Nice, Dave, nice. Its good to hear that things are going well with you. I have gone down very similar pathways myself. I find that the work one has to do in the marriage (sex-related or otherwise) is continuous. Insecurities that I might have had 18 months ago STILL sometimes surface at inopportune times, and I have to apply self-soothing techniques. I am hearing the same thing from you, and that is comforting. I think this will get easier with time – we have ingrained ways of thinking and it takes time to work through those issues and bury those insecurities.
I agree that the SSM situation is a great way to fix other problems in the marriage. In trying to ‘fix’ the SSM, I learnt tools and methods that have helped me in every other aspect of my marriage and life. ‘Let your marriage work on you’…a wise man once said!
My H recently asked me what I wanted for my upcoming 35th birthday. I told him I would like to go see U2 in concert. He expressed some disgruntlement – it was a weeknight, he is not a big fan of concerts, what about the kids etc. I worked through it in my head and told him that it was a request, it is what I would really want for MY gift, and would be disappointed if we couldn’t do it, but there was nothing else attached to the outcome. I meant it too. He amazed me with how quickly he entered that crucible and emerged from it announcing that I was a difficult girl, but I was HIS difficult girl, so if I made babysitting arrangements, he would buy us tickets. I thanked him, he hugged me. So…we have tickets (that he went to a lot of trouble to find and paid some insane amount of money for!) and are both looking forward to the concert.
I didn’t make the mistake of assuming that he would be as enthusiastic about it as me. I didn’t pout and attack after his initial ‘rejection.’ He didn’t withhold and get passive aggressive. Wait, am I talking about sex after all?
Lemme ask you a couple questions..things that I didn't understand. Firstly, what did you mean by becoming more like you and less like her? In what ways were you like her?
I somehow absorbed her individual system and made decisions based on my perception of her desires. We all do this...we make decisions based on assumptions we have about our spouse. We don't initiate because we assume they will say no. Worse is when we get angry with someone for not making the assumption and my W was guilty of that too. She would say "Now what makes you think, after all these years of knowing me, that I would want to (fill in the blank)?". Let's say this was in response to me saying..."gee, you are looking good...I'd love to take you to a vacant parking lot and have some fun". I permanently corrected her behavior by responding "So rather than be pleased over the fact that I'm finding you attractive right now, you would rather get mad at me for not reading your mind? I'm just telling you what I want to do...what's the problem with that?". Quit assuming and deciding for your spouse...tell them what you want. Defend it if you have to and correct any attempts they make to bring you back into their system. Anyone, your spouse, kids, friends etc. who get irritated that you don't "know them well enough to...." is simply not strong enough to stand up for themselves....therefore, they depend on others to compensate for them. If you play into that, you are "fusing" yourself into a shared system that's hard to break. Remember, you are allowed to express any desire, any time you want. If ML is something you want, then by all means...say so. If it's met with a bad reaction, then ask "why is the thought of me wanting you not taken as a compliment or a nice thing...is it because you have a real big problem saying no all the time?" (note, that quote is more to provoke thought than actually use. Polish it up if you want to use it.)
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I'm 100% responsible for the sex "I get".
Now keep repeating this.
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I gulped and realized that I could have done this a couple years ago and now would be terrified.
Why reprocess the present in the past and have a "bad feeling" (terrified) when you are in a nice warm bed with a H who is telling you that you would look good doing xxxx? Of the thousands of dollars in therapy, I didn't get this point until I went to a goofy little meditation class run by some Buddhists. Their whole point was to learn to control what thoughts you allow into your head and if you can't, then change the way you perceive them. Again, it's learning to live exactly in the moment. Don't cloud a situation with the fact that your H has been a big dud for years. This is really hard to do and I nearly did it the other night before she corrected me. Amazingly, the other morning I grinded up against her...and we actually did it in the morning...which she once said she would never do. I didn't even ask. It's that whole thing about keeping a cool head and staying in the moment.
Quote: I also came to the lightning fast conclusion that this is MY doing. My problem and the solution lies within me.
True.
Quote: I....became even less attractive to him.
How do you know? Did he tell you? I bet if I asked him, he'd say you are very attractive. You associate his desire for you with your attractiveness. This might be something so deeply entrenched in the female psyche that it can never be fixed...but it's wrong. When you have a thought like that, acknowledge it with "this is stinkin' thinkin'". Accept the fact that he is what he is...but only at this specific point in time. Forget his past and don't make negative predictions about the future based upon his past (a quote from C #4).
Your desire to have him pursue you is totally valid. But that's all you are entitled to. If he does or doesn't show desire to your liking, then you have to quietly deal with it...why give him crap for being himself any more than he can give you crap for being you?
I must confess that it was much easier for me to change my perception when I wasn't reinforcing it by "reliving and rewriting" it here. The mind is pretty sensitive to suggestion and repetition. If you keep writing..."and he rejected me...", then that memory gets cut into your head much deeper. I'd focus soley on the positive aspects of the new mindset that you want to have. Instead of writing about how a past memory terrified you, write about how for a brief moment, you were so happy that your H thought of you in a certain way. Burn the good ones into your head...not the bad ones.
I gotta get some sleep...it's 2 am here.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Quote: Why reprocess the present in the past and have a "bad feeling" (terrified) when you are in a nice warm bed with a H who is telling you that you would look good doing xxxx?
Because my H has consistently talked about what he would like to have happen--but does not follow it up with action. That is, he would say "I think xyz is so sexy; I want you to do that sometime." So I would do it and he'd pretend not to notice, which is even harder to stomach than someone outright rejecting you, imo. So it is stinkin thinkin but ST that has a basis in actual events. His past behavior is coloring my faith in him, in the present. Why wouldn't it?
However, the difference in my thinking is this: Back in the day, I would have assumed that his indifference was due to me being unattractive. Now if I had to guess, I'd say it's due to his own sense of awkwardness but, honestly, I try not to go there. My loving-but-firm "your loss babe" attitude (verbiage stolen from blackfoot) has done lots for our situation.
Quote: How do you know? Did he tell you?
I was not saying that he doesn't find me attractive. I was saying that my loss of confidence has made me less attractive in his eyes and, yes, he's told me that.
Burn the good and not the bad. That's a gem!
I have a habit of keeping the good to myself...guarding it, protecting it, relishing it...and sharing the bad. It is NOT my intention to gripe or make H out to be a monster; like I said, the good stuff just seems to precious to share. There is definitely lots of good stuff going on. There has been more movement in the last 3 months than in the last 3 years. Thanks again for clarifying your post.
Dave I think you have an EXCELLENT handle on the most important aspects of being an attractive male. strong, confidant, initiator, outcome independant, look for the good, humorous.
But this IMO is wrong
You associate his desire for you with your attractiveness. This might be something so deeply entrenched in the female psyche that it can never be fixed...but it's wrong.
Umm if its entrenched female psyche, then its not wrong, its the nature of the animal. Its not something that needs to be fixed, its something that needs to be handled accordingly. You dont ride a cow, and you dont milk a horse. Both are possible, but the results are less then spectacular.
HD, (kemosabe? Who you calling a horses rear end? them there is fightin words HD. ) can you see me cruising the plains bareback, bowhunting bison on the back of a cow? LOL.
I will say many, many women have zippo self esteem and look to men entirely TOO much to have it filled, but its normal for a man to desire a woman, and for her to feel validated by it. ( I mentioned such a thing to a new poster, and HP handed me a beating for suggesting such a thing. LOL.) The reverse is nice, and likely when all the attributes I described above are demonstrated by the man plus a couple more, but it is not a necessary function of biology.
You make a really good point. My W is so far off-the-chart from being the stereotypical female that it's more like "wow...she may be a cow, but but man, she's not the average cow...she's really fun to ride". Damn, I could get my a$$ kicked for saying that.
I guess my "big point" might just be that a regardless of esteem, genetic predispositions, or programming, the person feeling neglected is 100% responsible for making themselves not feel neglected. Sure, to some degree, the wedding vows are supposed to state an implied amount of mutuality but if one person starts to drift away from the vows, it's your duty to remind them of it. People and feelings change...it's a fact of life.
But instead of simply berating your spouse, it also means doing a reasonable amount of work on yourself so that you aren't inviting them to provide a crutch to one (or more) of your inadequacies. If honey get's to the point where she says "that's it...I've changed as much as I'm ever going to change...it's his turn", then she's faced with a more difficult task of waiting patiently to get the type of attention she wants form her H. If the H isn't into it, regardless of the reason, then it's back in her court to make equally unappealing decisions...leave, cheat, or live with it.
When I realized this, I practiced making myself more comfortable with all three of these options. In the past years, my M has transitioned from being one based upon a whole host compensations for my own inadequacies to become a simple choice to be her partner. Once it's based upon choice you want to invest more in it...I bet great marriage wisdom could be found in corporate HR and management books.
Anyway, honey's sitch is very tricky because of the religious twist. I can't relate to it at all...I actually went through the entire process of planning an exit and I still feel like I have that option if I so choose it. But as I'm living one day at a time, I'm learning to appreciate her for her and not for the gaps (in me) she fills. It may sound twisted to plan an exit, but by pretending to be heading towards singlehood, my own issues became more clear for me to address.
Since I haven't been here in a while, has there been some discussion about Schnarch? I'm still a big believer in him but I've learned that simple "knowledge" of the dynamics involved in a repair don't mean squat until you start living them. in our case, it's been more of a process where I look back and think "wow, he was right" rather than "he fixed us". But the principles are very sound and they relieve a lot of the anxiety associated with relationships.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
I will say many, many women have zippo self esteem and look to men entirely TOO much to have it filled, but its normal for a man to desire a woman, and for her to feel validated by it. (I mentioned such a thing to a new poster, and HP handed me a beating for suggesting such a thing. LOL.) The reverse is nice, and likely when all the attributes I described above are demonstrated by the man plus a couple more, but it is not a necessary function of biology.
What, BF actually agrees with me on something? Anyway, I don't find it such a wonderful post by HowdyFolks, but you know how I like to throw sh*t in the pot. Actually, if I were in a relationship where the woman shrugged as if she couldn't care less while I was getting ready for sex, I'll bet that would really give me a gigantic boner. Or as Rodney Dangerfield put it, why are cars referred to as she. It's because on a cold morning, when you really need it, she won't turn over. Anyway, why bother having sex if the woman couldn't care less, what is the difference between doing that and self-abuse?
Well, BF blew me off when I posted and asked him about his dominance/submission theory. The silence was deafening, but I'm getting used to that on this BB. Don't join the cheering crowds and you get silence. But, that's al-l-l-right.
Our MC suggested something to me this week that I hadn't realized. The holidays are approaching and we are going to have lots of family visiting with us. My WS is stressing about getting everything organized, but, being a man, it doesn't bother me. I figure everything will get done. Anyway, the MC suggested that offering to help and asking what I can do to help get the house organized is a way to appear sexy to a woman. My WS agreed. So a new insight.
"The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places." - Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms, 1929.
Actually TSinA I think that is two things you agree with me on, now.
However it seems to me that what we do with those beliefs and how we individually spin that outlook is considerably different.
I guess I missed your reply, I dont remember a post from you with any questions or comments that seemed inclined to lead to further discussion. I will trot around and look for it. Was it your thread here, your thread there, or my thread?
Keep talking to me in third person and you will be a lone person.
By the way when you throw sh!t in the pot, you can expect no one will want to eat it with you.
) can you see me cruising the plains bareback, bowhunting bison on the back of a cow? LOL. 