Was the infertility as a result of physical issues of yours or of your wife's? Had you/she/both of you been hoping for more children?
I only ask because if it is your wife's, then she would be pretty close to understanding the lost dream concept. Even though you now have a son, and I'm sure you're both very happy about that, the sense that your body has betrayed you by not doing what other bodies do so easily (and in fact what other bodies have to be PREVENTED from doing) is something a woman doesn't necessarily "get over" (again, similar to the flying issue).
If it was your physical issue, then couple that with the heart thing and that's something else to grieve/be pissed off about/feel betrayed over.
Your comment
Quote: I'll just add that the infertility has been "resolved". I only mentioned it as an analogy...
seems to minimize the issue. Infertility is a big deal. I agree with you that the process of dealing with this probably left scars...
I'm curious: Since you started out in such an unromantic way, I'm wondering if y'all hadn't been able to have a baby, would the marriage have survived?
Quote: Was the infertility as a result of physical issues of yours or of your wife's? Had you/she/both of you been hoping for more children?
could've been both. can't say absolutely. long story!
Quote: I only ask because if it is your wife's, then she would be pretty close to understanding the lost dream concept. Even though you now have a son, and I'm sure you're both very happy about that, the sense that your body has betrayed you by not doing what other bodies do so easily (and in fact what other bodies have to be PREVENTED from doing) is something a woman doesn't necessarily "get over" (again, similar to the flying issue).
yes, it is, or can be, very similar. however, there are many paths to parenthood, and not many government agencies out there that are telling people that they will not be *allowed* to do this. But yes, for those who wind up with a diagnosis of "sterility" (not common), its a very similar sort of loss...a loss of identity...shocking, for most, although some can see it coming, from family history or past medical problems that are known to "maybe cause fertility issues" someday. Still, though, probably more analagous to my being rejected by the military for some picayune reason, but not completely disqualified from all other sorts of commercial aviation. I could still reach the goal, but the path would be different than I expected...but no, mine is completely GONE.
Quote: If it was your physical issue, then couple that with the heart thing and that's something else to grieve/be pissed off about/feel betrayed over.
well, W has plenty for which to feal "betrayed" by her own body...other medical problems, auto-immune arthritis...her own body attacking her own body...probably very much a factor in the infertility, too. *I* have alot of anger over some possible male-factor issues. Medication I was taking for years could have been our initial problem...no way to prove it, but this medication is *known* to cause male-factor infertility, but only a very few doctors (infertility specialists)know about it. There should be big red letters on the bottle: MAY CAUSE INFERTILITY IN MEN. but there isn't. why? I don't know. Its being researched as a potential male birth control pill. a category of blood pressure medication, extremely common, known as "calcium channel blocker". anyway, the first line of defense irt "infertility" is your family doc, most commonly the w's gyneocologist...they don't know JACK about infertility, but they get stuck with it. and they certainly don't know about this pill...so we wasted a couple of years before getting to a real expert...who basically ignored the male half of the equation. I stumbled across this info on the internet...questioned the reproductive endocrinologist, who said, "oops...sorry". But NOW...several years had past since W originally presented as "normal" on all the initial infertility screenings...now, she's showing signs of "too old". so we had to battle that....
anyway, it *could* have been a male factor problem initially...we don't know. the only way to know is to do an IVF cycle, whilst on this medication, which no RE would allow...and see if the spermies fertilize the egg. (the medication in question inhibits this function; it does not lower sperm counts...but most people, MD's included, think that the presence of sperm equates to a male's fertility. they are completely ignorant.). I actually know several people that tell the story: they were having problems, consulted a competant doc...doc said, "might be your meds, bob...lets change 'em"...then 3 months later, they're pg. (it takes 3 months to make sperm...stop this med, and 3 months later, you've got a fresh batch of unaffected swimmers rolling off the assembly line.) sigh...you got me started. didn't I say, "don't get me started"? anyway...yeah, I'm pissed because this whole thing might have been completely avoidable.
Quote: Your comment
Quote: I'll just add that the infertility has been "resolved". I only mentioned it as an analogy...
seems to minimize the issue. Infertility is a big deal. I agree with you that the process of dealing with this probably left scars...
again, not minimizing...just further enlightening. yeah, it sure as heck IS a big deal...probably much more so than the other stuff, in terms of sheer impact on the R...but like I said, more from the "process". the state of being infertile has past...
Quote: I'm curious: Since you started out in such an unromantic way, I'm wondering if y'all hadn't been able to have a baby, would the marriage have survived?
I think it would have. we were actually getting pretty used to the idea of it never working. our prognosis was very, very poor. The +pg test came as a real shock to both of us. we were very lucky. remember, too, this is not the point where the "happily ever-after" commenced, either. next came pg, and mommy-hood, which was worse for the R than the infertility. thats another chapter for another day...
I dunno about the second half of the Madonna/Whore sydrom, but poss/prob the first part as his dad abandoned his mom by H's 3bd. That and things were 'just fine' before the wedding ring poisioning. Mute at this point, except for theraputic release for all involved. (HM deceased)
Anyway has anyone heard of a bad encounter, that with odor or desease or something being brought forward to the event from that day forward? Maybe you can extrapolate? H is allergic to fish; but not really. I thought it was real till he loved some gumbolia[sp] and a recent interview with the nuclear medicine ppl in prepreation for a proceedure. Then there were fish oil capsules for Omegs3 and inflamation which shows no complications.
Could a "meaninful, infamous" encounter have tainted him for life psychologically?
How does a novice 'go there'? He won't go to a shrink, affectionatly. Or does the leaman just give up?
Pity me that the heart is slow to learn
What the swift mind beholds at every turn.
Edna St. Vincent Millay
I came across this today... everything in it doesn't apply to your sitch, Chuck, but there are some helpful concepts here.
Steve, if you're reading this thread, you might find some things here to relate to. It's specifically about men grieving the loss of a loved one to death, but later in the article, the guy talks about how grief can come about because of other losses-- and I would certainly put a major health loss in this category (applies to both Chuck and Steve's partner).
What a health loss does is take away the future you were supposed to have. I know that when my late H and I first got married, we were deliriously happy and deliriously in love and then when his health problems started to accumulate, we knew that the rest of our married life together would be multiple trips to the hospital until eventually the trip he would not come home from... We didn't say this out loud, but it was there in the room with us.
Anyway, here goes:
Quote: Handling Grief as a Man By Bob Miller
Most every man heard it when he was a boy in grade school, after scraping his knee and running home with tears in his eyes: "Come on, big boys don't cry." Later on, sometime in high school, after a particularly hard fall in gym class or on the football field, came the message, "Keep moving. Take it like a man."
The messages come through loud and clear to most men in our culture: grieving, expressing pain, showing emotion - these are not manly traits. To express your pain is to be less than a man.
It's hard for men to deal with grief, loss, or failure, given the cultural messages most men have internalized. It may also be difficult for reasons that are purely biological. Research is emerging that indicates that men may not be able to easily generate emotional tears because of a lack of prolactin, a hormone essential to the production of tears. This may explain why men find themselves unable to cry when grief or loss comes upon them.
The wounds of loss, tragedy, failure, and death eventually touch everyone, both male and female. But unfortunately, men do not generally do a very good job of grieving, because many of us don't know how to grieve. It's important that we learn, because to ignore grief is to risk serious emotional, spiritual, and physical damage.
This CareNote is designed to help men better understand the grief process and to find healthy ways to deal with grief in their lives.
Realize that grieving can be constructive. The things that bring us grief- the illness or death of a loved one, the breakup of a chose relationship, the loss of a job, or any kind of significant change in our lives are painful and cause much distress. But becoming aware of personal losses, and slowly learning to deal with them, can be an enormously beneficial process for a man.
When we ignore grief's signals of inner unrest, turmoil, tension, sadness, and anger, then our bodies, relationships, and spirits—our very lives—pay the price. Many men believe that uncomfortable feelings will just go away if ignored. Men seem to expect that life's problems and pains can be dealt with as efficiently as taking a car to a mechanic. We look for a quick fix, to be able to move on with our lives of action.
Men are not machines, however, and grief can't be handled cleanly or efficiently. We need to learn to sit quietly with our feelings, uncomfortable as they may be at times.
Feelings are not useless accessories that can be disposed of in the out-basket of life. They must be confronted, respected, even honored, and men must learn to walk through grief rather than trying to make an end-run around it.
We can start by accepting the grief we feel as a good thing, a set of feelings giving us valuable information about what is going on in our lives and how it affects us at the deepest levels. In fact, grief is one of the few things that can lead us to change our way of living and relating to the world. These painful feelings can shatter the illusion of power and control that many men feel. Grief can become the "necessary wounding" that men need in order to see ourselves more realistically, to grow, to change, and to realize our need for others.
Traumatic grief generally occurs when a death is: -sudden, unexpected, and/or violent -caused by the actions of another person -an accident, suicide, homicide, or other catastrophe -from natural causes but there is no history of illness.
A traumatic death shatters the world of the survivor. It's a loss that doesn't make sense as the survivor tries to make sense and create meaning from a terrible event. The family searches for answers, confronting the fact that life is NOT fair. Bad things DO happen to good people and the world doesn't feel safe.
This shattering of belief about the world and how it functions compounds the tasks of grieving. Many times, one's spiritual belief system may no longer work, and this is another loss for the bereaved.
In the initial days, weeks, and months, the individual may go from periods of numbness to intense emotions in brief time periods. In general, it takes two years or more for people go through the grieving process and adapt to a major loss. With a traumatic death, the time period may be longer.
Over time, the intensity and frequency of painful periods diminish. [Lil's note: This may cause you to think that you are "done" with the grieving process. But the following reactions are perfectly normal a year, two, or even more after the loss.] People may feel worse a year or more after the death. The numbness that helped to protect them in the early months is gone and the full pain of the loss is very real. Family and friends may have gone back to their own lives, and not be as supportive. Over the years, holidays and special family events increase the feelings of grief. When a similar traumatic event occurs, people may feel re-traumatized or that they are reliving their own loss. Involvement with lawsuits or the justice system can cause upsurges of grief during the entire course of that involvement. As these things occur and if the coping gets more difficult, it may be time to seek some counseling.
Common Physical Reactions -Numbness -Tightness in the throat or chest -Shortness of breath Sensitivity to loud noises -Forgetfulness and difficulty concentrating -Agitation and restlessness may also be experienced, which will decrease in time.
Because an event has occurred that is beyond one's control, people feel out of control. Regular exercise may help to control these experiences. Putting more structure into a daily routine will help one to feel more in control. It's often helpful to keep lists, write notes, or keep a schedule.
Common Emotional Reactions -Shock: The physical and emotional shock may be prolonged. -Persistent memories or dreams about the event may occur for months. Talking or writing about it can help to break the cycle of obsessive thoughts. -Fear and Anxiety: Simple activities, like taking a shower, being in the dark, or opening a closed door, may cause fear or anxiety. This is a normal response, but if the anxiety prevents normal routine for a prolonged period, it's important to see a physician or therapist. -Guilt: Guilt over things done, or not done, regrets about the past, and guilt for surviving. Much of the guilt that people feel is emotional and not rational but knowing this does not help to alleviate those feelings. They should forgive themselves for doing the best that they could at the time, for being human. When guilt persists, people are often helped to deal with it in support groups or with a therapist. -Anger: Anger and rage come from the feelings of helplessness and powerlessness one feels after a traumatic death and can be overwhelming for family members.
Recognize the many faces of grief. Grief is not limited to experiences having to do with terminal illness, death, and funeral parlors. Certainly grief includes such experiences, but any event that involves loss or change can be a source of grief. Job loss or transfer, divorce or separation, serious sickness, work conflicts, financial failures, mid-life crisis, vocational uncertainty-all of these can be occasions of grief.
Grief is particularly difficult for men who expect—or may be expected by others—to be strong. The saying, "Big boys don't cry," which many males hear from early childhood on, may make it hard for men to express themselves fully. Grieving men who bottle up their feelings may appear to others to be adjusting well. Instead, they could be suffering alone, unable or unwilling to seek the support of friends, family, or community groups.
While everyone who loses someone special or experiences another kind of serious loss grieves in his own way, there is evidence that individuals who do not acknowledge the significance of their loss or seek support may prolong the grief process and put themselves at risk for additional stress. This may be one reason widowers have a higher death rate from suicide, accidents, strokes, and heart disease than married men of the same age. Because women have a longer life expectancy than men, few men expect to outlive their spouses. You are less likely to have given much thought to being widowed and have never discussed with children or friends what you would do.
Help yourself by: -Thinking about how you have handled other crises in your life. These might give you insight into what has been best for you and reveal some transferable skills to help you now. -Joining a support group that provides an opportunity to be with others who understand. -Avoiding irreversible decisions such as quitting your job, selling your house, or moving. -Being nonjudgmental with yourself and others. -Not hurrying the grief work. -Letting family and friends know how you are feeling or what their most helpful contribution could be. -Talking with others in our who understand some of the pain you are feeling. -Let yourself heal one one minute at a time, then one hour, and one day at a time.
Said one widower: "I didn't realize until one year after she had died that I had not fully accepted my wife's death. I would hear her and imagine her in every room. Finally, I realized this was my way of denying her death emotionally." Healing from loss is a natural process and will occur eventually if the process is not denied.
"No winter lasts forever; no spring skips its turn." -- Hal Borland
Quote: What a health loss does is take away the future you were supposed to have
absolutely.
and I'm fully aware of all that cultural "guy stuff" that he talks about in the article, too.
I guess I'm just too thick to understand what the problem is. I don't understand how I have "not" grieved...enough, or fully, properly, or completely...I don't think I've bottled it up, hidden it, or otherwise swept anything under the rug. I've talked plenty...though, I don't know of any support groups for medically disqualified pilots. (there is an internet message board for people with my particular heart condition...but that's not much help...mostly people w/ a much more severe case than mine, and they talk about their day-to-day troubles dealing w/ the disease...meds, symptoms, etc. for me, the worst thing is that since I have this condition, I might suddenly drop dead without warning. I might also get run over by a bus, as could any of us.). I don't have any of those emotional or physical symptoms. So what am I supposed to do? I don't think I feel any differently about it than I have for probably 15 of the 17 years since "it" happened. Its not like I'm some dysfunctional drunk lying in a gutter, unable to cope. I have a new career, a good job...I pay my taxes, I make the rent, and I love my wife and kid. so I'd rather be flying...I'm sure that will always be.
well, the conversation kind of got moved from one hijacked thread to another... but the "symptom" is SSM....the cause, or at least my contribution, is that I'm a dismissive/avoidant closed off emotionally non-communicative, yadda yadda yadda. W says that that its related to or at least exacerbated by the "flying/heart" thing, which is "unresolved". I don't know a): if this is true, or b): if it is true, what to do about it. my cold, calculating engineer-type self says that it just "is"...life sucks and then you die.
CAC, I said you were like my H and you are. You both are grounded pilots and seemingly unsensitive guys. I can only say that when H went in for a hernia repair and had his preop shot the softness in his face, his guard was down and he asked, "Will you be here when I get out?"
That was so endearing it softened my "damn, now I have to do this for you too" attitude att. If you don't know what to do. Ask her. But try being vunerable, trusting, "little" in your own way. Try needing her comforts, try engaging her in watching Ole Yeller together or something like that. Try asking her to teach you. Try getting her a little something, just because.
Buy a book, 'the 5 love languages' for starters and read it TOGETHER <---underlined! Sitting on the sofa. Some will be foreign to both of you. Some will be, "just dumb" some will hit home and you can work on it. Some will just start conversation and you two can go from there. {{{HUGS}}}
Pity me that the heart is slow to learn
What the swift mind beholds at every turn.
Edna St. Vincent Millay
Are you hoping we will agree with you or convince you otherwise?
Quote: I'm a dismissive/avoidant closed off emotionally non-communicative, yadda yadda yadda. W says that that its related to or at least exacerbated by the "flying/heart" thing, which is "unresolved"
All-right-y then! I AM on the right track. And the grieving article is right on target. Well, ARE you dismissive, avoidant, and closed-off emotionally? Even if it's not due to unresolved grief (and I'm not convinced of this-- heart thing, flying thing, residual emotional scars from infertility thing, fact that the R did not start out with the two of you being wildly in love so you have no warm, fuzzy memories to go back to)... these suggestions from the article might be helpful:
Quote: Help yourself by: -Thinking about how you have handled other crises in your life. These might give you insight into what has been best for you and reveal some transferable skills to help you now. -Joining a support group that provides an opportunity to be with others who understand. -Avoiding irreversible decisions such as quitting your job, selling your house, or moving. -Being nonjudgmental with yourself and others. -Not hurrying the grief work. -Letting family and friends know how you are feeling or what their most helpful contribution could be. -Talking with others in who understand some of the pain you are feeling. -Let yourself heal one minute at a time, then one hour, and one day at a time.
I would draw your attention particularly to the two I have bolded. A while back (before the hijack got hijacked with suggestions of things you might substitute for flying...), I suggested that you enlist your W as an ally, e.g., "Honey, you may be right about whatever-whatever... I want to be able to be more open. Will you help me work on this?" [I said it better back there.]
It's the adversarial thing that bites you in the a$$. The feeling that your SO is The Enemy... I understand this very well... I have to remind myself of this constantly. "He is not The Enemy he is not The Enemy he is not The Enemy..."
The bottom line, Mr. Engineer, is that what you're doing now is not getting you to where you want to be. Ergo, suggest you go to the drawing board and design something different.
But yes, for those who wind up with a diagnosis of "sterility" (not common), its a very similar sort of loss...a loss of identity...shocking, for most, although some can see it coming, from family history or past medical problems that are known to "maybe cause fertility issues" someday. Still, though, probably more analagous to my being rejected by the military for some picayune reason, but not completely disqualified from all other sorts of commercial aviation. I could still reach the goal, but the path would be different than I expected...but no, mine is completely GONE. 
but the "symptom" is SSM....the cause, or at least my contribution, is that I'm a dismissive/avoidant closed off emotionally non-communicative, yadda yadda yadda. 