Quote: That said, the ones I am familiar with have not really learned how to negotiate with their peers for whatever reason. Perhaps not enough time away from mom/dad so they don't learn to stand on their own? I dunno, but that is my observation.
My experience has not been the same. Homeschooled children are going to have the same range of social characteristics as do publically schooled children. I don't know exactly what is entailed in negotiating with peers, so I don't know how to respond to that.
Here are some of my thoughts on the socialization issue.
At no other time of a human's life are they going to be spending 8 hours a day with a group of ~30 people who are all within a 12-month range of the same age.
Unless kids are living a hermetical existance where they aren't involved in church, neighborhood, community, sports, etc. activities, then they are interacting/socializing with other humans albeit on a much reduced scale.
Just how much time do kids get to "socialize" during school hours anyway? On the bus trip to school, 5-10 minutes before the school bell rings, less than half an hour during lunch, many schools don't even have a play period for younger kids anymore, 5-10 minutes after school, and finally on the bus trip home. Socializing during class hours is not only not allowed, it is rigorously discouraged. So, it looks like maybe about an hour per day?
If your primary peer group are all your age, then I see it as soaking in a pool of collective ignorance.
I think it more important to rear a child to be strong within themselves, to have the opportunity to develop their own personality as much as possible, before subjecting them to the cruelty that is part and parcel of the primary school experience, much less the middle school level. I am writing this from a position of being one of the most popular kids in my school, so it's not a case of sour grapes. That I knew how to play the game well doesn't mean that I liked the game or wanted my child to have to sink into it.
I was not willing to play russian roulette with the quality of socialization my child might get, nor to focus on that as a primary need. Public schooling, even in the primary grades is bog-awful for smart kids. Boredom, enforced silence, mandatory sitting for hours, kindegarten homework, school mandated ritalin, the inability to pursue your curiosity for more than a short period of time if at all, the interminable busy work, the ongoing public embarrassment for the kids who don't get it as quickly, the push to acquiece to authority that may or may not be worthy.
For all the whacked out homeschooled kids (and I know they're out there) I can only point out that they are the result of whacked out parents (who did go through the institutional school systems). So which came first, the whacked out parent or the whacked out kid?
For those homeschooled kids who can't deal with a peer group, my guess is that they would have similar problems no matter what their schooling background might have been. If socialization (and is there a qualifier of good and bad here?) is performed so well primarily in schools, then they have something to answer for in relationship to the group dynamics that are an integral part of the schooling situation because the disfunctional kids shouldn't exist since they've been properly socialized.
Schools are geared for one type of learner - auditory learners. Those kids who can retain much of what they hear in class. Many kids learn better visually (they retain what they read) and many are kinesthetic learners (they retain what they do). Kids with different learning styles aren't accommodated in a group schooling situation.
Schools can't accommodate for the slightly delayed learner - children learn to walk from vastly differing ages. We don't flunk the kids who can't walk at 12 months, but we do flunk kids who aren't at a specific educational place at a specific grading time in a few specific subjects.
The reality is that there are a high percentage of people who couldn't wait to get out of school and who carry the psychological scars of the socialization they incurred.
Quote: The reality is that there are a high percentage of people who couldn't wait to get out of school and who carry the psychological scars of the socialization they incurred.
I went to 5 different schools when I was in the 5th grade.
School One I hated because of the peer pressure / put-downs, from the group I was not part of.
School two, especially the teacher who was on top of what was going inside and outside the classroom, was a dream to attend. Little peer pressure and most negative peer pressure was squashed.
A third school would have been good for me, but I only went there a month. Little negative peer pressure.
The forth school, well I can say it rained almost the whole month and we did not go outside very oftem. Couple that with a teacher that was hell to be around and threatened to put kids hands in ths school's furnace if we did not tow the line, be quiet, and learn like he thought we should learn. I was so glad we moved in two months. Peer pressure? No, we had to stick together.
School five was such a relief from school 4, anything we did was fine with me at first but the "roudy boys group" started to be a problem. Peer pressure eventually got to be anoying. (Most of the roudy boys dropped out of school by the 10 grade.)
Maybe not any reasons to home school or not homeschool but teachers attitude and skill levels in and outside the class and peer behaviors do influence what is learned in school and affect peoples adult life.
When I went to work in a mix of people of different ages and was not in competition with peers all of the time, I felt so much better. I was one of those people who could not wait to get out of school. I use to think that I was one of those slightly slow learners but discovered I wasn't when I went to college.
One difference between school and college was a lack of peer pressure, college credit could be earned at the rate you chose, and you could mix clases as you saw fit, even register for Profs. you liked.
Just how much time do kids get to "socialize" during school hours anyway? On the bus trip to school, 5-10 minutes before the school bell rings, less than half an hour during lunch, many schools don't even have a play period for younger kids anymore, 5-10 minutes after school, and finally on the bus trip home. Socializing during class hours is not only not allowed, it is rigorously discouraged. So, it looks like maybe about an hour per day?
Actually where I live. The children are required to be quite on the bus or are wrote up. Lunches are in assigned seats and quite voices. Anything above a whisper or excessive speaking results in silent lunches. Hallway and bathroom time is monitered and expected to be quite or again they are wrote up. So if they are not in the age group that still has recess. PE is the only class they are allowed any real social interactions.
So I tend to agree with MRS Nop that there really is not much of a difference in the amount of social time school provides vs home schooling
My experience..... If your primary peer group are all your age, then I see it as soaking in a pool of collective ignorance.
I think it more important to rear a child to be strong within themselves,........ That I knew how to play the game well doesn't mean that I liked the game or wanted my child to have to sink into it.
... Public schooling, even in the primary grades is bog-awful for smart kids. Boredom, enforced silence, mandatory sitting for hours, kindegarten homework, school mandated ritalin, the inability to pursue your curiosity for more than a short period of time if at all, the interminable busy work, the ongoing public embarrassment for the kids who don't get it as quickly, the push to acquiece to authority that may or may not be worthy.
.......
....Schools are geared for one type of learner - auditory learners. Those kids who can retain much of what they hear in class. ........ Kids with different learning styles aren't accommodated in a group schooling situation.
......who carry the psychological scars of the socialization they incurred.
MrsNOP -
<inner self aware voice> close your mouth blackfoot. Its not attractive.....
<awareness of truth, appreciation for same inner voice> but, but did you see that? That was amazing....
<bowing and scraping> we're not worthy, we're not worthy
<inner self aware voice> BF that is not attractive to women either.
<awareness of truth, appreciation for same inner voice> Shut up. I am so sick of you all the time with your attraction.Cant I just be me?...
<inner self aware voice> NO. Never. Thats how we ended up here.
<awareness of truth, appreciation for same inner voice> HELLO. Dont interrupt me, I said shut up. Here is not so bad, look at all these amazing people. Besides she is married, I dont care if she has attraction to us, stupid. just knows we appreciated this great post to be printed and filed for possible future family...
<bowing and scraping continue>
(If I am going to act unattractive, contrary to my BB persona I at least have to let you guys know, do as I say not as I do....this time.)
Like I said, I have only completed the first quarter so I can't really speak for the socialization issue in my own daughter but I heartily agree with what you said, in general, about schooling. And it is not a case of sour grapes with me either.
I suppose I feel that my kids will be exposed to the crappiness of the world sooner or later but it sure feels right to me to delay that exposure until they are of an age where they can properly process it and make their own way.
Thank you for your eloquence. I am half in love with you myself but I see that Blackfoot has edged me out, in the adoration from afar dept.
My hat is off to you. I am a HUGE fan of homeschooling. Not all homeschooling but there are many incredible families out there and kids learning incredible things. Overall, the quality of home school education is superior to most public and many private schools. Socialization is what we do every day in the world so unless a family is particularly isolated then positive socilization isn't a worry and there will be MUCH LESS negative socialization.
I lived in a miserable school district for a year when DS was 7 and I homeschooled him that year. He did wonderfully, our family flourished that year. He was in the 99th percentile on his CAT's that year although I followed no canned curriculum and am not a teacher. My children attend public school currently. However, I would not hesitate to pull them out and homeschool them again if ever I felt the need.
I was very very nervous about starting this chapter of my life--just ask MrsNOP. But it is going swimmingly. D is doing great and I truly enjoy the time spent on school SO much. I believe that her love language is quality time so she really blooms during that time.
Chromo, You will be pleased to know that I am going to sign D6 up for some extracurricular activities. I am the type of person who can be contrary...argumentative just for the sake of a good debate. Then I sit back and ruminate and can't stop turning it over and over in my mind. Next thing you know, I'm doing exactly what I said I wasn't going to do and hey who's wonderful idea was that, anyway?! I think you are right, in that she needs more of an extracurricular life than she currently has. Thank you for the push. I need it sometimes.
I've thought about this considerably over the weekend, and I have come to the conclusion that the homeschooled kids I am familiar with all have over-controlling parents. So, I suspect the 'socialization issues' I was referring to are more an artifact of the particular parents and their coddling/controlling actions than it is of homeschooling. I'll bet there is a disportionate amount of these type parents involved with homeschooling, which certainly would color the perception. My hat's off to those parents that can successfully homeschool their kids and yet foster the intellectual freedom to explore ideas that aren't necessarily in line with the Parent's ideas.
This is the thing I wonder about homeschooling. I realize this doesn't apply so much in the younger grades, but as a kid gets older, what about being taught a subject by a teacher who really KNOWS that subject inside and out, versus a parent who may be one chapter ahead of the child in the textbook?
This would obviously apply in scientific areas like chemistry, biology, math-- where when the kid asks, "why do we do this or that?" the teacher who thoroughly knows the subject can call upon their background knowledge and answer from their own personal "data bank."
Sure the homeschooling parent and child can look it up on the internet, but I've always looked to teachers to give me the big picture. This could even apply in softer subjects like literature and history. The child asks something about the Civil War, and the teacher-- who has a thorough knowledge of European history as well as American history-- can say, "Well, this is similar to a situation that existed in Outer Slobovia in 1492 so let's talk about that for a moment and see the connections." Or in literature: "Hawthorne is quoting a line from one of Shakespeare's plays, and Shakespeare was in turn quoting an obscure Hindu legend..." Stuff like that.
Maybe you don't even get that kind of stuff in school anymore. I feel that I was extremely fortunate in my elementary and high school education. I attended seven schools all together (AF brat) and loved school. I have always loved being taught-- I love to be with someone who really knows a subject and wants to transfer that knowledge to me. It feels like the best kind of nurturing. (It's relevant that my home was an emotional wasteland and teachers loved me, God bless them.) I know other people who prefer to make all the discoveries themselves. It's important to them to feel like pioneers. I like standing on the shoulders of the ones who came before me.
So how do homeschoolers deal with the "expert" versus the "amateur seat of the pants one chapter ahead of the class" mentality?
Quote: "The largest data set on the academic success of the home educated reveals positive things. 16,311 students from across the country were tested with the nationally normed Iowa Test of Basic Skills. The nationwide average for the homeschooled on the Basic Battery (i.e., reading, language, and math) was the 77th percentile.
They were at the 79th percentile in reading, the 73rd in language, and the 73rd in math. (The national average is the 50th percentile.) See the table on this sheet.5
Reading: Conventional Schools 50 - Home Education 79 Language: Conventional Schools 50 - Home Education 73 Math: Conventional Schools 50 - Home Education 73
Canada's largest study of its kind revealed similar findings on the academic success of the home educated. Dr. Brian Ray found the students scoring, on average, at the 80th percentile in reading, the 76th in language, and the 79th in math. Students whose parents were certified teachers did no better than the other students.6 "
End Quote
What I found during homeschooling is that we could drop conjugating verbs for a few days and chase down multiple avenues of whatever topic fascinated us that day. Was it true that I couldn't pull out of my memory XY & Z? Absolutely. OTOH, I didn't have to say, "sorry sweetie, it's now 9:15 and we have to do our multiplication tables." Instead, I could say, "let's go to the library, find several different books, audios, videos, magazine articles, scientific/historical journals, haul them all home and spend the next 5 days looking into it. And by the way, there is an exhibit at the museum/park/historic/factory/industry/building on just that very topic. We'll head out there tomorrow."
When it comes to depth, homeschooling has the ability to dig in ways that a schooling situation cannot. OTOOH, there were parents who shoved workbooks at their kids and called it a day. Quality varies. Research shows that overall, homeschooling has been a very succesful way of educating children.
