I wonder why your W would guess we are "younger"...and by that what would her definition of that be? I happen to be 38, many of the W on here are around my age and older. We are seasoned women with many experiences that we've already lived through, we know our minds and we don't follow blindly.
I have to wonder what it was you left out of your convo with your W. I find that often when we omit things when relaying information to someone else to get their response...we can tend to leave out the things that might leave an unfavorable impression with the other person. You may not have done this, but I have to wonder what she would say if you actually printed off the convo's and showed them to her. Of course in person she also has the benefit of hearing your voice and seeing your face, something we don't have here.
FWIW, both Honeypot & MrsNOPkins summed up my feelings as well...otherwise this would be a more lengthy post.
I think younger than late 50's (which is us). As far as leaving anything out, which is what I could have guessed you would respond, obviously I left a lot out since I have posted here about 150+ times. But what I can remember saying was that I didn't want to engage in the macho posturing that a lot of women seem to respond to so well here. I don't want to go through all the quotes again, but the gist of my message was/is, that you can find some pretty destructive attacks on this board from BF, USSwede, Cobra, and others, but no one calls them hateful, childish, verbally abusive, so it gives me pause to find out why. On the other hand, BF says I will say many, many women have zippo self esteem and look to men entirely TOO much to have it filled which statement I didn't understand where it was coming from or what the context was, but I totally agree with BF on that and I will go so far as to say that statement pretty much sums up the message I am posting on the board.
"The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places." - Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms, 1929.
I can't imagine the pain that must entail, nor the sense of betrayal. How are you dealing with it?
Well, yeh, that's what I have been saying all along. We are trying to rebuild (my WS and I) with some help from MC and talking things out honestly and using some of the Hendrix exercises (we should do them more but tend to let them lapse) Harville Hendrix
As far as pain and betrayal, I think or suspect that most on this board have experienced some of that. I am assuming that not all have had to deal with affairs, but I would suspect the majority here have. I am saying that dealing with that wrenching pain means rebuilding, which means tearing down sometimes. Also, since I have been lied to, when women on the board defend macho (what an overworked word, I wish there was another way to put it) posturing by USSwede, BF and other, a red flag goes up for me. More lying. You say you want a mutually respectful relationship with your spouse, but you respond positively to dominant, power-seeking, aggressive behavior. (This is kind of nebulous. I'll have to think more about that and come up with something more specific.)
"The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places." - Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms, 1929.
Quote: I will say many, many women have zippo self esteem and look to men entirely TOO much to have it filled which statement I didn't understand where it was coming from or what the context was, but I totally agree with BF on that and I will go so far as to say that statement pretty much sums up the message I am posting on the board.
I don't think either gender has the corner on the lack of self esteem. Anyone that reads this forum for any length of time can very well tell that men are just as needy esteem-wise as are women. I think a great deal of this has to do with the reality that the lines aren't drawn so thick or darkly as they once were in regards to what constitutes man and woman. So, we're all wandering around trying to achieve a standard that no one can point to accurately anymore. In other words, gender roles have been in turmoil for the last 30+ years and both genders are still reeling from it.
In my opinion, BF has confused a female lack of self-esteem with the female need for security. A lot of things go into causing that need which I can list out if anyone can't plug in their own reasons. But females (warning for generalizations) aren't accustomed or outfitted fully for providing for our own security, so we look to our spouse/SO for it. When he's occupied trying to shore up his own insecurities, weaknesses and shortcomings we tend to get idgitty.
And I cannot believe that you'd listen to a woman who had an affair with a man for TWELVE years, a man who is a macho turd, and completely discount the words of the women on this forum who are fighting for their men and their marriages, tooth and nail. Boggles the mind. Yeh, well, I could have expected that attack. But my response is, I suspect I wouldn't have gotten past first base with most of the women on this board for the very reasons I have given above. I don't want to engage in macho, ballsy, directive behavior, which is what most women on this board seem to respond to. My WS didn't seem to want that from me when were getting to know each other. Quite the contrary. She had had enough of that from her first husband (mr. macho man). So, and again we didn't really discuss this in detail, because being a man, I get bored with discussing relationships at length, but I assumed my WS was willing to give the "other side" (gentle, kind, considerate, generous men) a chance.
"The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places." - Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms, 1929.
Yeh, well, I could have expected that attack. But my response is, I suspect I wouldn't have gotten past first base with most of the women on this board for the very reasons I have given above. I don't want to engage in macho, ballsy, directive behavior, which is what most women on this board seem to respond to.
You know you color what you're saying by the words that you choose. Instead of "macho, ballsy, directive behavior" can be a jaundiced-eye view of "assertive, confident, assured."
I don't see any women falling all over BF, contrary to what you continue to assert. In fact, a couple of them were giving him a not-so-very pleasant assessment of some of the characteristics they perceive him as displaying.
Quote:
My WS didn't seem to want that from me when were getting to know each other. Quite the contrary. She had had enough of that from her first husband (mr. macho man). So, and again we didn't really discuss this in detail, because being a man, I get bored with discussing relationships at length, but I assumed my WS was willing to give the "other side" (gentle, kind, considerate, generous men) a chance.
"Gentle, kind, considerate, generous" man could be viewed (if we want to use your reciprocal jaundiced-eye view) as "weak, sentimental, indecisive, martyr" men.
But that's not very productive.
I'll tell you what I think. I think it is very difficult (and understandably so) to deal with *your* specific situation. You have quite a bit of anger (again, understandably so) and rather than foist that on your wife within the confines of your relationship, you've stepped away from your *specifics* and have chosen to expend your anger into the *generics*.
Hence, the ongoing jabs at the women here and the men who you deem to be the antithesis of yourself.
But that's not very productive either.
So, rather than beat everyone about the head with your displeasure fo the general interactions between men and women, why don't we discuss your specific situation?
TS, My husband is also gentle, kind, considerate and generous. If he acts like this from a position of strength and assertiveness, I will find him an irresistable package.
If he displays those traits in a weaker posture or because he does not deem himself worthy or deserving of me--thereby submitting himself to ME--I will cease to find him attractive.
I agree with what Mrs NOP is saying. I get the very strong impression that you have a LOT of pent up anger and resentment, justifiably so. But as I have been saying lately in my thread, that must evaporate in order to move forward. I wonder if part of your problem lies in the fact that your W dominates you, you don’t like it, but are too scared to stand up to her. So you get angry that she doesn’t have the empathy, decency, morality, what ever, to be more respectful of you as you are without having to be more assertive, aggressive, more male. You rail against the macho BS that other men must put up in order to be attractive to women, but that very macho-ness, which is lacking in you, is truly what makes you angry. In essence, you are projecting!
Your anger and your problems stem from within you. All your comments so far seem to be nothing more than rationalizing your behavior, saying why everyone else is wrong and you are right and why can’t we seem the wisdom of your outlook. I see very little in your comments that are directed at attacking your wife. You seem to be scarred of her even on this board! Could it be that attacking her will ultimately come back to your faults, and you know this, so you lash out at everyone else on theoretical grounds, where you think you can make your point?
Drop all of it. Go inside yourself and find your fears. Post them here. Then start moving forward.
I wonder if part of your problem lies in the fact that your W dominates you, you don’t like it, but are too scared to stand up to her. So you get angry that she doesn’t have the empathy, decency, morality, what ever, to be more respectful of you as you are without having to be more assertive, aggressive, more male
Yeh, you're wondering that, but I haven't posted anything to suggest that. It's possible, that I am very angry about that, but anger usually comes out in some destructive behavior (not here, in real life). If the anger were there, I assume it would have come out in our MC sessions. Or in drinking. Or in antisocial behavior - fights, road rage, psychosocial problems. We are seeing an MC whom I respect (he has worked with some others in our church, and they also have good things to say about him, as does our minister). Things like anger or repressed anger usually come up in therapy, but I haven't heard that from him, so don't think it's an issue. Before making the above "comments", you could have done a little research and looked at my previous post: TSINATLANTA
When I give feedback, I usually try to at least cite someone's quotes. I have gotten very angry with my WS several times, not often, but it has happened. The result was she went upstairs, lay down on the bed and cried. So we cried together and I said I was sorry that it came to that. I suspect that I let things build up and don't bring things up that bother me, out of apathy or laziness or whatever. I'm not projecting anything anywhere. If I don't like the respect that women give here to macho comments, I don't like them and say so.
When I found out about the affair, my wife apologized, cried, said she was sorry and promised no more contact and to work on our marriage, said she thought we had a strong marriage. Our minister, whom I respect also, told me, "You would be surprised how many marriages I consider good marriages have had to deal with affairs. But you need to know that things in the past cannot continue, and you need to work on your marriage." Which we are doing.
When we began our MC, my WS also told the MC that she was sorry at how she had hurt me and wanted to work to repair the hurt. (This information is already on my posts). So, as I said, anything is possible, but look at my situation first, then make your comments.
So, now we get to attacks again. I classify accusing me of being henpecked and not having the courage or honesty to stand up to my wife as a personal attack. So anyone is capable of personal attacks if rubbed the wrong way, not just myself.
"The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places." - Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms, 1929.
