I understand that only PhDs are qualified to diagnose personality disorders like narcissism, so I assume the guy is qualified and should know what he is talking about. So since she is a certified narcissist, I think you are completely fooling yourself if you think this woman will EVER change. Having her read a crate full of books won’t do it either. Zbube, I agree with Blackfoot that you MUST throw her out. You should not have any problem in court. You can get custody of your daughter and should be able to keep the house. She will have to pay you child support, assuming she works.
If you keep your daughter in this situation, then in my eyes you are culpable. I think the law may see it that way too. You MUST go see a lawyer.
Not only should you get your 14 year old into counseling, but you should get the others to go too, including the oldest. Don’t give them the option, tell them they must do so. The initial few visits have to do more with overcoming the shame and coming to terms with their mother’s condition, but it will get easier for them.
Everyone’s been giving me a lot of grief lately, even you. I am trying to work through my sh*t. It all comes from having a narcissistic mother. You kids are already “infected” but you won’t see the symptoms until later in life, after they get married. At that point it is damn hard to clean yourself out. You need to read up on this.
Quote: Does she seem to have even a slightly accurate picture of her own personality? Does she admit to any character flaws? For example, does she admit to having a serious temper problem? Or does she just think she occasionally flies off the handle but it's no big deal?
W does recognize that she has a problem with anger, but it’s the only problem she acknowledges and even then, she doesn’t seem to grasp the magnitude of it. In her mind the problem lies somewhere in between the two extremes you mentioned. She thinks that she occasionally flies off the handle and she recognizes that she can act inappropriately when she does. She admits that she can and should handle it better, but she still feels justified and doesn’t think it’s that big a deal.
And I don’t think I ever said that I though it was good for the kids to stay with her. As they’ve gotten older and less dependent on her, they’ve pretty well separated their lives from her. Other than sleeping under the same roof, they pretty much avoid her. One D is gone to college, another one will be next year, and the youngest one is unbelievably good at making herself scarce. Since I can’t/won’t leave W and since we can’t afford any other arrangements, I think they’re doing the best they can under the circumstances. Like I said, I soak up the vast majority of the vitriol and shield them from it. They know what their mother is like and they just do their best to avoid her.
Blackie, I can’t/won’t put here out. She’s a 48 year old, lifelong SAHM and has no means of supporting herself. In our present sitch, I can’t afford to support two households. Heck, I can barely support one. But even so, I simply can’t throw her out. It’s part religious, part personality, and part I-don’t-know-what, but I can’t. My feelings of being responsible for W played a big part in my coming back to her after the D. You (that’s a generic you directed at everybody on the BB) can argue all you want, you can point out a host of fallacies in my thinking, you can tell me I’m wrong, …, but it doesn’t make any difference. I can’t/won’t do it.
Quote: I understand and respect your beliefs on staying in a marriage. Given that I don't know what your religion is... have you talked to your pastor/minister/priest about the sitch? Or is this a view you hold as your own and it wouldn't matter what your religious leader said to you?
Corri, no I haven’t talked to my pastor. But my C has two doctorates; in addition to the doctorate in a psychology, he’s also an ordained minister with a doctorate in theology. In any case, my own beliefs in this area are pretty strong. It would take some convincing to change them.
Quote: I know as a kid in an abusive situation, I used to pray nightly that one of my parents would rescue me. It really killed me when I found out that my mother had a suspicion that something was amiss and she didn't do anything about it. DO NOT BE WEAK WITH THIS WOMAN. If not for yourself, then for your kids.
Regardless of what you do personally with your wife, I do hope that you become a solid brick wall between your W and your kids, no holds barred, zero tolerance. They need you.
All I can say here is that I’m doing my absolute deal-level best. The physical abuse stopped years ago, so they’re not in any physical danger. I’ve avoided saying bad things about W, but I have talked to each of the girls and they understand that their mother isn’t normal. I’ve made a point of being there for them, going to band contests and concerts, supporting their drill team stuff, and going to football practice and matches. (Yes, I know it’s soccer over here, but I just can’t get used to that). I’ve also made special effort to spend father-daughter time with them, both individually and collectively. I’m doing everything I can to counteract W’s venom and I’m doing my best to be that brick wall.
Quo, Stigmata, Chrissy, SD, et al,
In all honesty, I do truly believe that at this point in time, what the C suggested is the best option. I think SD said it best.
Quote: Teenage fantasies of parents splitting are a bit romanticized and can't compare with the reality of a split. I'm sure the kids are miserable in a lot of ways, but that doesn't make them unique. A split would change the flavor of that misery, but not cure it. I do think it's critical to have an adult validating their reality, confirming that their mother's behavior is not healthy or acceptable.
For now, I’m just going to have to go with that. I’m just having a hard time coming to terms with the idea that the sitch will probably never change. I’ve been so energized by what I’ve read and what I’ve seen on this BB, that I’ve just known that if I could change myself and change the way I interact with W, that it would change the sitch. It’s hard to accept that nothing I can do will make any difference. In fact, I haven’t accepted it. I guess that was what I was looking for when I started this thread. I was looking for some assurance that I do still have some power to change things. I felt so hopeless when I left the C that I was just looking for some hope to grab onto.
Sorry, this was so long. Let me chew on what you’ve said for a while and I might have more.
ZB, Since physical separation is out, why not an in-house separation?
Tell her, in no uncertain terms, that you are DONE trying to have a relationship with her. Move into another bedroom. Have as little contact with her as you can. When the kids are grown, request that she get a job so that you can separate finances. Find ways to deal with your own loneliness that do not involve her.
If she is truly as awful as you are painting her out to be (with the backup of multiple counselors) then I see no point in continuing to enable her behavior by giving her a loving husband to use for her own purposes, when it suits her.
And I could not agree with Corri more. True, the physical abuse situation might not be an issue since they are big now, but the verbal abuse is most certainly ongoing and is every bit as damaging. Separating yourself from her, as much as possible under the same roof, will send the message to your kids that it's okay to dissociate from her. They must be awfully confused kids, trying to honor a mother who basically uses them.
Will you always live under the same roof as her? I'm thinking that a physical separation once the kids are gone might be a good idea.
Too bad.
Awfully sorry for you, ZB. Must have been hard to hear that put so bluntly in the counselor's office.
Big, manly hugs to you, Zbube. This really sucks, doesn't it? My first W is narcissistic/borderline personality disorder. I remember reading about the diagnosis in the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), and, under "prognosis" it basically said that any chance of insight or "recovery" was poor, short of "long term, inpatient mental care." Sheesh.... Of course, after reading that, I kept on hearing:
Quote: They're coming to take me away, HA HA They're coming to take me away, HO HO HEE HEE HA HA To the funny farm Where life is beautiful all the time And I'll be happy to see Those nice, young men In their clean, white coats And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa!
But I digress.
Although I fully understand where BF and crew are coming from, I also appreciate SD's opinion on just . And I get your position, too.
And, just because I want to be the first to say it, yes, I'm aware that the current Ms.Hdog is also somewhat narcissistic. Do I marry them, or do I create them?
Again, I digress.
All I can tell you, my friend, is that I think you're a good and patient man. All you can do, is all you can do.
Wow, that must have been really hard for you to hear from someone you really respected. My heart goes out to you on this. Also I don't believe I remember you mentioning (and you probably did) her explosive anger or that you've had to restrain her to protect your children before.....that's really not good.
I think this is the time when you need to separate the "ideals" you have from "reality". Idealistically....you'd like you and your W & family to be able to coexist under the same roof happily right, preferrably as a loving family right? Realistically....is that going to happen....ever? Are you and your W going to be able to coexist in the same household knowing what you now know? For years? Also, what about daughter who is living in the house full-time for a few more years.? The verbal assaults that are doled out to you...or her are very damaging. They are every bit as damaging as physical abuse.
I understand you have reasons for not seeking a "D", I may not agree with them...but I'll respect them. So what about Honeypots suggestion of an in-house separation. Make it a roommate situation if you truly cannot bring yourself to oust her from the home. If you were to physically separate from her (under the same roof) it might become easier for you to draw & maintain boundaries. No longer play that "husband" role to her. Would it be impossible for you to draw up legal-separation papers? Afterall, that's not all the way to "D", but it also allows you some freedom in your life....or would you view that the same as "D"?
Now I'm not trying to say what you should/shouldn't do...just trying to help you keep it in perspective. Sometimes what we'd like to have happen...isn't always what should happen.
I understand your dilemma and hope you can find a livable solution. I am trying to do the same. One other thought regarding:
My feelings of being responsible for W played a big part in my coming back to her after the D.
Just be sure this is all you and not a manipulation of you by her. After all, she is a narcissist and the master at manipulation. You can’t hold a candle to her in this arena, plus you won’t even know when she’s doing it to you. Just be aware.
I can't add much except to say - BIG HUGS! My x-H was also narscisstic/borderline PD along with Bipolar II. These are firmly entrenched. Ex-H still displays all of these tendencies to this day. Z-bube, only you can decide whether to stay or go, to divorce or separate, legally or physically or whatever makes sense in your sitch. All I can say, is that I DO understand. I was in that M for 10 years. Later, when I decided to seek an anulment through the Catholic church I came to accept that H didn't come into the M with to tools to have a M. He wasn't able to form a marital bond. It is probably similar with your W. Finally, do what you have to in order to keep your children safe AND yourself sane. It is of paramount importance that you take care of yourself in order to take care of the kids.
First of all, thanks to all of you for the support and the cyber-hugs. I’m not usually given to such things, but I was sitting here in my cube with tears streaming down my face as I was reading this last round of replies. Luckily, with vacations and a big chunk of training vouchers from Microsoft that are about to expire, I’m the only one in my group that in the office today. It’s nice to able to avoid embarrassing questions.
HP, except for swapping in-bedroom for in-house, your post almost exactly mirrors what the C told me. I don’t have a spare bedroom, so I’m staying in the one we share, but we’re only sleeping the same bed. We don’t even go to bed or get up at the same time. The C also made the same comment about enabling her behavior. He told me to continue to disengage. He said that doing so would probably put me more in the line of fire, but he said that it might also divert a little from the girls. Probably not, since she seems to have an endless supply of vitriol, but maybe.
We also talked about escape fantasies and how things were going to change over the next few years. He said that D17 leaving the house would markedly change the dynamic. For one thing, W will have one less target. C told me that has both good and bad aspects: it’s bad in that the fire is more concentrated, but good in that I will then have only one asset to protect. He told me that it would become doubly important to foster a good R with D14. We talked some about when D14 leaves too. He seems to think that I’ll leave when the last D does. When I told him that I wouldn’t, he just gave me one of those looks that says, “we’ll see.” He said that one day I would get on my motorcycle and ride away. And keep going.
HD and others, I spent some time this morning reading up on NPD and sadly, most of what I read perfectly describes W. It wasn’t a hard diagnosis. It closely approximates the feelings I had when I started reading TSSM – it could have been written by me. To make things worse, everything I read pretty much echoed the statement that the prognosis isn’t good.
GEL, your post made me think of something else that happened this week, something that I related to the C. I don’t know if any of you out there in SSM-land ever watch “7th Heaven”, but my kids never miss it and for a number of years I used to sit and watch it with them. A couple years ago, the husband/father had a heart attack. There was a running theme for a while after that when everybody in the family hid everything from him and acted like everything was wonderful and there were no problems with or between any of them. He knew he was being kept in the dark and hated being kept in the dark, but the rest of the family was following doctor’s orders not to stress him out. Well on the way home from the NHS fiasco on Monday night, I was actually sitting in the van wishing I would have a heart attack and thinking that maybe it would wake them all up and everybody would just get along. I related this to the C just to illustrate that things were so bad at home that I had actually been wishing for a heart attack. The C said some of the same things you said. Of course he knew that I didn’t really want to have a heart attack, and he told me that it wouldn’t have worked anyway. Then he said almost exactly what you did:
Quote: Idealistically....you'd like you and your W & family to be able to coexist under the same roof happily right, preferrably as a loving family right? Realistically....is that going to happen....ever?
Cobra, you’re undeniably on target with the manipulation, but it was me, not her. W, at least apparently, had given up on me coming back. She was in righteous indignation mode. She was noble and moral and innocent and had been wronged by a worthless, whore-mongering scumbag. She made no effort to try to get me back and even told the C that she didn’t want me back. But then again, she’s a master and that could well have been manipulation.
And finally, Karen, I think you described W perfectly when you said, “unable to form a marital bond.” I’ve always wondered how the Catholic Church could grant annulments to people who had been married for years and had several children, but I’m beginning to see it. I know that I’ve been married, but I’m not sure that W ever has. And it’s incredibly painful to say that. In fact, I’m crying at my desk again. I need a break from this…
You have an awful lot on your plate to digest right now. Take some time out for you (and perhaps your girls too). If at all possible plan some things for this coming weekend that'll get you (and your girls) out of the house....go do something you know will be fun, enjoy yourself and blow off some steam. Heck take the girls ice-skating or bowling....or even cycling (if the weather is decent enough)....just get out and go have some fun!!!
I'm sending you lots of hugs and positive thoughts!!
