Thanks for that, that's exactly what I am trying to do. In the past I would have felt the need to validate every little attempt on his part, now I simply don't. I guess you could say he's lost me to a degree....and he's going to have to work a whole helluva lot harder to win me back.
I thought it was clarified at that time, he had even repeated back what he "understood" me to say at that time, however over the past several months he seems to have edited his understanding down to just that portion of what I said....and focused on that as a reason not to step up.
I know you are very experienced in this sort of thing, and I don’t mean to imply his misunderstanding has anything to do with you. He should try to proactively confirm that his understanding is what you meant. But if he thinks he already understands, then why ask? The fact that over time he has mutated a prior understanding into something different may be an opening for you to better understand him, and why he does that. I would think that if he is sincere in working on he R, then he would change this, but since he hasn’t, maybe he is not aware of it and needs some help?
That type of attitude from my W would have helped me, rather than being accused of purposely twisting things around. (I’m not saying you do this.)
To clarify what I said previously. It wasn't me who asked him initially to repeat back to me what his understanding was of what I said several months ago....that was something our MC asked him to do, to make sure we were communicating clearly...and to help avoid misunderstandings.
Last night...I didn't ask what his understanding was, he was asking me if I remembered what "I" had said....and when I told him that she had asked a similar question several times of us...I wasn't sure which time he was referring to....that's when he told me his current understanding of what I said.
Initially, in our MC's office...I think he was merely parroting back to me what I said....even though our MC did ask for him to try to put things in his own terms. Personally, I believe that once that session was over he picked my statement apart a bit, and began focusing on that one portion of it.
I agree that he may not be aware of what he was doing...which is why I did take the opportunity to clarify again last night...and put the comment back into context. However, I cannot continuously make sure he understands and that his understandings do not mutate (not saying you said I should do this). It would be up to him to continue checking to make sure his understanding is clear...I cannot make him do this.
I've been thinking about you and this situation with your H. I'm just talking out loud here because I don't know if what I am going to say has any merit, or if you and your H already understand this between the two of you.
This notion of "acceptance," or, "can you accept me exactly as I am," seems, to me, to present a real catch-22 to both parties. Let's take it from an HD perspective.
LD: Can't you accept me exactly as I am? (Translation: why do you not consider me lovable just as I am?)
Quandry: If the HD says yes, then it is as if they are letting their hopes for a better R with this person go... and they are metophorically screwed.
If they HD says no, they feel like a judgmental ogre, for the LD then feels like they are flawed somehow, and that doesn't get the HD any closer to the R goal.
Not to mention that the HD has not even asked yet if the LD can accept them exactly as they are.
What's my point. I think it critical for both parties to understand the very subtle yet important difference in accepting a person exactly as they are... and accepting a relationship exactly as it is, and then being able to communicate in those terms.
Can you see this, or am I just full of it?
Meaning, the person is not the problem. The relationship is the problem. You are free to love and adore the person exactly as they are... the relationship is the enemey, in a manner of speaking.
So if you said to your H... 'yes, honey, I can accept you exactly as you are, and I will love and adore you to the day I die for the person you are. What I cannot live with indefinitely is this relationship. It is not what I want and need from an intimate relationship. <Explain what you want and need>. If that isn't what you want and need, that doesn't make you a bad or flawed person. It just means that we have different R goals and we need to stop torturing one another."
Am I rambling here? Attack the R, not the person. Yes, you can both agree you want a happy marriage, but what does that mean, exactly?
For example, I know Cobra handed his wife a list of things he wanted for his R, but from her reaction to it, I can see where all she could see/feel was everything she was going to have to do/change in order to meet his 'demands.' They aren't demands, it's just want he wants. There is nothing to personalize there. Perhaps one of the reasons she cannot see it that way is because she does not really feel from him that he accepts her exactly as she is.
See what I mean? Once the two of you really understand and feel accepted and loved by the other, you can look at the R with a new set of eyes... objectively.
"You are not the problem. Our relationship is the problem. You are perfect exactly as you are. I want a, b, c. You want c, d, e." We agree on c. Is that enough to keep us together?
You have to have the courage to own and state what it is you want and need from a relationship, without expecting the other person to deliver it. And they have to have the courage to own and state what it is they want and need from a relationship without expecting you to deliver it.
The 'delivery' part is at the sole descretion of the other partner. There are no 'buts' to this... allow them to state what they are willing to deliver for you in the context of fulfilling their OWN goals, wants, needs... and THEN you can decide if/how/when you can or cannot deliver for them.
Get clear on your own goals and your own wants and needs, and THEN decide how to proceed.
You may see that is time to get out. You may see that you can truly make it... but your acceptance and lovability will no longer be the issue.
Hmmm. Well. Perhaps I'm spewing here... but. Well. Maybe I'm not saying it clearly.
Quote: This notion of "acceptance," or, "can you accept me exactly as I am," seems, to me, to present a real catch-22 to both parties. Let's take it from an HD perspective.
LD: Can't you accept me exactly as I am? (Translation: why do you not consider me lovable just as I am?)...
Corri
Here's another way that conversation can play out:
L: Why do I have to change? Why can't you just accept me for who I am?
H: I don't want to change you. I just want you to make love with me.
Then follow this up by singing the chorus to "I Love You Just The Way You Are" by Billy Joel.
This keeps thing focused on behavior instead of identity. It also puts the ball in the other person's court. Maybe the LD person really has deep issues that he needs to explore, or a physiological problem that needs to be fixed. On the other hand, it might be something as simple as making a different choice at that particular moment.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
This sounds a lot like the phrase you hear a lot "hate the sin but love the sinner." A good principle, but hard to follow (I see a lot of hating the sinner going on).
I guess my question would be, how do you separate the person from the R. Isn't a person's behavior in large part who that person is? If you love/accept the person but not the R, what are you in fact loving/accepting about that person? Their ideas/words? Non-R behavior?
And what if the problem in the R is sex/intimacy/affection, but the LD person considers their LD to be an integral part of who they are?
Not disputing what you are saying, it makes a LOT of sense to me. I'm just trying to organize it in my head. Thanks for listening.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
karen, your thread was locked so I didn't get a chance to thank you for your gracious response to my lame problem following your long reply to blackfoot. You shouldn't have to rearrange your format for me... but thanks! I do enjoy your posts.
Corri & GEL, I can't remember if I posted this before, but it seems to fit in here. This is from the David Deida book "It's a Guy Thing":
Quote: How can I leave him when I still love him?
What you feel and what you should do aren’t necessarily the same; it is possible to love a man totally yet walk away from him. If the relationship is not appropriate, you can remain in love and still bring a relationship to an end. Your love, your heart, and your connection to God can be full and true, even while you are acting in this difficult circumstance.
Your head is your center of thinking, your heart is your center of emotional feeling, and your belly is your center of action. Your belly, just below your navel, is the place from which your action springs, your center of gravity. In Japanese culture it is called the Hara, and in Chinese the T’an-Tien. By relaxing into your navel area you learn to center yourself in dance and martial arts. This navel area is your center of power—the power to do.
Your heart may be flowing with feeling for a man, but your navel doesn’t have to follow that flow. You are free to act decisively and choose to leave a man even though you have strong feelings for him. You don’t have to shut down your feelings in order to turn your navel and move in another direction. It’s okay to love a man yet decide not to be in intimate relationship with him. It’s okay to turn from a man that you love and open yourself in love with someone else who will be a better partner for you.
Women are usually more moved by their feeling center than their action center, so it is difficult for them to walk away from a man they love. Most men are the opposite. They listen to their feelings very little. They are usually more involved with doing and thinking than with emotions. It is usually easier for men to walk away form a relationship.
As a woman, your balance is to remain in your feeling but act in accordance with your highest good, your deepest wisdom. Listen to your close circle of trusted friends. They usually can reflect what is best for you. Feel deep in your heart. Ask your highest self for guidance. Even though you love a man, it may be best to actively turn away from him, even as you continue to feel love for him.
How long should I wait for him to change?
This is a key to deciding whether a man is right for you. As he is right now, can you fully trust him? Or do you think that you could change him to a man you could trust? As soon as you find yourself thinking that you could change him, you are in trouble.
If a man is not already living a life that you would wed to yours, then do not commit in relationship, hoping he will change. It is fine to desire change and growth in a relationship, but you must trust him, as he is right now, in order to provide a foundation for growth in relationship and a basis for the practice of love. If you do not trust him as he is now, you don’t really have an intimate relationship.
So choose a man you can trust. Serve him in his growth so you can continue trusting him. But if you really don’t trust him as he is, then he will feel it. If you are waiting for him to change before you can trust him, you are locking yourself into a no-win situation.
Trust is the starting point of the practice of intimacy, not something to hope for in the future. In any case, if you find yourself staying in a relationship because you think your man might change, you are making a mistake.
Good post, corri. Framing things differently helps me understand problems better.
I actually told my W once that I would love her forever, but that I couldn't say whether I would/could stay married to her forever. She didn't like that. Maybe I needed to frame it more like you did, but I still suspect that she would see the "I'll love you forever, but I won't stay in a sexless marriage forever" as a cop-out, or mere semantics. But, of course, her view of a situation/problem/statement is something over which I have no control.
