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#576816 11/16/05 01:27 PM
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Same to you, ZB! The ritual sacrificing of turkeys and sweet potatoes is almost here.

With the holiday season racing toward us, I feel like Tiny Tim, "God bless us every one."

MrsNOP -

#576817 11/16/05 01:55 PM
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Bube,
You'll be missed! Have a happy holiday.

Honey

#576818 11/16/05 03:39 PM
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Happy Turkey Day, ZeitgeistDude!

Choc.

#576819 11/16/05 04:22 PM
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Z-

Here's some advice from Jack Handy, author of "Deep Thoughts":

If you're at a Thanksgiving dinner, but you don't like the stuffing or the cranberry sauce or anything else, just pretend like you're eating it, but instead, put it all in your lap and form it into a big mushy ball. Then, later, when
you're out back having cigars with the boys, let out a big fake cough and throw the ball to the ground. Then say, "Boy, these are good cigars!"

Happy T day.

Hairdog

#576820 11/16/05 04:50 PM
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He he. My personal favorite "Jack Handy" was the disneyland one. Used to love that segment.


"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"

Inertia Creeps by Massive Attack
#576821 11/16/05 05:41 PM
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The best possible wishes to you ZB.

Lou

#576822 11/16/05 07:53 PM
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We'll miss you-- we love ya, dude!

#576823 11/16/05 07:58 PM
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Happy Turkey Day and remember to count your blessings!

Karen

#576824 12/06/05 08:37 PM
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I haven’t been posting much lately because I haven’t really had anything new to say. I also haven’t felt that anyone with the mess of a M that I have is in any position to be giving anyone else advice. In short, I’ve just been kind of depressed about my sitch. But it’s been a while, so I’m reviving my old thread here just to pass on an update. Or more accurately, just to touch base.

I’ve done quite a bit of reading about narcissistic personality disorder and while some of the things commonly listed don’t seem to apply to W’s behavior at all, I have to say that the majority of them are right on the money. There’s also almost universal agreement that the overwhelming majority of people with NPD never get over it. IOW, after getting over the remarks from the C and after reading up on it, I’m more convinced than ever that W suffers from NPD and probably won’t ever get better. In fact, the general consensus seems to be that NPD gets worse with age.

But now for what’s going on at home. As I’ve said, most of the time W is quite nice. She’s obsessed with her animals, but still quite nice. In the build-up towards Christmas, things have been going quite well. W is out overspending and seems pleased with life in general. She’s gotten wrapped up with her group in doing the Santa Claus pictures at PetSmart and is booked up every Saturday and Sunday until Christmas. She’s also signed up for a couple hours of Salvation Army bell ringing two or three days in that same timeframe. I’ve heard a couple of tirades about how worthless and unappreciative the girls are, but the girls weren’t even home at the time. So things have been pretty calm.

In line with that, I’ve mentioned in another thread that W has been more affectionate than usual and has even met me with some real kisses on three or four occasions when I’ve gotten home from work. No sex, but other than that, the R has been pretty good. At least on the surface. Below the surface, I’m in every bit as much turmoil as I was when I started this thread.

Most of the time my M is reasonably good. W and I have a lot in common in a lot of areas, so we really do get along pretty well together. Whether it’s good or bad isn’t the point here, but when a W storm blows up, I pretty much just retreat. I can feel the walls go up. I can feel myself switching off. Sometimes I get mad when she’s saying hateful things about the kids, but for the most part “numb” would probably be the best way to describe how I feel. So overall, I would say that ten percent of the time the R is really good, seventy percent of the time it ranges from tolerable to reasonably good, and the other twenty percent I’m just disconnected. I really hate W when she gets going on one of her bitch sessions, and I’ve tended to protect myself from those feelings by just mentally and emotionally checking out.

Since all of you are my real friends – and sad as it may be, probably my best friends – let me be blunt with you. The cold, hard truth is that I would really like to run for the hills. I’m not happy, my kids aren’t happy, and I don’t see much prospect of anything changing significantly in the future. I’ve known that for quite a while, but I just haven’t been able to bring myself to say it. I want out. But as you know, there are a number of things holding me back. In no particular order, they are:

Religion
I don’t know what else can be said about this that hasn’t already been covered. I believe that M is a lifetime commitment. I believe that God wants me to stay married to W. He never promises us happiness on Earth, but he does tell us to not to deal treacherously with the wife of our youth. Even if we split, I don’t believe that I would be free to remarry without committing adultery – which is not something I want to do.

Duty
This one is partly religious, but it’s also something bound up in my own sense of values. She’s my wife and I took her for better or for worse, etc. I made a commitment and gave my word. Honoring that commitment is important to me. It’s important to how I perceive myself. It’s not something that I can readily dismiss.

History
Two weeks from today will be our 30th anniversary. W and I have a lifetime together. I have little doubt that I could find another woman with whom I could be much happier than I am now, but I can’t imagine not having W. It would be like divorcing your sister. She has been and still is a big and important part of my life. I can’t imagine just turning my back on that. And make no mistake, if I were to end the M, all contact would end. There’s no way we could ever have an amicable parting of ways and no way that we could ever be civil with each other much less be friends. OK, she wouldn’t be civil – but the end result is the same.

Failure
I don’t want to fail at this. Maybe there’s no stigma to divorce any more. Maybe nobody looks at it as failing. Maybe, especially under these circumstances, getting out and saving myself and my kids is really the only way to succeed. I don’t know. All I know is that I can’t shake the feeling that giving up is just that – giving up. I don’t give up. Perseverance is my middle name. I don’t want to admit failure. I don’t want to admit defeat.

Familiarity
This one goes hand in hand with history, but it’s a little different. We’ve been together for 30 years. It may not be great, but it’s familiar and comfortable. It may be like staying in a miserable job just because you hate going out to look for another one. You know the ropes. You know how to get along. You know what’s expected and what you can get away with. And after writing that, maybe I should change “familiarity” to “inertia”.

Family
This one also goes along with history, but in 30 years there have been family ties created. Since I have absolutely no doubt that I, and possibly my kids if they sided with me, would be completely cut off from that entire side of the family, it would be more than just splitting with W. It would be losing over half of my family.

The girls
Say what you want, but I know my wife. The girls would have no choice but to choose sides. I have no doubt whom they would choose, but I don’t want to force them to make that choice. If they make that choice later and of their own volition, that’s different. I just don’t want to be the one forcing that decision on them.

Fear
Fear of the unknown. Fear of being alone. Fear of I don’t know what. But I am afraid. Maybe this is just the flip side of familiarity, but it wouldn’t be honest to not admit that I’m afraid of what would happen.

Love
Last, but not least. In spite of everything, I do still love W very much. That just reinforces all of the other ones. It might be easier to convince myself to disavow my commitment to W if I didn’t still love her. If might be easier to put aside the 30 years of common history if I didn’t still love her. But I do. I love her dearly.

I’m sure I could come up with more, but this is getting long enough. The point is that I’ve put a lot of thought into all of this and even though getting out seems to be the best choice, I just don’t see how I can do that and have any inner peace at all. I guess I’m stewing in the classic Snarchian crucible – forced to decide between two unacceptable alternatives.

Z-Bube

#576825 12/06/05 08:50 PM
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Hi, Z.

Didn't God divorce Israel at one point in time?

In any case, consider a separation. You set her up in an apartment, she leaves, but has visitation rights. You stay in the house, take care of the kids and finances. She goes to work to pay her half of everything (if she doesn't already work, I don't remember). Just to be clear - YOU DO NOT LEAVE, she does.

That is a separation for a time, not a divorce.

If you haven't read it, I would highly recommend "Love Must Be Tough" by Dr. James Dobson.

Just remember, the only bad thing she does more than once to you or the kids, is what you allow her to do.

All the best,
-NOPkins-


I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.

-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.
-An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
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