Fatalist...

[OG_Lou]

Re Lostgal What should I have said about his 'look' so that he didn't turn and walk away pouting?

Lg, I think some things are better left out of conversations. His look was "his look", and maybe it would have been better to pass it by. I know, hard to do.

Actually both the comment about the Look and him saying will this lead to an argument were both button pushing or taking the bait, or what ever you want to call them.

I learned the less I said while working in the delinquent boy's group home, the less things were stirred up.

I have no doubt you knew something about his look and what it meant to him and you, but was the main point of the conversation about how best to walk the dog, or making sure everyone was saying things in a proper manner.

I know BB and I get distracted by looks, body language, and tone of voice. I work hard at not responding the "extras parts of the conversation." Gee's, I want to work things out but the extras make it difficult.

Lil said, make believe you are looking at a chess game and don't be a player in the game. Be above the board and stay out of the OP's crap.

You can't fix them or teach them to sing with you if they don't want to. Maybe they just want to whistle or hum for the rest of the musical event.

About walking the dog, what are some of your H's ideas? Go over them before the dog needs walking. Things like is the dog over weight, has other medical problems like under active thyroid, joint problems, how much food to feed the dog and what brand/version, snacks or no snacks.

Do some of this before a scheduled event takes place. Avoid deciding at the moment when an activity needs to be carried out. BB and I have been through this like the dogs are kids. Here is a good resource web site Cesar Millan, Inc.

He has a weekly program on the National Geographic Channel and this is their web page.

[LostGal]

Lou,

I've been told I critisize him all the time. I need your feed back and his to help me not do this. Thank you.

[Lillieperl]

Chuck, I've been involved with/in love with several pilots, so I do understand.

I think it's worth noting how you either discounted. deflected, or devalued several of my attempts to reach out to you, to wit:

no, I never told myself or anyone else that it wasn't a big deal. probably the opposite. *I* know its a huge deal, but I figure that most other people just wouldn't get it. Anyone who doesn't have what we pilots refer to as "the bug". once you get it, there's no getting rid of it, and no one that doesn't have it can quite understand it. Your late H would understand...even if he didn't have the bug himself (lots of people in war-time kind of "fall into" aviation...they didn't necessarily seek it out. many of them just hang it up when their hitch is over, and never miss it or look back) but he knew people that did [Lil comment: you have made the assumption that my H didn't have the bug, based on--??]. And pretty much the same thing happened to him. except, he at least got to "the top", if only for a short time.
anyhow, yeah, W says I didn't completely "grieve" this loss. sure, I was angry...still am. again, it "just is", and there's nothing I can do about it. there isn't a day that goes by that I don't think about it.

well, its not as bad as all that. we just grew together, slowly...not much that can be described as "whirlwind", but so what? it just wasn't "typical". neither are "we".

That IS who I am now. the result of my experience...a flightless bird, with clipped wings. Thats never going to change.

I'm not criticizing your comments or questioning the veracity of them. Just note that as I was reaching out to you, you pushed me away. Please don't defend yourself-- I'm not attacking you. Just observing how these comments felt to me. Do you often push people away who are offering you warm fuzzies?

To give credit where credit is due, this was a straightforward statement with no negative "spin" on it

my marriage will be fine. we've made great progress in the last couple of weeks, recognizing some of these destructive patterns.

It is necessary to go through a grieving process after a great loss. Believe me, I know all about this. To try to skip over that by saying, "Well, there's nothing I can do about it, so what's the point of grieving?" is not good. Here's why: it's never an outward situation that causes us emotional pain. The emotional pain is caused by our FEELINGS about the outward circumstances. Grieving, processing, talking about it, taking down the emotional walls... these things can't change the circumstances, but they can change the FEELINGS and so reduce some of the pain.

You're thinking "YES BUT" I can't be a pilot, so how can I FEEL better? You're (Lil) asking me to FEEL better about something I can never FEEL better about.

I believe that your bottled up anger and grief are having a ripple effect in your marriage... maybe you'll never FEEL better about the loss of your dream of being a pilot. I don't know for sure... but you will probably FEEL better about the rest of your life when you air out that anger and grief.

You say you think about this every day. And that your W has said you should grieve this-- quite sensitive of her, if you ask me. Many wives would not say this. (My late H's first wife would NEVER think of this-- way too self-centered.)

This is something legitimate to feel bad about. And even if others can't specifically relate to the loss of a dream to be a pilot, MOST people past a certain age can relate to the loss of some kind of dream. So when people reach out to you, reach back-- don't minimize your hurt to yourself. It's as though a little-boy-version of yourself is tugging on your pants leg and saying, "You mean Christmas is NEVER going to come??" and you're kicking the little tyke away and snarling, "Yeah, kid, that's what I said: no Christmas, no Santa, no presents! Now beat it! You're bothering me!"

Be kind to that disappointed guy inside of you, and give others the opportunity to be kind to him, too.

[cac4]

I think it's worth noting how you either discounted. deflected, or devalued several of my attempts to reach out to you...

well, I didnt' mean to do that. I only meant to further explain, because most people don't get it. You get it; thats great. But most people see airplanes the same way they see a can opener. "what could possibly be the big deal??".
most people (not that I tell the story that often, but) respond with something like, "yeah, I always wanted to do that, too, but I wore eye-glasses since I was a kid". No, that is NOT even close to being the same thing. Or, offer another annoying "little engine that could" anectdote..."pma will get you around any obstacle...if you try try try..." BULL$HIT! these people have obviously never dealt with the FAA

anyhow...

Lil comment: you have made the assumption that my H didn't have the bug, based on--??

.
no, didn't assume. I said "IF". even IF he didn't have the bug himself, he would still understand. either way, he would understand, too.

Do you often push people away who are offering you warm fuzzies?

Its never been mentioned before...didn't think so, but maybe I do.

I believe that your bottled up anger and grief are having a ripple effect in your marriage... maybe you'll never FEEL better about the loss of your dream of being a pilot. I don't know for sure... but you will probably FEEL better about the rest of your life when you air out that anger and grief.

You say you think about this every day. And that your W has said you should grieve this-- quite sensitive of her, if you ask me. Many wives would not say this...

yep. but what I don't understand is:
a) how its affecting other things
b) WHAT to do about it? exactly what???? "grieve"...what does that mean? how do you do it???

its annoying me, reading the Schnarch book..."release the anxiety".
If I knew how to do that, I wouldn't need the #%$ book!

So when people reach out to you, reach back-- don't minimize your hurt to yourself. It's as though a little-boy-version of yourself is tugging on your pants leg and saying, "You mean Christmas is NEVER going to come??" and you're kicking the little tyke away and snarling, "Yeah, kid, that's what I said: no Christmas, no Santa, no presents! Now beat it! You're bothering me!"

I don't mean to minimize; I just don't know what to do about it.
"and yeah, kid. there ain't no Santa Claus". thats exactly what it feels like.

[Lillieperl]

Regarding people who think they "understand" but don't... I got that a lot when my husband died (and most other widows get this, too)... "Oh yeah, I know exactly what you're going through... my grandmother died when I was a kid."

Chuck, you're very defensive. You're on guard, and you seem to bite back when it's not necessary. You've got a chip on your shoulder. You're pissed and the only one it's hurting is you. Time to heal this wound. Time to take off the armor.

How to grieve? It's a path that each of us has to walk eventually over something, sometimes many times. There's no one simple answer. For starters, try living with the question for a while... when you get that "yeah, kid, there's no Christmas" feeling, don't say ANYTHING. Just BE with it. Notice how it feels. Where is it in your body? Head, shoulders, back, neck. Don't run from it, retreat from it, distract yourself from it, or lash out at the person who brought it to your attention accidentally or intentionally... just BE quietly with it for a while. You can't go wrong with this method. This is a process, a journey... there's no quick way through it.

Also, I KNOW you didn't mean to deflect my comments. It's just a habit you've formed, probably to avoid the sting of being reminded. It was just an observation... a mirror, as it were.

And you know who can help you with this? Your wife. You can ask her, "Honey, do I push you away when you offer me comfort or warm fuzzies? (However it is you two talk to each other.) She can tell you. Ask her, "When I do that, will you come over and put your hand on my arm and tell me kindly. I don't want to push you away, but I need your help." Geez...most women, if their man said that would melt into a puddle at his feet. (Not all-- hairdog's W would probably knee him in the groin... goodness knows, my bf does not react like most men... when I read those "how to spice up your sex life" articles in the women's magazines, I usually have to go off somewhere and cry... but I digress... )

The other thing that occurs to me is that you're living with a deep and bitter paradox-- your HEART was the cause of your losing your dream. Of course, it was the physical organ of your heart that was the source of the physical problem, but the "heart" is also the source of those caring, compassionate feelings... It's almost as if you said, "Okay, Heart-- you did this to me, and I'm gonna pay YOU back big time!" How do you forgive your heart for betraying you like this? A big challenge, my dear-- my husband had many health issues as a result of his diabetes, heart attacks, leg amputation, hip replacement, erectile dysfunction-- hard for him to still have benevolent feelings toward a body that was letting him down constantly. What a struggle that was for him! Can you forgive your heart for letting you down?

Thank you for engaging in this dialogue with me.

[LostGal]

We know that distressed couples settle into rigid interaction patterns. Perhaps the most distressed pattern is that of the disappointed, angry, blaming wife demanding contact from a man who withdraws. Couples can stay stuck in this for years. We know from the research of John Gottman that this is a sure killer of marriages.

But it is only through the lens of attachment that we come to understand what makes such patterns of behavior so devastating. This answer is, they block emotional engagement; they stand in the way of contact and exacerbate attachment fears. As partners hurl anger and contempt at each other or withdraw, emotional engagement becomes more and more difficult. Patterns of attack--defend or attack- withdraw are highly corrosive to a relationship because they preclude a safe way for a couple to emotionally engage each other and create a secure bond.

What couples are really fighting about is rarely the issue they seem to be fighting about--the chores, the kids. It is always about separateness and connectedness, safety and trust, the risk of letting someone in to see the exposed, vulnerable self.

Marital distress, then, is not a product of personality flaws. Nor is anger in relationships irrational. It is often a natural part of a protest that follows the loss of accessibility and responsiveness to a partner. It is an adaptive reaction--anger motivates people to overcome barriers to reunion. Self-defeating as it may be, anger is an attempt to discourage a partner from further distancing.

The article Haphazard found on attachment.

I asked H how he feels now that he's in the Bell curve for ED and age. He glared. I said that I didn't think I'd buy that either.

After a moment or two talking about health I asked if he had gotten squared away with the situation over the last 20 years.

He said he wasn't sure, but there was a light bulb. 20 years?

[OG_Lou]

Re Cac4 I only meant to further explain, because most people don't get it. You get it; that's great. But most people see airplanes the same way they see a can opener. "what could possibly be the big deal??".

I know the industry isn't any thing like a can opener. I watched all of the history of aviation that was on the history and discovery Channels. The history of the helicopter was the most interesting. One of the Discovery Channels had "how to build your own plane and how to build a helicopter from kits. They also had learning to fly series.


I don't fly but want to fly small planes at one time. No money and I didn't see it happening because of money. I also limited myself because of lack of money. I decided being an auto mechanic was practical and something I could do.

Still no money, I was supporting my mother, and working 54 to 60+ hrs a week.

Fast forward 15 years, married with 2 kids and a house and bills.

During the day, I was service manager in a small shop and a line mechanic. I over worked and started to have serious back problems. I had a well equipped shop at home and a steady stream of customers there too.

My home shop had a decent inventory of parts, them one week i couldn't get out of bed.

I had back surgery, was off work for 6 months, did light duty for another 6 months.

I worked on the line (in the shop) for another 5 years then I am flat on my back again. I still have my repair shop and customers at home. I still have a good inventory of parts at home.

Well, the second back injury devastated me. I was a mechanic with two careers or at least two sources of income, and two sources of self worth.

In a short time both were gone. I felt I was almost nothing because I couldn't work and I spent 25 years getting to that point.

I quit high school to work. I got a GED, while working. After the second back fiasco, I went to college and earned a BS in 2.75 years with a 3.82/4.0 GPA. I still couldn't find work because of limitations due to my back problems and employers avoided people with back injuries.

I went a semester in a masters program but felt i had to go to work so took a 3rd shift job in a group home. Talk about a let down. Me, A top 5% of the class student and all I can muster up for work is babysitting some delinquent boys from 11PM to 7AM.

My point?? Not that I had something that I lost, but my road to mental recovery was not defining myself as something I wanted, but as something I could do in addition to what I lost or couldn't do.

Cac4, sorry about the loss of your aviation dream. You are more than that one dream. What are some of your other interests or abilities? You might find some peace in those. Wanting what you can't have, well you know it takes time and energy from getting something you do or might want.

Lil has some good advise and is a kind soul. I know it is difficult to let go of some things and learn new ways, but try. Sometimes it takes many many attempts to change or feel the benefits of change, so keep trying things till you find something that works for you.

Lou

I did get one flying lesson.

[Cobra]

Chuck,

I too can understand your anger over losing your dream, but I also believe in Karma and that things happen for a reason. I don’t know what the reasons are for your situation, but I do know you have something to learn from it. Sure you had a hard disappointment, you lost the opportunity cost of that dream career, but there are many of us who have regrets too. Focusing on lost opportunity will not bring back the past. It will put you in a victim role however.

Better to be thankful for what you do have. My co-worker sitting next to me has a newly wed daughter (well about two years now). They have just had their first baby. The H was diagnosed with cancer a year or so ago, did some radiation and a little chemo, enough to get over the cancer at the time. He did not want to do the follow-up chemo since it made him so sick. He seems to have a major victim mentality, preferring to complain and whine rather than fight. I am not trying to sound insensitive to cancer, but those are his cards and he had to do the best he could (I won’t speculate on his karma, though I have an idea). Now the cancer has come roaring back, spread throughout his body, even into his brain, and it is only a matter of time. I don’t think he is even 30 years old yet. The baby is only a few months old. They have a house but neither is working right now, living off his long term disability, and just waiting for him to pass on. She will then move back home and raise her baby with her parents, my co-worker.

I have other stories of hardship, and I’m sure others on this board do to. Life is hard and unfair, no doubt. So you couldn’t be a pilot. So you might have a heart attack. I understand. But living your days in anger and resentment is a total waste! Look back on the time you’ve wasted so far. What have you got to show for it. Find something else you can be passionate about. IT doesn’t have to be your career. It could be a hobby, maybe some sport, maybe even your kids and wife! What are you going to do for tomorrow?

[cac4]

well...ya know...this is why I don't often bring it up. Its just what I said earlier. people don't get it...they can't. No pilot would ever suggest that it could ever in a million years be replaced by some other "hobby" or "sport". In fact, more than one who has heard the story has said, "I would kill myself if that happened to me". best to just leave it at that.

yeah, I'm sure there's worse things that could happen. "life is hard and unfair, no doubt" sure is, and sometimes, it "just happens". and thats all I meant to illustrate with that little bit of history, in response to the suggestion that I stop letting life "just happen" to me. well, it does "just happen", sometimes.

[Cobra]

Chuck,

So we don’t get how devastating it was for you to loose your dream. So what??? What does our perception of the importance of your dream have to do with you? You are still deflecting and avoiding your responsibility in setting your own direction and making the best of what you’ve got. Stop trying to dodge this and find someone to make it better for you. No one is going to do that. Not your parents, not your wife, no one. So drop the “life just happens,” woe is me, the poor victim way of stinkin’ thinkin’. The longer you keep that up the more your wife will draw away from you. It is just another twist on avoidance.

Do you have it in you to become an inspiration to your family by becoming a success in some other way? Can you empower yourself enough to feel good about another career? That will mean letting go of your anger and resentment. When you do this, you will lose the long trained feeling of control you have over others, control by staying angry, control by keeping everyone else from getting too close, control in setting your own terms of what the relationship will be – cold and distant. That is scary, isn’t it? Are you sure you aren’t holding onto to this lost fantasy to fuel the anger that creates this security blanket?