I was really just journaling with my last post, but I do appreciate the responses.
NOP, Even if I had the, ahem, intestinal fortitude to throw W out, it just isn’t financially possible right now. We’re stretched to the limit. I will check out the Dobson book though. I’ve read several of his books and have found them to be very good.
GEL and Lori, I don’t want to blow off your replies with a short answer. I really appreciate your insights and they do add to the things I have percolating around in my mind, but the simple fact is that I can’t see any kind of split at this time. And yes GEL, I do believe that any split would be complete and permanent. I do believe that W’s family would cut me off. I do believe that if the kids took my side, they would be completely cut off as well. W’s younger brother was divorced and the oldest D went with his XW. I’ve seen firsthand how the XW and the D have been cut off and vilified. It’s not a theory – I’ve seen it in practice.
Lou, The overspending isn’t any worse than usual this year. I’ve managed to convince W that we simply can’t afford a $7000 toy. She’s only spending $300-400 per kid, so although it’s more than we can afford, it’s not so outrageous.
Cobra, I agree that I’ve been trying to keep too many balls in the air. But each and every one of those balls is precious to me – how do I decide which one I can let fall? It’s like one of those made-up scenarios where you have to let one of your kids die, but you have to choose which one. How can you do that?
And Corri and Lil, I don’t know what to say to either of you. I know that I may be wrong. I know I might be struggling with burdens that I would be much better off dropping. But for right now, that’s simply reality. I most graciously thank you for your moral support. Believe it or not, it really does help. I thank you both from the bottom of my heart.
ZB, Have you ever talked to your pastor about your situation? I think getting some spiritual advice may help un-burden you, if nothing else.
Also, what about suggesting that she go live in your other house? You already pay for it, why not put it to better use?
I guess what I'm saying is that, while you do not have to divorce her, neither do you have to LIVE with her and put up with her selfish behavior. I know that solution doesn't address the bottom part of your list, but I'm addressing the "We love Bube" aspect of your situation and encouraging you to continue to look for a solution that works for you.
I am beginning to think this whole situation has little to do with your wife and everything to do with you. Yeah, she is a mean, controlling narcissist and no one should have to take her crap, but you keep kow towing to her. I did not know you had divorced her but then came back. She has a right to be major P.O.’d about that. But what is a fair sentence to impose on you? Isn’t 10 years or more getting close to reasonable payment for your sin? She may not think so, but you do have a say in the matter.
And while Lil said you did call her bluff back then, the more I think about it, the more it looks like she called your bluff! From her perspective, maybe she is thinking that you don’t have the guts to follow through with anything. You tried it once and you failed. If you try it again, you’ll come back and then she can really put the screws to you. If you never get the courage to leave, she can still control you.
Your reply basically confirms this to me. I think you have something going on with your sense of obligation. I’ll try not to mention FOO (oops, just did it) but your arguments for not leaving are now sounding a little obsessive and a little like martyrdom to me. I’ll leave it to others to speculate whether this is true and why it exists.
It is not a personal failure to know your limits. It is a personal success to realize there is only so much you can do, and trying to do too much can cause you to fail at all of them. And I believe this is what you are doing. You are even failing at serving your God, though you think you are not. In fact, I could argue that by not taking any action, by not exercising your gift of free will, you are in concert with the devil and harming your own children. Worse yet, you are aware of this and try to deny it only for the sake of your principals and your own ego.
I am not trying to belittle you, but my point is that you have on some extremely tight blinders. You need to open yourself up to more possibilities that the strict dogma you picked up somewhere. It is one thing to hold to a higher moral ground as you suffer under a despot, but to cause your children to do so is crossing over into immorality. I think this is what everyone is seeing and trying to tell you. However your morality argument has effectively kept everyone at bay. To hell with morality when a child is being injured!
This matter is not about your wife. It is about you.
I haven’t talked to our pastor. I may do that, but as I said once before, the C I’m seeing is an ordained minister and has doctorates in both psychology and theology. As far as moving W to the other house, cross your fingers – I think I have the old house sold. I have a buyer and we’ve agreed on the terms. The only issue is getting them a loan. They didn’t go into any detail, but they apparently have some credit problems and don’t know if they can qualify for the loan.
Cobra – I think you’re way off base. There are more than likely some gems of truth in what you say, but overall, it’s wrong. I do put up with too much crap from her. No question there. But I am trying to change that. It’s hard to make a complete turn around, but I’m working on it and I am making progress. There has been a lot of progress on the animal front. I’ve demanded a reduction in the number of animals and that has happened. When I started the “MrsBube’s Animals” thread we had something like 13 dogs and 12 cats. We’re now down to 7 dogs and 3 cats. I told her that she wasn’t to bring any more home until ALL of the boarders, fosters, or whatever are gone. I have stuck to that and she has abided by my wishes. Last night she asked me if it would be OK to take back one of the dogs we placed several months ago. The new owner said that it just isn’t working out. It’s a small little terrier that’s profoundly deaf, so I didn’t reject that one out of hand. I told her I would think about it and let her know today.
Also, W is not punishing me for the A. I covered all of this in another thread, but it’s history. She may think she’s still holding it over my head, but I don’t believe she thinks that and I know that I certainly don’t feel it hanging over my head. It’s ancient history.
Quote: And while Lil said you did call her bluff back then, the more I think about it, the more it looks like she called your bluff! From her perspective, maybe she is thinking that you don’t have the guts to follow through with anything. You tried it once and you failed. If you try it again, you’ll come back and then she can really put the screws to you. If you never get the courage to leave, she can still control you.
I won’t pretend to know what W is actually thinking, but I can tell you that she has never said anything to indicate that she thinks along these lines. She said that she was convinced that I was gone. She said that she felt that I only came back because I continued seeing the C who was working to restore the M. And again, I may be deluding myself, but I honestly don’t think that W has any conscious thoughts of being controlling. I don’t think the thought of “putting the screws to me” ever enters her mind. I think this is just a natural part of her personality. She acts a certain way and gets a certain response, so a pattern develops. But I don’t think there’s a conscious thought of, “I want x, so I’ll do y to make sure I get it.” I may be completely wrong, but I don’t see this kind of malice or premeditation in her.
Quote: Your reply basically confirms this to me. I think you have something going on with your sense of obligation. I’ll try not to mention FOO (oops, just did it) but your arguments for not leaving are now sounding a little obsessive and a little like martyrdom to me.
I don’t agree at all. All things considered, I think I’m doing what I believe is best for myself, for my kids, and for W. It may not be what I would really like to do, and you may call that martyrdom if you wish, but I still see it as doing what I think is best for everybody involved.
Quote: It is not a personal failure to know your limits. It is a personal success to realize there is only so much you can do, and trying to do too much can cause you to fail at all of them. And I believe this is what you are doing. You are even failing at serving your God, though you think you are not. In fact, I could argue that by not taking any action, by not exercising your gift of free will, you are in concert with the devil and harming your own children. Worse yet, you are aware of this and try to deny it only for the sake of your principals and your own ego.
I agree; it’s not a failure to know your limits. But when did I ever say that? I do know my limits and I also know that they haven’t been reached yet. I also don’t see that I’m failing at the things I’m trying to do. Sure I’m something less than a smashing success at fixing my M, but who on the BB is? I also don’t believe that I’m harming my own children. They know their mother for what she is and they realize that I’m doing what I can to be a good father to them. In concert with my stepping back from doing so much animal stuff with W, I’ve been spending more time with the girls. I have good R’s with each of them. How is that failing? I don’t see that I’m failing God by remaining with W either. Earlier in the thread someone said that splitting wouldn’t end the girls’ pain, just change it. I agree. I don’t think that remaining in the M is in any way putting me in concert with the devil and harming my children. Maybe you should try explaining that one a bit more.
Quote: I am not trying to belittle you, but my point is that you have on some extremely tight blinders. You need to open yourself up to more possibilities that the strict dogma you picked up somewhere. It is one thing to hold to a higher moral ground as you suffer under a despot, but to cause your children to do so is crossing over into immorality. I think this is what everyone is seeing and trying to tell you. However your morality argument has effectively kept everyone at bay. To hell with morality when a child is being injured!
Again, I don’t see that my children would be any less harmed by ending the M. The C who has seen W for years, who knows me, and who has seen two of my girls, is in agreement with me. I don’t mean to belittle you either, but I put a little more weight on his opinion than I do on yours.
Ok. I understand everything you've said. I understand that you want to keep things as they are. So what's your point? What are you unhappy about? I guess I don't get it.
If you read what I said, I started it all out by saying that I was just journaling. My point is that I'm not happy, and I don't want to keep things the way they are. But I trust my C and he tells me that sitting tight is my best option at this point. I don't like it, but in over 15 years this guy (who knows all of the players) has NEVER steered me wrong. I just wanted to touch base and let everybody know what was going on and what I was feeling. Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the feedback and I did pick up a few things that I want to run by the C. But this guy has never steered me wrong and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream.
Hi Z-Bube I'm so glad you like your C. That is a long time to be seeing someone. Wow. Just wanted to add my support. It is so hard to live with a narcissist, I feel for you. And good for you for venting on the boards. Hope it helps you. There are no easy solutions for you or for anyone on this board. M is soooo hard. Somedays it feels like too hard, but we all get through to a new day. You will too. LFL
cobra, as I said earlier, it's hard not to read ZBubes thread and want to find him wherever he is and kidnap him and his kids and take them somewhere else to live.
I think we all went through what you did when we first read about his sitch-- I know I did... making suggestions, wanting to fix, etc. It's hard to see someone living at emotional subsistence level without wanting to do something. I guess most of us can identify with at least some part of his story.
I haven’t actually been seeing him for 15 years. I just started seeing him about 15 years ago. W and I went pretty steadily for a couple of years and over the intervening 13 years we’ve gone back several times for relatively short stints. In all cases, it’s been a mix of individual and couple sessions. We’ve also had the kids there a couple of times.
Cobra, Lil, et al,
I do know how you feel. I’m a fixer myself. If you remember the start of this thread, that was my big problem: the C basically said that this couldn’t be fixed. I just wasn’t prepared to hear that. I wasn’t prepared to accept it. When I revived the thread, what I wanted to say is that I’ve had time for the dust to settle, I’ve had time to do some reading about NPD, and I’ve pretty much resigned myself to the reality that this may very well not be fixable.
When I saw the C and got the bomb dropped on me, I told him that I needed some time to get used to the idea. I asked about what I should do, asked about what was best for my kids, etc. I covered the basics of what he said earlier – basically sit tight, work on your R with the kids, and shield them from their mother’s vitriol. He seemed to think that keeping the family intact was the best choice right now. He told me to call or email if I had any questions and rather than scheduling the next appointment, he told me to do that when I felt like I was ready.
This revival of the thread was me getting ready. It’s an admission that maybe it really isn’t fixable. It’s the first time I’ve ever said that I wanted out. It’s talking through my reasons for staying and reviewing the reasons the C gave me for staying. It’s examining the things he said to me and trying to figure out if he was really saying them or if he was just reflecting back what I’ve said. I absolutely believe that everything I listed was valid and correct for me for right now. But I also believe that I’m ready to go back to the C to discuss what happens next. I guess it’s time to call for that appointment.
