I tend to view this the way you do. I'm not sure I'm able to completely separate my H from our R.
I am trying to focus on our R, but the fact is...what's lacking in our R for me is something I need my H to do. It's behaviors of his that have changed.
Maybe that is our shared problem in our Rs. Others here seem to more clearly see how to separate the R from the S. This is turning out to be a very useful discussion for me.
Oh, on a lighter note, I'm getting a real kick out of hearing people call me Chrom. I think I've finally found the strong screen name. I can just hear Arnold yelling "Crom" as he smashes the bad guys in the Conan movies, or looks on in amazement at the size of the monster he is going to have to fight. So I am a god of war and destruction now, as well as an expression of surprise or anger.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I'm about half-way to a chrome-dome. Ironically, my wife likes bald, so I don't mind if the hair just hurries up and gets lost so I don't have to worry about cutting it every month or so.
The only bad thing about my receding hair-line is I'm developing that little island of hair right in the front middle. I'm thinking of letting that grow out, spiking it with a lot of hair spray and dyeing it white. I'll be Chromo-unicorn.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Actually I think of the shiney silver Chrome.....like in Trace Adkins song "Chrome" (sorry for those out there who don't like country music LOL)
I don't necessarily feel I have a problem separating my H from our R ... but in our R because his behavior has changed, specifically since we married it is in many ways up to him now to bring back what he used to provide. I can't make him do this, don't want to make him do this. All I can do is tell him what I need out of our R.
I think for the most part I work very hard at not so much focusing on HIM per-say, but trying to communicate to him what I need in our R to feel fulfilled. Hey I'm not perfect though...there are times I just want to bash him upside the head and go "Ya big dummy don't you get it yet!!!" Naturally I don't say this LOL
GEL Well, I live in the South, but don't listen to much country music. I'll have to go on ITunes and check it out.
"I can't make him do this, don't want to make him do this."
To me this is a very powerful statement, and a principle that I am struggling with. I am still having a hard time "dropping the rope" as you all say. But also, I don't want to make my W change, as then it becomes false in a way.
Of course, you can look at someone "doing something just to please you" in two ways, as false or as a genuine attempt to make you happy.
Hope that makes sense. I'm trying to get some research work done while responding to convos here. I'm also itching to post more on my thoughts thread. Us guys are in general horrible multi-taskers compared to women.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
This is actually something we've addressed before (prior to you joining in on our BB).
I choose to view my H making attempts as an expression of his love for me, not as a false gesture. This is something I know people do struggle with. There are many people out there who feel that if their H or W ML to them on a "schedule" then they are doing it because they have to. Well perhaps that's true, but assuming that's why the LD spouse is doing it is wrong in my book. For me....I conciously choose to accept the mere fact that my H shows up on those nights (or did anyway) and makes the effort as a true sign that he is doing this out of love for me.....because he wants to make me happy. There is nothing wrong with someone doing something for you in an attempt to make you happy. We all do things in order to make other people happy....because we care for them.
Now it becomes different for me when my H shows up that night, and makes mechanical attempts....with absolutely no intimacy involved....or lays there and has me do everything....now that, I don't need....and no longer accept as an effort.
So now all I can do is tell him what I need clearly & specifically, it's up to him to do it or not. If he chooses to do it, great! Our M will recover and we'll be better than ever....if he chooses not to, well then he's chosen that path as well. I have placed the course of our M in his hands, and have stated so to him.
Dropping that rope is not an easy thing to do, but at some point I do believe it becomes necessary.
I think you and I are in agreement. The best would be for our S to have some inner desire to do what we want/need. Next of course would be them doing it out of love. But, as you say, just doing it in an attempt to check off a list or mollify us temporarily is wholly unsatisfying.
The question then becomes, how do we know. When your S is a closed book (as yours and mine are), how do we really know what the base intention is? Some may say that it doesn't matter, that our happiness comes from inside ourselves and shouldn't depend on our S or anyone else. That may be right, but I have a hard time with that. Gotta work on it.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
For me...when my H makes an "honest" attempt at doing something...even if it's just to make me happy, I can tell the difference...there's effort put into it. When he's just showing up because he thinks he has to....I can also tell the difference, that's when things become mechanical and he makes no real attempt to get into what he's doing.
I don't question what my H's intentions are at the actual time he's doing things. I go off of the feeling "I" have at the time, or shortly thereafter...and that is often based off of his actions (or lack thereof).
Many people are correct that happiness does come from within ourselves...I mean, I do choose to view my H's attempts as his attempts to show me he loves me afterall....I don't concentrate on what his motive is behind the attempt....or assume he's doing it just because of xyz. Really, it doesn't matter to me "why" he does it....what matters to me is the effort he actually puts into it.
What works....or worked for me in the past is to really concentrate on some of those things that you know your W already does that shows her love for you. What is the LL that she already does speak? For me, my H is an Acts of Service guy.....so it's the things he's constantly doing around the house, or the attempts to buy me things he thinks I want. Now, Acts of Service is not by any means my LL, it's his totally. But I've learned to recognize that when he does certain things he's showing his love for me...in his way. I try to validate that and recognize it (recognizing it sometimes takes a bit of work).
It's up to me to communicate to him how to effectively speak my Love Language...so that means I have to clearly communicate specific things that he can do and then agree to recognize his efforts when he does these things. I have even given him a list of things that he can do that I will recognize and explained he doesn't have to do all of these things all of the time, but any (or all) of the things I've listed are things that I will automatically read from him as being loved/wanted/desired...whatever.
I need to run for now...I'll try to post more in a bit.
Quote: I guess my question would be, how do you separate the person from the R. Isn't a person's behavior in large part who that person is?
Yes. However, the person more than likely doesn't know what they want and need, nor do they have the courage to own it... they say one thing, but do another. They say that creating a happy marriage is important to them, but their actions belie their statement. OR... the two of you have never agreed on what a 'happy marriage' means to the both of you.
Quote: If you love/accept the person but not the R, what are you in fact loving/accepting about that person? Their ideas/words? Non-R behavior?
Are you saying, then, that you can only love a person if they act and behave exactly as you expect?
Quote: And what if the problem in the R is sex/intimacy/affection, but the LD person considers their LD to be an integral part of who they are?
Then you have a problem which BOTH of you must objectively consider. Is this a negotiable or non-negotiable item? The only way you will know is if you are very clear on what you want and need, and you have the courage to own it.
For example.
HD: I want sexual intimacy to be an integral part of my relationship. For me, that means x, y, z.
LD: Sexual intimacy is not important to me, nor do I want to participate in a relationship which demands this of me.
Okay, so now we have something to consider. If they LD is unwilling to budge on their goal (or BOUNDARY), then you now have a decision to make. You decide if your boundary is in fact a boundary or a statement of preference (boundary being something YOU WILL NOT NEGOTIATE. PERIOD.) If it is a statement of preference, and you want to keep your marriage, then I'd focus on accepting what you cannot change.
If this is in fact a BOUNDARY for you, it is up to you and you alone to defend that boundary. Decide what you can do to meet your needs within your own moral framework and then say to your spouse:
Okay. You don't want to have sex. I respect that. I don't want to have sex with someone who is unwilling.
However, having sexual intimacy in my life is something I am unwilling to give up. It is an integral part of who I am (and you better make sure it is). Here are our choices. You can work with me to establish sexual intimacy with me, which you have said you will not do, so that's out. I can give up my sexaul needs, which I won't do, so that's out. I can seek fulfillment outside our marriage, or we can agree to end our marriage.
LD: I am not the one with the problem. I will not end my marriage over sex. If sex is more important to you than me, and you need to get out, then YOU end it.
And now you have a very big decision to make.
First and foremost understand that this is not about staying in the marriage or getting out over sex. It is about you standing up for who and what you are. It has nothing to do with whether or not you love the other person, or whether or not they love you. It's about... whether or not you love and respect yourself.
If having sexual intimacy is an integral part of who you are, don't apologize for it, don't feel ashamed about it... it's who you are!! If you are willing to change that for the sake of your marriage, and that is a decision you are making for YOU... great, do it, stop b!tching and change.
If it isn't, why in God's name would you ever give up who and what you are for anyone? It makes you dishonest, it makes you angry, resentful and all around miserable... but the only person who is to blame is YOU... because you are the one unwilling to stand up for YOU. Rather than face your fear of standing up for yourself... you try to get the other person to change so you don't have to make tough choices and proclaim to one and all: this is Who and What I Am.
If you cannot love and respect yourself, how can your spouse?
HD: Okay, then I'm getting out.
LD: You would tear our marriage apart over sex?
HD: No I would not tear our marriage apart over sex. I will tear our marriage apart because I have every right as you do to be Who and What I am, and I cannot do that in our marriage.
In all instances here, the problem is not with the person(s), it is with an unresolvable issue within the marriage. You may not like the choices you face, and all your choices may seem very undesirable, but in the end, what you will be left with is how you define yourself. Once you know that, only then can you make a choice, plot a course, and take action.
Corri
P.S. Being Who You Are typcially involves many boundaries. It requires a deep and thorough understanding of self. If you really don't know who and what that is, I'd start there.
