Lilli, It sounds to me like you don't really understand the Church's position on sex. It is not, and has not been sex just for procreation, in fact is it sinful to deny sex to your spouse. The Church's position is that sex is the gift of life reserved for married couples. It is permitted and even encouraged as an expression of love between couples whether the intent is to procreate or not. The restriction is that as a couple, you are not supposed to interfere in any way with conception, which means no birth control, nor any copulation that is not part of the act of IC. The reason for this is to keep sex as the ultimate expression of love rather than cheapening it to "getting yourself off", which can and often does lead to using your spouse for your own sexual gratification rather than as the expression of love it is supposed to be. By adhering to these ideals, the hope is for it to grow into a love that mirrors God's love for us. The CHurch feels that it is difficult or impossible to reach that level if we are focused on getting ourselves off, and the the act of MB, whether jointly or solo is solely for physical pleasure. If you have a valid reason to avoid conception, the church asks you to exercise the same self control they asked you to exercise before marriage to avoid sexual contact when she is fertile, which amounts to a couple days each cycle. I think I've suggested this to you before, but maybe not: You really ought to read up on Pope John Paul II's Theology of the body before disparaging the Catholic faith for its views on sexuality, which you clearly do not understand. Don't feel bad, most of the Catholics I know haven't taken the time to understand it either.
I guess what I don't understand is why would MB for the sake of better understanding your body so that when IC occurs it will be a better experience, be bad (taking a breath). And I also don't see why IC must be a part of the sexual experience. It seems like any form of sex can be an act of love, and any form of sex can be just for personal gratification depending on the intentions of the people involved.
Anyway, I could go on and on, but it seems like the church (not just catholics but many forms of organized religion) is just painting too broad a brush-stroke, like it tends to do with many different matters. JMHO.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
The focus on the experience for yourself is the problem. Sex is not supposed to be about getting your rocks off, rather it is supposed to be a reflection of the life giving nature of God's love, and a way to celebrate the relationship between yourselves AND God. The Church paints a rather narrow path to follow in God's footsteps. It is your choice whether to follow or not, but if you are to follow you can't take the rules ala-carte, picking only the ones which you like. Yes, it is a hard path to follow at times, and I have not done well staying on that path myself.
"The Church paints a rather narrow path to follow in God's footsteps."
Just so we are clear, it is the CHURCH (i.e. Catholic church) that is defining this narrow path, not the Bible, nor Christianity in general. JMHO (as it is for everyone where religion is concerned)
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Chro-glo, Catholics believe that the path is defined by 3 sources: the Bible, Church doctrine and sacred tradition.
Personally, I find it a little confusing that people rely so completely on the Bible and discount anything after it as merely from "men". I do not believe that the Holy Spirit inspired men to write the Bible and then...just stopped inspiring them. I believe that it is an active and vital presence in our lives and inspires men all the time, so that the Church is alive and growing.
ALL of Catholic doctrine has, in its roots, a Biblical basis. Every section of the Catholic catechism includes, first and foremost, the Biblical basis for the teaching and then includes what it means to us today and how we apply it.
So I absolutely believe that I am living my life the way the writers of the Bible intended. I could care LESS how others live their lives and whether or not they share my beliefs.
I included this tidbit only because I feel that it is relevant to my thread. It certainly adds an element to the SSM that wouldn't otherwise be there.
Okay... how about this idea (I think it's kind of clever): why not tell your H you're putting the two of you on a sex diet. Tell him you are limiting your sexual encounters to three times a week. Tell him what you've told us, that he seems to want it more when it's not available so readily, and that for you to be in the position where you want it all the time and he's not interested as much as you are is bad for both of you. So you're going on a sex diet.
Before you say this is manipulative, I maintain it would only be manipulative if you did this without telling him about it.
Yes, you are interested in sex a lot of the time. But you don't have to have sex just because you're interested. You might be interested in chocolate or doughnuts or watching tv (fill in your own thing here), but you discipline yourself and forego those activities for other reasons, right? Either to lose weight, save money, or just as a personal discipline. In this case, you're foregoing sex to heighten his interest (and maybe your own interest, too). (If three times might seem like a feast to him and letting him off the hook, then make the diet twice a week.)
Tell him you're limiting the two of you to sex three times a week, but you're not going to tell him ahead of time which three nights (or days) those will be. So if he approaches you on Tuesday, you might say, "Well if we do it tonight, then there's only two more times left for the week. Are you sure you wouldn't rather wait?" Or if you do it twice on Saturday, tell him, "Well, that means only once during the week." You'll have to decide when the week starts and ends.
This is specifically in response to your statement that sometimes he passes, because he knows you will be available tomorrow and the day after, too.
If he says, "I know you love sex-- why would you turn it down?" You can say, "I love chocololate (cheesecake, sleeping til 10 am, etc) too, but I discipline myself for reasons of personal growth." Surely he will understand the discipline angle.
As for him seeing through you-- the point is you don't pretend that you're not interested. You let him know you're VERY interested, you're just going to stick to the diet. "Oh, I wish we could tonight, because I'm so horny I could chew nails, but we already did it three times this week, and I'd be breaking my diet." or "I wish we could do it tonight-- you look so delicious, but we already did it twice this week, and if we do it tonight, we won't be able to do it on Saturday, and I was really looking forward to Saturday."
Yeah, it's game-playing, but if you truly make it a game, it just might make you seem more like forbidden fruit. It might kick things up a notch for both of you. It's more playful and spirited than the one-week-for-you one-week-for-me schedule (although that was an excellent idea).
My only concern is that he is a person who is practically addicted to order and routine. And predictability. He likes to know "what's next". We talked about this aspect of his personality this past weekend, as a matter of fact. He said he cannot stand not knowing what's coming. The one time I surprised him with a weekend getaway (he woke up in the morning and I whisked him away, after dropping off the kids) I thought he would have a heart attack. He loved it but was very out of sorts for about 3 hours until he settled into what we were doing.
So I wonder if such a thing would drive him crazy or if he'd like it?
It's worth a try.
Perhaps when we get some EC going again, I will suggest it. This idea is a keeper. He definitely responds to being told "no" but I could not figure out a way to incorporate that into our lives without it seeming manipulative and silly.
"Personally, I find it a little confusing that people rely so completely on the Bible and discount anything after it as merely from "men". I do not believe that the Holy Spirit inspired men to write the Bible and then...just stopped inspiring them. I believe that it is an active and vital presence in our lives and inspires men all the time, so that the Church is alive and growing."
I couldn't agree more. I find myself extremely discouraged at the Biblical "literalists" as they are often called. Everthing that is in the Bible and everything written afterwards has been filtered to some degree through human minds. It is only through humble PERSONAL study (not just dogmatically following what the pastor says) that you can approach a true understanding of the path that God set out for you. The rest of the story is grace. Again, IMHO. I do not think my opinions here represent any absolute truth, just my personal belief.
"So I absolutely believe that I am living my life the way the writers of the Bible intended. I could care LESS how others live their lives and whether or not they share my beliefs."
Ditto
"I included this tidbit only because I feel that it is relevant to my thread."
Glad to hear you say that. I was wondering if I was hijacking a bit.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
You and I don't have to agree with Honeypot and others who live their lives based on their religion and their belief systems that are dictated by their religion....what matters is that there are people like Honeypot (and many others) who do believe these things and who do choose to live their lives in this manner. Their belief system is an integral part of their lives...therefore, going against it is simply wrong to them.
You (and I)can continue saying you don't believe that way, and that you don't subscribe to that belief (that mb'ing is wrong)....what matters is she does, it is a morally wrong thing for her to do according to her beliefs. I don't personally believe that MB'ing is a sin myself (fortunately) however, I respect Honeypot's stance on that issue.
Our jobs here isn't to persuade someone to change their beliefs (for her that would be selling out and it would be sinful and that's more mental torture than it's worth), it's out job to support and help them work within their parameters.
There are many times I read a post where someone quotes the Bible as a guideline...or simply states that doing xyz is against their religion. I have to just say, "ok....so what do yo do if that is what you believe?" I cannot always look at it strictly from my own perspective....that won't work.
