You're building up a small issue, tying in larger things that to me seem less related. Your issues with Andy aren't your issues with your kids. And whether you celebrate Christmas with your XH and the girls is separate from whether you have Rs with any of them.
I think you need one safe person with whom to talk and process your experience. Whether its your former life coach or a new therapist, this depressive funk seems to be worsening for you, Hon. You're too bright a woman to be thinking in this all-or-none fashion, so that suggests dep. I liked Ellie's idea about meds. Please consider taking them, for a short round at least, ~ 6 mo, to help you to dig out of this hole. I have taken them in the past for the same reason, relying on my cognitive-behavioral changes to keep me moving in a positive direction while weaning off them after several months. I'd ask your doc to consider a newer med that addresses both serotonin and norepinephrine.
I know this may be an argument against your depressive thoughts rather than me dealing with my everyday JO, but IMHO, it is not possible to severe a mother-child bond (or a father-child bond). You may feel separate, and have fewer thoughts/bonds about or with them, but Jo, they will experience a screaming, gaping wound of the absence of your love - for as long as you stay away, up to a lifetime of this pain. Sure, it'll numb a bit over time, but it will flavor all of their Rs with other human beings. For that reason, act slowly and in a well-thought-out manner.
The saying goes, "A loving mother loves herself." So if you need to stay away and not let the a$$hole manipulate you into something you're not prepared for, than stay away for Christmas. My view is that this may be your emotional side telling your cognitive side that it needs to be taken care of and fed. Don't ignore that. Seek counseling and meds, and douse yourself in self-love. Only then will you feel less depressed and more able to love others, in particular your girls.
In the long run, you will be teaching them a very wise lesson - that to love another, one has to love one's self first. Attend rather than ignore your messages to yourself in the moment, and like any great DBer, plan for the longterm future by setting up goals for yourself to get out of this funk.
I am so sorry if you think anyone on this BB has insulted you. You are in a devilishly difficult situation, no doubt about it, and painful too. I can feel your pain coming out at me through the computer screen.
Just want to point out one thing before I go on, your kids are just that - kids. Of course they want you there for Christmas, don't expect them to be mature enough to understand your POV. They are not adults to understand your point of view in this yet. They just want their MUM.
But Andy is a big boy, and if can't see that having both you and OW or her daughter around at Christmas is not appropriate, then he has a lot of growing up to do.
Jo, I really hesitate to say this, because there are some here who will probably accuse me of seeing everyone's WAS as a narcissist (not so), but this is what Andy screams at me. He appears to be an absolutely self-centred person, who hasn't grown up at all, and has no idea of empathy. Arrogant, devious, says whatever works for him at that particular moment and then "can't remember" saying it later, a user, and on and on. He has you just where he wants you. Waiting on his every crumb. He loves controlling the situation. And you.
Have you looked up stuff about Narcissistic Personality Disorder? If not, here are some links -
The Web of Narcissism (members only, say where you heard about the site and mention Livnlearn if you want)
(((Jo))) I agree with Gabe. Your girls have no idea how the thought of being with your entire family depresses you. They are not being selfish, they are kids.
I know that Andy is a jerk but is it at all possible that you can work out a way to have your Ds at your house to celebrate the holiday without him? Even if you have to do it the following weekend? Most divorced people "do not" celebrate the holidays together and you shouldn't have to either. Set up a time when you can see the girls without him for your celebration and gift giving.
Another thing is that you have to stop reacting when he pressures you in front of the girls. Just say, calmly, "we'll talk about this at another time" and drop it. He manipulates you because you allow it. Don't ever let the girls see you losing control of yourself in front of them. This just gives him more ammunition/justification for being the custodial parent.
Please do see about the antidepressants.
We all love you here, Jo. Wish there was more we could do to help.
Of course I've got depression. I've felt it coming back for weeks, maybe a few months even.
I can't go on anti-D's as I react to all of them. I was on 4 different kinds of anti-D and I reacted to all of them. First I was on amitriptiline and that sedated me so I was not able to get out of bed all day - not visable when you have a baby.
Then I was on Lustral and I reacted so badly to that that I was hospitalised (altered consciousness, uncontrollable shaking, seeing double, etc etc).
They stablized me and changed my meds to Seroxat, but that sedated me also and gave me severe vomiting - every day I would take one, I would be vomiting.
They told me to take it in the evening so it would sedate me overnight instead of during the day, but I just used to wake up feeling drugged and hungover.
I took myself off it but was addicted so I had to go through 2 days of blinding headaches and sickness in 'cold turkey'.
On my very bad days I have ocassionally dipped into my old supply, but it means being sick for 2 days if I do. I suppose that's a distraction if nothing else. Too ill to feel anything.
So that's why I can't have anti-D's.
Counselling is an option. I know there is a counselling service at the local community centre. I could book that, but still not convinced my records wouldn't be used.
I know the kids will yearn for a mother their whole life, but is it me they're yearning for or just an idea? I don't know them, they don't know me. They come round here, I think they've had fun, then their father phones up saying that DD1 has been complaining about me, and I end up in tears thinking, 'whatever I do, she doesn't like me.'
She even does it in front of me. She'll tell me something her father has done that she knows I don't like and then he'll try to excuse himself - it's almost like she's trying to make us argue. When she's not doing that, it's the opposite, match making.
Some days she even REFUSES to visit me. He'll bring the others round and she won't come in. I feel so rejected when she does that. After all, I didn't ASK him to leave me and I didn't want him to take them. It just happened.
Then there's DD2 screaming her lungs out, hitting me, saying she doesn't want to stay with me.
And DD3 - everytime I see her, she says 'when we lived together' this and 'when we lived together' that, and 'when you and daddy were fighting over me' etc etc. She was taken from me, and she remembers it and talks about it incessantly. It hurts like hell that I can't spend time with her without her bringing up the past.
It's hard enough dealing with his mind games, trying to deal with theirs as well is too much.
My mind tells me they are kids, they don't know. My heart hurts just the same as if they were adults.
It doesn't help that I can't remember much of when they were living with me - it was years ago, and the court stuff was so traumatic that when I try to remember myself as their mother, I can't remember anything except the court hearings.
I remember them being born, I remember birthdays and holidays and stuff but not day to day mundaneness - not real life.
I know if your wife was talking like this about S6 you'd want to shoot her.
Honestly, what is more harmful, no mother or a mother that never stops crying? Because theres a part of me that thinks they'd be better off without me.
And the court must have thought so too because they still gave him custody, even after the domestic violence after he left, even when they had police reports to prove it, he still got them. He got them because he wasn't crying like me.
Don't you ever feel like something is so damaged you can't do anything to fix it, that even trying just a bit would be a waste of time. That's why I'm so panicked over Christmas. To me it's just another effort that won't work, and I am out of strength.
I read your post, cried, and then he knocked on the door at the same time and I had to answer the door with tears running down my face. Great. That'll do the DB'ing a lot of good. Thankfully the light was off so he didn't notice. He just said 'I can't stop because I'm going to a party.' Lovely. I didn't say anything, let DD4 in and shut the door.
Tomorrow we are going to a Christmas market for the day, and either on Monday or Wednesday, my friend is coming over with a bottle of wine to celebrate my book being in print.
I could technically arrange Christmas in an order so that 1 year I got the kids, next year he did etc. Only on 'his' year, I wouldn't even have DD4 if I did that, and I know I would never cope with Christmas completely alone. So I never ask for them over Christmas to enable me to keep DD4 with me and 'survive' the season.
We usually go on holiday to escape it but this year my holiday ends on the 19th so Christmas is an issue.
I too think it isn't fair to expect divorced people to have Christmas together, especially in our volatile sitch, but Andy's parents divorced and they still spent every Christmas together. I remember Christmases as a child where I would be at Andy's house and both of his parents were sitting round the table for the Christmas dinner even though they were divorced.
They did the same for birthdays, special ocassions, doctor visits. It was so friendly between them, that his mother's new husband used to go round to his fathers house to mow his lawn for him.
So Andy just thinks that divorced people are supposed to be together over Christmas because that is his normality.
My parents never did that and I think it's crazy, but his whole family always do that. All the ex's are always invited to everything. MIL still wanted me to go round there to start with, until it went wrong several times and I then stopped accepting invitations.
I don't know what's wrong with him. His father was an alcoholic and had that split personality disorder (can't spell it). I sometimes wonder if that is hereditory.
I do know that he seems to LOVE mind games.
Sometimes I wish he'd hit me and then at least people would see the bruises. This way he's bruising me the same but nobody knows.
And no, I'm not insulted, I just feel like a dreg at the bottom of a barrel, being non-custodial. It's alright for men because people expect that, but for a mother to be without her kids, well, it's so taboo no one even talks about it.
Every time a thought or argument pops into your head that explains why you can't take care of yourself, assume its your depression talking and press forward with the self-care. Whether its why you shouldn't visit a good friend, or explore counseling or meds.
Nows the time to try s/t different. Cause what's in place isn't working for you.
Where's Ellie when we need her? Some of the meds you mentioned are a bit dated, with better ones out there now. Newer meds come out every year with a different effect and different side effects. One might match your physio and needs better than the ones you've tried so far. For example, Amitriptyline is an older anti-dep in the category of a tricyclic and the newer meds that target serotonin (SSRIs) don't tend to have as many side effects. Talk to your doc about an SSRI or a new med like Effexor that targets both serotonin and norepinephrine. Taking them at night is a good idea for some, as is starting with lower doses, so that you don't have the fogginess. If you try them, stay with your doc and don't discontinue prematurely. Let the experiment play out and communicate with your doc about any difficulties.
I know kids are challenging. But this is so like dep to paint experiences in a neg fashion. My XW did talk about S6 in that fashion when she went into her dep funks. I didn't feel like throttling her - I felt so sad for her, as she couldn't see and enjoy the marvelous little infant and boy that I did - all b/c her world was painted in shades of dark gray due to her low mood state. I always wished relief and happiness for her, and was desparate to have her helped. But ultimately it is up to the person to accept and use adequate help. At first, she chose the D, alcohol, and purchasing things as her way to treat her mood. But now she's in therapy and is trying to change her behavior (exercise etc...). I think she still needs meds, as 2 months into this change, she still tells me that she feels depressed and 'burned out' about life.
Quote: theres a part of me that thinks they'd be better off without me.
Never! There is no one on this planet who can replace their mother. No one whose smile, touch, gaze, affirmation, means as much to those beautiful girls. You are their gold. No one will ever come close. They were blessed with you as their mother, and no distance/court order/ spousal abuse/ or choice will ever severe their hearts from yours. Be gentle with their hearts, Jo. And with your own.
But this sense of overwhelm maybe you telling yourself that you need to take breaks (like maybe from the Christmas visit) to self-care until you're back to being your full, happy self, Jo.
The amitriptiline wasn't for depression - it's a treatment for VS. In small doses it numbs the vagina and the vestibular tissue so I was on it after being diagnosed in 1996. It worked from the point of view that it numbed me so completely that I couldn't feel sex whatsoever and thus enabled us to at least do it. Not very satisfying but better than none.
Then I had DD1 but I was sleeping ALL THE TIME on it, even though it was low dose, and with a baby to take care of and Andy out at university all day I came off it.
The other meds were for depression.
But as they said, it was reactional depression and that's difficult to treat.
I am happy when he's not here. It's as simple as that. I just need to get him out of my life.
I know people say don't react, but to me, if he wasn't there I wouldn't have to worry about whether I react or not. I just want my own life, without him messing me around.
I see I have missed what has been a long day for you. I feel your pain, Dawn causes me the same anxiety that Andy causes you. I have been on Paxil for 10 yrs. I fell into a deep depression after she had an affair with one of my employees. I quit a good paying job (50K plus bonus in 1994) because of the affair. I had a new car, the van was paid money in stocks a 401k etc. Now my personal belongings could fit in two 19" tv boxes.
The emotional rollercoaster has never stopped since. If I didn't have children with her then I could start over much easier. She is unmedicated, un-C-ed bipolar, which makes life hell for everyone around her. My plan is to keep working on myself so that she can't keep me in this web, somehow Jo we have to stop their control over us.
I want to run too. But I have put 4yrs into this business and I think I going to turn the corner, not only save the business but become much more profitable this year.
I am going to say no to Dawn, I am going to try not to get angry when I do it and live my life how I want to. I was worried about her taking me to court, this and that, well thats going to stop. Maybe some how we can gain the strength to not let them put us under pressure.
Christmas she will invite me, unless she falls madly in love again before then. Of course I want a family to be together, but we are D and all it does is mess with my mind. This BS friendship thing, sometimes once every three months I am her "sex slave", once a yr for about two weeks she wants to be in love with me. Jo I for one don't want this anymore. I think I would not need Paxil if I didn't have to deal with her.
You know a move away from him might help, he couldn't use you so easily and you would see him less. What about a move that is temporary for now but if you like it could turn permanent. He might realize what he is messing up and straighten out, but I have my doubts. Dawn and Andy are really the sick and confused ones, but they think they are ok, don't need C, etc.
JO, YOU ARE AN AWESOME WOMEN!!! YOU HAVE A BRIGHTER FUTURE.
Well, moving away has been something I have considered doing in this whole 4 years and I always stay because of DD4 and the other kids, but I'm never truly happy and the idea of moving away keeps coming back.
I can't get rid of the idea, so now my logic is telling me that my heart must be right. That IS what I need, what my heart tells me I need in order to survive and have a good life.
I don't have a clue HOW to move away, I've got nowhere to go, but I'm sure I will figure out a way.
Some of the meds you mentioned are a bit dated, with better ones out there now. Newer meds come out every year with a different effect and different side effects. One might match your physio and needs better than the ones you've tried so far. For example, Amitriptyline is an older anti-dep in the category of a tricyclic and the newer meds that target serotonin (SSRIs) don't tend to have as many side effects. Talk to your doc about an SSRI or a new med like Effexor that targets both serotonin and norepinephrine. Taking them at night is a good idea for some, as is starting with lower doses, so that you don't have the fogginess. If you try them, stay with your doc and don't discontinue prematurely. Let the experiment play out and communicate with your doc about any difficulties.