approval he felt from himself.
I am so impressed when I see people like Honeypot and her H working through these issues. I think they take a very long time to work out. Each party has to be willing to change, and it sounds like a number of you have spouses who are not willing. Even when one is willing to change, it is very hard to do so. It takes time.
My new BF pushes back if I ever treat him in a motherly fashion. It is a totally different experience being with him.
SuperDave, if you have any intention of trying to save your marriage, I would tell her your plans, calmly and without anger: You are done being treated like a child, you want a sexual relationship and that you are preparing to leave. And then make those preparations.
Mariposa: I am very interested in your take on things. One of the themes that comes up repeatedly in my W and my MC sessions is the mother/child dynamic, which I think actually began as a professor/student dynamic. My W actually was a professor when I met her, but I was 12 years out of school. Still, I was a bit intimidated by her profession.
I'm definitely making progress on climbing out of this dynamic. She is having a tough time of it, however. Why am I suddenly not seeking approval from her? Where do I get off being so self-assured?
Superdave, I don't know if you read this post of mine a while back about the time my W said something nasty to me. I turned to her and said, "Why would you say that to me? How is it that you think it is okay to treat me with such disrespect?" I couple those words with a request to be dropped off at home (she was driving and we were on the way to the zoo for a fun day with out DD4). Well, she didn't drop me off, but after many minutes of silence, she tried to be chatty. We eventually ended up spending a nice day at the zoo, and she treated me decently for, oh, maybe a week.
She's back to being a crab sometimes, but now I keep my tools handy. The tools are: 1. "don't treat me with disrespect." 2. Stay out of HER sh!t. 3. Allowing her bad behavior gives her a reason not to respect me, so don't allow it. 4. If I give her information, and she reacts badly to it, that's HER deal, not mine. I am not responsible for how she reacts to what I say. She is. (This assumes that I don't tell her things with bad intent).
Anyway, I just wanted to say that I appreciate your viewpoint, Mariposa. Superdave: listen to this lady.
Where do you get off acting this way??? Because you are a grown man in an adult relationship and have come to believe that you deserve to be treated as such, not as some inept, bumbling, childish (fill in your favorite word) underling.
Your new way of behaving around your W is exactly what she and your marriage need, I think. You have let her treat you with extreme disrespect for a long time and she needs to be told to stop it. The best way to do that is just the way you are doing it, I think -- calmly, without anger, with a clear sense that you will not allow yourself to be treated this way.
My X and I never had this dynamic. We were almost always kind to each other. But still, his manner was one of approval-seeking and it was tiring to be around and also a big sexual turn-off.
I think many, many women get into this b@tchy, bossy, demanding mode and underneath it all wish the man would put his foot down. The more the man takes it, the crabbier it makes the woman and the less she respects him for taking it. The less manly he becomes in her eyes.
I remember your day out at the zoo hairdog and actually I am quite a nice person Mariposa. My W is a nice person too and we are actually very good friends in everyday life. I think that the Mothering problem has come about because she is very well organised and I am not so. She goes into great detail over everything and takes a long time to make decisions. If I make decisions she invariably finds fault with them to a point that is just wasn't worth me deciding anything much. Hence we became trapped in the bossy mother/ naughty son type of relationship. Anyhow... Friday night we had a long convo. It started because I decided not to initiate anything and see if she did (as last week I had suggested she might like to take the lead once in a while). She did nothing and just lay facing the other way going to sleep. A little cross, I asked if she was going to say goodnight or something and she just said she was trying to get to sleep. I reminded her it was Friday and after some frosty exchanges she said that she loves me but just doesn't fancy me any more. After some discussion she revealed that she stopped fancying me before we got married (this would be approximately 26 years ago!). I asked her why on earth she went through with it then and she said that she felt "Pressured" by me and my family and that things had gone too far (we had bought a house and she was living in it). She did not know anyone else in London and was frightened of being on her own and in anycase she liked me and love/sex just wasn't that important to her (we had actually given it up by then). Now I don't know if this is significant but when we first started seing each other as students she was on the pill and I thought she was hot. Inhibited but hot - at least willing anyhow. After six months she complained of feeling bloated and came off the pill and that was the end of our sex life. She was too inhibited to help with condoms or have any fun like that and we just fizzled out. She seemed to be a different person but ever the optimist I assumed I'd get her back eventually but sadly her spark had gone out. Incredibly on Saturday she had a brochure from the most expensive hotel in the area and was discussing with D17 us having a silver wedding party. I told her that she is in Cloud Cuckoo Land! SD - Living in the wrong bird's nest.
