And I don't give guys hugs very often . I don't know what to say at all. Having a dim prognosis for things ever improving must take the wind right out of your sails. I can see where it would be hard leaving, but on the other hand, is it any less hard staying? Do the things that will help you and enjoy your girls while they are still home.
Z-Bube... As a child of parents who would fight constantly, I used to fantasize all the time about them divorcing in order to have some happiness. ( I think Lil said this as well). And there were happy times, for sure, but they were so overshadowed by that black cloud of animosity. The reason I am saying this to you now is that I don't want you to feel guilty if you have to rearrrange your living conditions in some way. I do believe that with crisis comes the opportunity for change, so don't be afraid to shake things up...I disagree with the C's assessment to keep the peace...get in there and defend those girls ( and yourself) with all you got...and GEL is right, find some time for enjoyable things.
You don't deserve to suffer this way. If you were a murderer, you'd be showing yourself more mercy than this. You've paid your debt to her. Sometimes the definition of character is admitting when the path you chose is no longer the best one for everyone for whom you have responsibility. To hold yourself to a higher standard than the rest of the world is held to is not a virtue.
I predict that years from now, you'll look back and regret a thousand times that you did not physically separate from your wife and keep your daughters with you. Not for yourself-- but for them.
Let me ask you this: if one of your children were in your position exactly and came to you for advice, what would you tell them to do? And what if there were grandchildren involved?
Please keep seeing this C. You need someone to open up to besides all of your loving (very loving) cyber-friends.
There is a lot of pain around her lately. It frustrates me to no end that I am incapable of helping. I think of you guys as friends. So in a way this place is good for me, it teaches me to just be there.
I was mistaken when I said cobras sitch was the most heart wrenching.
I remembered PIP later on. and now you ZB. there is no most.
I wish I could give you a brotherly hug, and take off for a long ride together.
Meet me in El Paso with a GS 1150 adventure ,(video options, altiplano bolivia.) and we will ride down thru central and south america, to the tip of chile. (one of my 'things to do' still remaining....)
I second Lils comments you are still toting your bag of rocks ZB. I understand, and respect your need to do it.
Good luck with the certs..... I remember all the cramming I did for my 'dream job'....
Quote: Blackie, I can’t/won’t put here out. She’s a 48 year old, lifelong SAHM and has no means of supporting herself.
ZB, I am not trying to change your mind but everyone has an ability to support himself or herself with some help. She has another 18+? years to go to full social security benefits. She could learn something is less than a year or two.
When I had my second back injury and advise to quit my auto mechanic work, BB was eligible for many programs. I went with her to the YWCA, while she was taking aptitude tests and being interviewed/counseled, so was I. Batter women's shelters (not that your W is battered) see SAHM all of the time.
In short order, BB was in a nursing program and I was at college. The YWCA did not do that much for us per say, they just got us in contact with other agencies that could help.
BB and I both saw women that were convinced "they couldn't" change to "well, I did it." "It was not easy but here I am." I [am] , going to be OK." People with Developmental and physical disabilities work. Mrs ZB can too. I saw people who did not want to work but I never saw anyone who couldn't work. And that includes guys in wheel chairs with almost no arm strength.
About the SAHM thing, I think that is part of your W's problem. She might benefit and improve her social skills if she is forced to interact properly with more people that she has less freedom to abuse without consequences that might affect her negatively. (The dog thing does not count because volunteer jobs/people put up with a lot of crap. What are they gona do, dock her pay?) She knows you won't fire her but maybe her employer will and that might shape her up a little.
At least working will make family members less of a target (time wise). I believe in "work is therapy." Working and getting a paycheck builds selfesteem, BTDT. Look at you going for the carrot and all of the work in getting certified (if I am correct about the certification in blackfoot's post) SAHM's going to work is not a stick motivation thing in my books. It can be a carrot thing for your W to improve herself. Check it out with your C. Maybe I am off here but I have seen not working be a problem. BTW, Mrs ZB is working, just not getting paid doing the dog thing, if I remember correctly.
Quote: Karen, I think you described W perfectly when you said, “unable to form a marital bond.” I’ve always wondered how the Catholic Church could grant annulments to people who had been married for years and had several children, but I’m beginning to see it.
I often wondered about the Catholic form of divorce. Karen1 & ZB, Thanks for saying it this way.
Do what you can ZB. I can see you leaving when the last one leaves so if you want keep from totally checking out one day, at least consider some of the options put out to you.
What would your W do if you totally checked out and she never learned to work. Would having to go to work “cold turkey” be better or worse than gradually learning a job while being physically and emotionally supported. My major in college was how to help people get back to work and how to support people who never worked.
SAHM go back to work every day. I even did some foot work for a “Back to Work Agency” that processed a few SAHM divorce cases. If you died, Mrs ZB would most likely go back to work. What is the difference between working part time now, while she has your support, and no support if you would have died or just bugged out and gone on that ride with Blackfoot. I know divorce is out, just think about what I posted.
Now my real reason to post. Sorry to hear about your situation and guy hugs to you (((((ZB))))).
Quote: About the SAHM thing, I think that is part of your W's problem. She might benefit and improve her social skills if she is forced to interact properly with more people that she has less freedom to abuse without consequences that might affect her negatively.
Brilliant post, Lou! You are really GOOD in the middle of the night, aren't you?
ZB, I meant to say earlier... wishing for a heart attack is a very bad sign, kwim? Do you see why this is so bad? Imagining that your own near destruction is what it will take to change things... you seem to see your leaving as MORE destructive than your death. Very skewed thinking (not meant to be critical, but meant to say what a state of crisis you are in. IOW you're not "handling" this as well as you think.) Besides, your h.a., even (alas) death probably would not change anything in the family dynamics.
Hey ZB, can't say much except I really feel for you. I'll try to send some positive vibes your way this weekend, hoping it has enough fun in it to distract you from your situation.
Keep posting here man. Keep us updated. We all care about you (if you couldn't already tell). Find or make a place inside yourself that can't be touched by the hell around you. I did that and it was the only thing that kept me going during my deep depression.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Quote: You are really GOOD in the middle of the night
3:17 AM my time when I finished ZB's post, Lil. I think I did a post to cobra around 4AM. Sounds crazy to stay up that late but I keep doing it. One way to avoid some feelings.
About tha advice. I have seen it happen several times and heard the excuses/reasons for not doing it. I was around it off and on for 3 years. When push comes to shove, people that say they can't do something are really saying they are afraid to try or using it as a crutch to hang on to something. It's done every day.
I was also thinking along the same lines as what Lou said. My wife just completed alternative certification as an elementary teacher. She now has a new career and is working full time. It was a lot of work for her to do this, but she was a SAHM, and our youngest child is only 8. I would think your wife has a lot of time on her hands, in fact way too much. Getting out of the house can only be good for her.
I am also wondering something, so don’t take it wrong. I don’t know you well, but one of my first impressions is that you are the care taker in the family. Nothing wrong with that, in light of your wife. But I feel your excuses for her not being able to support herself just don’t make sense. Lou explained that well. My question is why do YOU feel that way? What do you get out of having her stay at home, and taking care of her? What security do you received from having her dependent on you?
This may not be the appropriate time to ask these questions. I am sorry for your grief and you problems. But look on the bright side. She is not leaving and you are not kicking her out. Nothing has changed except a new perspective within you. You have lost hope. Your fantasy has evaporated and you do not know what the future has in store. In reality, is this any different from last week, or last month, or last year? She is probably the same difficult person now that she was back then.
She has not changed at all. Only your perception of yourself has changed. I think the fantasy you had was a wall you built up to keep from feeling sorry for yourself. The wall has crumbled. Nothing else changed. You now feel sorry for yourself. Wishing for a heart attack speaks to this. Such self pity is not healthy (I should know). Look inside and see why this is so. I could do it, to some extent. So can you.
I don’t believe you can change a narcissist. But since you will not part from her and you really shouldn’t keep living with her abuse, then maybe you can make things a little better. I doubt it but you never know. Maybe this realization (assuming there is any substance to what I am saying) could help shift the balance in your house in some way. Everyone here says that can happen, but don’t take it from me.
Just my thoughts, and I hope it can help somehow. Stay strong,
My late husband's first wife was also a SAHM for almost 30 years. When he left her (they were both age 50), she didn't really need the money as he gave her just about everything (and her mom had money), but she got a clerical type job-- she had no skills, not even rudimentary computer skills (this was almost 20 years ago). She is a very hard worker, extremely reliable, meticulous, and organized. She has moved up in the organization, and soon will be there 20 years.
. I don't know what to say at all. Having a dim prognosis for things ever improving must take the wind right out of your sails. I can see where it would be hard leaving, but on the other hand, is it any less hard staying? Do the things that will help you and enjoy your girls while they are still home. 
You are really GOOD in the middle of the night, aren't you? 
