I do sympathize with the plight you are in. I also understand all of the reasons you listed...but for me (and only speaking for me here) the unknown is the scariest of all places. Right now it's very difficult for you to grasp the possibility of actually being happy if you leave, or ask your W to leave...whichever.
Failure....is led by pride. I'm oh-so familiar with that one too. I can certainly tell you that one of the reasons I am working soooooo very hard at this M is because I don't want to feel I've failed.....again (oh and I do love my H). But you know what? It's not failure if you try everything humanly possible, and you my friend have. You have given a heroic effort with the cards stacked against you. I'm not telling you what to do here, just pointing out you haven't failed at this M, you have worked harder at it than most people will ever work at anything. You haven't failed this M.
Now as for family, history etc. Why do you believe you'd be cut off from an entire half of the family? Do you truly believe they would cut you off? This doesn't always happen, and it doesn't have to happen if you have good relationships with these family members....especially for your girls sakes. Some of that, is up to each person.
Unfortunately sometimes we come to a crossroads in our lives where we are forced to choose between two unpleasant options, sometimes there's just not a "good" solution. I was once faced with one I thought I'd never get over (and I was harder on myself than anyone ever could be.) It involved a Bi-Polar xbf of mine that I was trying to disentangle myself from. He threatened to harm my family and I was forced to deal with him on my own. I was faced with staying where my family was (and facing the possible physical harm of one of them, because he was very unpredictable and quite serious about it) or coming back and facing him one on one....therefore ensuring no one else would be hurt. I knew if I came back to face him my father wouldn't understand, and he didn't (afterall he couldn't be there to protect his little girl)....in fact he didn't speak to me for over a year (I won't go into details). So I was faced with hurting my family on my own and knowing it would mean very hurt feelings and the possibility that my mom or dad would NEVER speak to me again...but hoping they'd eventually get past it, or facing the possibility of my xbf truly harming them physically to get back at me for leaving him (this was in my younger days).
I finally took the road on my own, and prayed my family would one day understand why I did what I did. Know what? They did eventually understand....we eventually became much closer for the whole ordeal as well after several years, and it made me a better person. But no one, and I mean no one....was harder on me for what I had to do to my family than I was. The hardest thing I EVER had to do was forgive myself for hurting my family, in order to protect them.
ZB, the way I see it...that is similar to the choice you have. If you leave...you will be protecting your girls, but at the same time you feel you will be hurting them and your W, and one day, maybe much sooner than you even realize....your daughters will understand, they love you ZB...and you love them that is soooo apparant. The thing that makes this sooo very difficult is you love your W too.
This time you have to choose what's in the best interest of you and your girls...either way it's not pleasant, but try not to be too hard on yourself.....ok?
I don't know that anything I had to say here helps...just trying to be supportive of you.
Z-Bube... your post was very moving. You have an old-fashioned nobility that is rare today. I mean that as the highest possible compliment. You know very clearly what you are doing and why you are doing it. I really respect that. Perhaps it is your karma to honor your values and to stick with this until the very end.
Maybe what you should do now (and perhaps some of us can help you kick around some ideas) is come up with strategies to make your next years as tolerable and even joyful as possible.
Have you read Victor Frankl ("Man's Search for Meaning")? I think you would find his works very helpful right now. When he was in a concentration camp he observed that some people were able to fashion a meaningful existence under totally impossible conditions. He wanted to figure out how people found meaning under very trying circumstances. I believe if you were to tell him your story and your reasoning, he would shake your hand and say "I understand. Well done."
I feel honored to know you... if only in cyberspace.
Re ZB --------- W is out overspending and seems pleased with life in general. ---------- How fair is that???
ZB, as you know this is a hot button issue for me. Two house payments, serious financial problems, Is Ms. ZB still looking at that $7,000 cycle for the family? Boy, am I seeing red and hot under the collar here in MT and the ground is white with the temp in the single digits.
You need a serious wake up call friend. Do you like problems? Is sympathy from posters better than having to declare bankrupsy?
I wish I could be Mr ZB for a week or month. Ms. (notice I don't call legal wives who are not emotional wives Mrs. Mrs. goes to women that are spiritually part of a marriage or women that are trying to keep the marriage going) would never get to see any credit cards, checks, or anything I put money in until the bills and outstanding debt was in check.
Harsh you say. I call being in debt like I think you are totally irresponsible. If you don't think I am right consider what Cobra has done with the family finances.
I like NOPkins post about separating.
ZB BTW, your reasons for not leaving, well some/most I think about the same way on some of the reasons for staying, but Ms. ZB has to do her part. You say you are married but I don't see Ms. ZB as being very married (team player). I thought it took two people to be committed to several common goals to be married to each other.
How about it (a Pets Mart Bro, yes BB got some of her pets there) ZB, If you know Ms. ZB has a NPD why are you helping her practice her addiction/her disorder????????
----------- I’ve tended to protect myself from those feelings by just mentally and emotionally checking out. ------------- I have checked out a couple of times. Scary to think about what the next level of checking out might be! Does that trip to Mexico sounds good about Jan 1 06?
No??? It might some day then what are you going to do? It is not going to get any better until you do something.
I was not going to post for the same reasons as you ZB. Same stuff, different day (SSDD) but your post hit one of my "last straws" buttons for me.
Write back soon ZB. I might sound hostile but I am not IRL. I see too many " walk all over me signs" in your post. Is that what you want to happen? Talk to me Pets Mart bro.
Lou just another working guy with common German and English great grand parents.
It's hard not to look at Zbubes sitch and think what would I do if I were in his shoes. It's hard not to look at his sitch and scream: "Get out, for God's sake man! Get out! You've served your time. Your kids are suffering! You've done your time!" In fact, I believe I've screamed those very words at him.
But Zbube has made it very clear repeatedly over and over time and time again that he is not getting out. He's not. He's not. He's not. He has his reasons, some good, some probably very bad and wrong-headed... but they're his reasons.
I have decided to support that decision, because I don't want him to be all alone in this.
As long as we keep questioning his decision, he has to keep defending it to us and to himself. Maybe if he no longer needs to defend his position to us, he may become unable to defend it to himself. Then other possibilities may present themselves.
You know I have to chime in here too. I was reluctant to reply to your post. The reasons you give for not leaving the R are very extensive. If most of those are constraints within which you need to find a solution, then you’ve got a real problem. I think you box yourself in too much. I know that I can never have the “ideal” outcome for myself and my kids. The best I can hope for is the lesser of several evils. I wonder if you have been trying to keep too many balls in the air, trying to hold to that “ideal” solution. If may not be possible, as you seem to be realizing. You may have to choose to throw out some of your limitations. (Personally I think religion is the easiest. More on this if you want, but be careful what you ask for.)
Generally I agree with what everyone is saying, but before getting too fatalistic, and not being that familiar with your history, can I ask if you’ve walked out on her before? I suspect the answer is no, since your religious beliefs keep you within so much of your limits. But if I can figure that out then I guarantee a narcissist can figure that out too. Do you think she knows this about you, and in that way can run rough shod over you? Your constraints sound like a golden opportunity for a narcissist.
If this theory is true, then you’ve never really called her bluff, and that is really all there is to a narcissist – bluff. So if you make a strong stand, let her believe you and your daughter are out of there (or rather, she is out of there) and you believe it yourself, there is a chance things could change. Just because she has so many of the symptoms of a narcissist does not mean she is a narcissist or is incurable. But until you have dropped the bomb (not just threatened to), you have probably not put up the force needed to call her bluff. As a narcissist, she needs you more than you need her. This is your strength.
Remember, this is only my theory, trying to find one more alternative for you. I hope it has some relevance.
My very REAL friend... oh god, does my heart go out to you.
I really have nothing to offer you in terms of advice, only a prayer. I think that you have all the straws piled on your back that one person can carry, and you do it with the very best of intentions.
So I pray for you that one day very soon, a very small, very tiny straw waifs its way down from heaven to settle on your already too heavy load... and that final straw will shatter all your carefully constructed beliefs and values, and finally, finally liberate your camel of a life from its burden.
Every person has their limit. God bless you until the day you hit yours. When you do, you understand that failure is sometimes one of the most profound blessings life can offer.
cobra, if I may chime in here, not only did Z leave his wife, he divorced her. And had an extremely happy and satisfying R with another woman (including great sex). But the guilt was too much for him and he went back to his wife who took him back but has never ceased punishing him. I don't remember how long since the D and remarriage, but it has been decades, I think. So, yes, he has called her bluff.
In my opinion, your C is right to advice you to get out; however, waiting till the kids are grown is not always wise. I waited 23 years. My boys were in college and and youngest was 11 (a girl) I would have waited until she was grown but I literally "cracked up" (treated for major depression - successfully for years - finally something snapped) I spent several weeks off of work and at my moms with my daughter trying to recover. It was during this time that I saw how strong she was. I watched her every day working with her horses and going on with her life. Thriving, even knowing her mom was sick and sad but not old enough to understand the details. After about 6 weeks of rest, psych drugs and therapy, I decided to get out of my toxic marriage. Wow was I supprised at what happended next.. My 11 year old daughter addapted very well. My grown sons freeked. It took almost a year for them to understand and accept that the marriage was over.
Don't kid yourself by thinking that the kids will deal with a D better after they are grown.
I believe more than most in sacrifising ones own happiness for the sake of your children, but I discovered almost too late that that sacrifise isn't really neccessary and may make things worse for you grown children.
Quote: "Get out, for God's sake man! Get out! You've served your time. Your kids are suffering! You've done your time!" In fact, I believe I've screamed those very words at him.
But Zbube has made it very clear repeatedly over and over time and time again that he is not getting out
I am not suggesting ZB get out, though the thought does have merits. In some ways I am like him.
I just want ZB to have less financial pressure. I read that he has payments on 2 houses and Ms. ZB wanted to spend another $7,000 for a quad cycle for the kids. ZB said something about almost being bankrupt. I just want him to have a place to live and where he can maintain a family in some comfort. If I were ZB I would ask myself, “do I want a house to live in, or do I want a quad cycle?
Maybe ZB is not in that tight of a $$$$ situation now. Maybe my 3 years in college with some people that lost jobs, got down-sized, had little income for several months, had to sell assets, caused me to think financial cushion, where is it for ZB.
I read another web site about men in mid-life-crisis, that sometimes walk out on the family because they feel burdened by the family’s irresponsible and selfish actions. I would rather not see ZB walk out completely. But none of this is for me to decide. It’s ZB’s choice. I am just suggesting Ms. ZB is loading more on to his plate than is fair.
Lil's
Quote: I have decided to support that decision, because I don't want him to be all alone in this.
I support ZB too because I know he won't leave but separate households is an option if "HE" chooses.
Quote: As long as we keep questioning his decision, he has to keep defending it to us and to himself.
ZB's decisions are his. All I want to is give support to ZB and encourage him not to be a doormat.
Lil, it is difficult for me to see ZB get what I call crumbs while others in the family enjoy cake.
