I'm not sure if I have ever heard the song but along with 'Just is.' comes My Give-a-Damn's Broke. This realization that not placing value on his words anymore than some dude you find at the bus stop, not personalizing them if you will places an untold amount of distance in a relationship where the only one of the 5LL that are 'illegal' outside the relationship is gone. UHM? No wonder he couldn't answer my "why did you marry me?" question. No wonder CAC4 is having difficulties.
What bond is there? Ok, for sentimental reasons we'll decide to work together to go to one another's Dr's appointments. I'll be the scrub woman and H the handy man. If this were an ofice relationship, who knows, things may grow out of the forced togetherness. But what kind of partnership can be developed with goals dreams and desires can be now? Maybe, Look if I die in the rocking chair, won't you bury the chair with me, cuz that's how it just is? Gives you that sence of togetherness and warmth doesn't it?
There's another song something about It's Hard to Kiss the Lips at Night that Yell at You All Day Long. Did anyone think that trying to insert emotion or comedy or SOMETHING may have been the last desperate attempt for a passionate engagement-- ANYTHING emotional?
With Just is (and ED/no touch), all bonds that differentiate a partner from any other dude Just aren't.
Pity me that the heart is slow to learn
What the swift mind beholds at every turn.
Edna St. Vincent Millay
I realize I'm babbling...but dang it all! No wonder I have this damn identity crisis.--
Am I a mother, just caring blindly?
Am I a sister, someone to chide and suport over shopping descissions?
Am I a daughter, someone to take out to the stores and put on the counter(arm) in a lookie world what I have kinda way?
Am I one of the guys, someone to hang with at sporting events/trade shows?
This language 'soul mate' had this neuvospeak quality to me that was so foreign. Is that the opposite of 'just is'. Or is that 'just is' on happy narcotics?
I can love unconditionally, Lil I can. But not as a wife, as a mother with a child--a child who has ADD, emotional ADD. Emotional support just isn't a cup of coffee.
What's there for me in this not quite empty nest?
Pity me that the heart is slow to learn
What the swift mind beholds at every turn.
Edna St. Vincent Millay
I hate to keep responding with all the quotes, as it makes each post so long and harder to read, but there is so much information going back and forth that needs clarification...so many specific questions that need answering. so here goes...
I sense a real shift in your tone in this post and I’m wondering why. You started off on my thread with a rather terse, sarcastic sound, frustrated about something in your marriage which needed to be fixed and complaining about your wife “flying off the handle.” Now you seem to backtracking on some of that, at least the tone. Why?
could be a few things. 1) you're getting through to me. 2) I've been gettin' some, which is sure to soften my view. 3) sometimes its hard to get a point across in the message board format, especially with subject matter that is so complex, and I think I may have given the impression of things being worse than they really are. Of course, when I started this discussion, we were in a dark stage of our typical pattern, and that has changed drastically in the last week and a half. We've (W and I) have been having a similar discussion over the last few days, and have independantly reached some of the same conclusions. Pretty wild, eh?? I wanted to maintain the discussion as if none of this had occured, because it is a repeating pattern, and the only way to avoid regression into that pattern is to understand it.
Is there an issue in your marriage that needs to be fixed or not? ...Is there a problem with your wife or with your in-laws? If you fight so little, why were you so hot under the collar about her “flying off the handle” in your earlier posts?
yeah, look at the title of this forum. "SSM". Attempts to communicate to solve the problem by which I am most bothered result in the "flying off the handle". I only mentioned the in-laws in response to you bringing up the point that we learn from our parents. I learned from mine; she, from hers.
I get the sense that maybe you are pulling into your shell a little right here in cyberspace. I can understand that you don’t like confrontation. I hate it too. But I am also getting the impression the intimidation you and your mother experienced from your father has made you fearful, or at least not accustomed to, standing up for yourself. I can see how the only thing you could learn from your father was to assert yourself by being a bully. But that is so abhorrent I am sure it turned you off and you took a more pacifist route, identifying more with your mother. Is this any where close?
dead on.
Sounds like more avoidance of confrontation to me, lack of asserting yourself, holding back on your power, then blaming the others because you feel like a victim. pretty much. except I don't feel as though I'm "blaming" anyone. I feel like a victim because I don't understand where its coming from, or see how to fix it. One other thing, I think your logical way of thinking, seeing things that “just are” is all a way of rationalizing in your mind that there is nothing you can do. I don’t believe anyone on this board believes that, but you seem to have convinced yourself that this is true. I think it is just to avoid the fear you feel in confronting others. That is COMPLETELY understandable because of your father, but you are still the one to fix it. So maybe your childhood fear has caused you to take on this logical way of thinking in order to avoid the pain of feeling emotions, and the disconnect that creates with other people is driving your wife crazy. Do you think? yes. but also, its possible that I'm just a logical person, and not prone to searching out deeper meanings of every result to every action. At least on the surface, this is how I cope with people...the same way I would cope with "things". A hot stove, for example. I touched a hot stove once, when I was a kid. I learned right quick not to do that again. I didn't get mad at the stove; I didn't resent or "blame" it; its a "thing". But even if it wasn't just a "thing", it doesn't much matter in my mind. "when the knob is turned here, don't touch there...at least, not without a pot holder or some other protection, else you'll be sorry." There are some things in life that "just are", and there are things that "just happen". I'm reminded of the alcoholic's prayer: "...grant me the strength to change the things I can, the courage to accept the things I can not, and the wisdom to know the difference". So I'm lacking wisdom, for sure. but the prayer would be alot shorter, if there were no such thing as something that "just is".
What does “b” mean?
in response to your question, "Did your mother a) stand up to protect you or b) did she keep her head down to avoid his wrath and leave you defend yourself?"
Chuck, you are hurting her when you withdraw. You may not realise that is what is happening, you may be doing it simply as a way of protecting yourself, but it hurts her like hell. yes, I am realizing this now. It is a defense mechanism, not meant to hurt, but to protect myself.
Stop comparing your marriage with W's parents. It is the polar opposite of your marriage. You can engage with your W without turning into them.
I'm not afraid of turning into them; as I said to cobra, I only brought it up to explain W's history, in contrast to mine.
Next time an issue arises practice staying in the room. Practice listening to what she has to say, answering with things like "I'm sorry to hear that", "I hadn't really looked at it from that point of view", "That must make you really <mad/frustrated/tense/whatever>.
I don't generally "leave the room". (house has a rather open floor plan; there's no place to go!). I hide behind the newspaper. The thing thats been getting to me lately is the endless complaining. every night when I walk through the door, its time for the nightly "airing of the grievances". The "grievances" that really get to me are all things over which I have some control, influence, or can affect. I'm not talking about "pick up your socks" kind of stuff. I'm talking about complaints about all of her burdens. the "chores"...laundry, (that I create) cooking, (which I consume), the house (which I built), the finances, or lack thereof (which I am charged with providing)...do you see? she can complain about "bad hair", and that doesn't bother me, beyond knowing that the one I love is unhappy about something. But I don't internalize that sort of thing; I had nothing to do with it. But all the other things say "you have placed a huge burden on me". (Sex is just one more horrible chore...a burden. now, you know I am NOT the only one here who has ever felt that. Its a common theme, repeated over and over by many an HD, in response to LD treatment.) Its compounded by the fact that there is little or nothing I can do about any of these things, and I can't help but be just a tiny bit resentful over the fact that SHE CHOSE this lifestyle, and now I have to take the blame for it.
Ditch comments like "why are you always griping", "I don't see what I'm supposed to do about it", etc. I don't make such comments; I withdraw inward. remember? Thats how her parents would react; I know that this will only inflame the situation, and make it worse.
You are married because you needed a roommate? OK so who decided to kiss who? Who decided to get into bed together? Who decided to make it legal? Stop acting like life just happened to you. It is continuing to just happen to you because you let it, you do not stand and fight you just withdraw.
No, not exactly. It is true, though, that we did not initially move in together purely out of a desire to deepen the relationship. The extenuating circumstances did have a large influence on that decision. maybe it didn't matter, maybe it did. Its a long story for a message board. I only meant to illustrate that ours was not a "typical" courtship. It wasn't the standard hollywood formula of "boy meets girl; girl rejects boy; boy chases girl; girl resists, but then capituates...boy looses girl...boy performs some rediculous and unrealistic romantic gesture to win girl back...fade to black, roll credits". So the common suggestion of "going back to the begining of your relationship, and do "that"" doesn't fit well with us. our courtship was admittedly "lame". we missed out on stuff. we were just friends for quite some time before we became romantically involved. We met in college. She was a senior; I was a freshman. can you imagine how that might impact the early part of our relationship? I lower than the the dirt under her shoes. This was a very slow process, indeed. she was out in the world, long before we became "romantic", and I remember a time when she told me, flat out, how she would *never* have anything to do with anyone like me, ever again. she'd had enough of "college" boyfriends...anyway... "who kissed who?" I honestly dont' remember; we were drunk at a party.
so its not that I'm living like "life just happened to me". I'm just expressing that I had little control over some aspects of it. one event that had a profound impact on my life did very much indeed "just happen" to me. had nothing to do with W, but it probably does affect the way I see alot of things. The career in which I had my entire identity wrapped up, was taken away from me by the diagnosis of a medical problem...a congenital heart defect. I'd spent my entire youth preparing to be a military pilot. I could fly a plane before I could drive a car. I'd spent my education on attaining this goal...its highly competative. The us Navy was accepting about 300 people a year into the program. I was eventually selected...then diagnosed. then cast aside. There are many other avenues for becoming a pilot, (plans b, and c), but this diagnosis wiped them all off the table. the government won't allow me to do it, not for the military, or anyone else...not even for fun. all I had invested was destroyed, by something no one "did" and no one could have anticipated. so yeah, that "just happened" to me. oh, and I might just drop dead at any time, because that's what odd-ball hearts like mine do. I care much less about that than I care about flying.
anyway, enough of that. I read the article. its quite alarming. this jumped right out at me:
we know that distressed couples settle into rigid interaction patterns. Perhaps the most distressed pattern is that of the disappointed, angry, blaming wife demanding contact from a man who withdraws. Couples can stay stuck in this for years. We know from the research of John Gottman that this is a sure killer of marriages.
Quote: The career in which I had my entire identity wrapped up, was taken away from me by the diagnosis of a medical problem...a congenital heart defect. I'd spent my entire youth preparing to be a military pilot. I could fly a plane before I could drive a car. I'd spent my education on attaining this goal...its highly competative. The us Navy was accepting about 300 people a year into the program. I was eventually selected...
Chuck, this is HUGE... I'm so sorry your health prevented you from attaining your dream. Damn. Have you really let yourself be angry about this and also to grieve over it? Or are you telling yourself that it doesn't matter and it's no big deal? It's a very big deal. This is huge... really. (((((Chuck)))))
My late H was a helicopter pilot in VietNam (medivac) and when he came back he was diagnosed with diabetes. He was not permitted to fly anymore (not that he wanted to go back THERE!), and the rest of his life (~30 years) was spent coping with that progressive disease, which eventually killed him.
My father also wanted to be a Navy pilot in WWII, and he was accepted into the program. He was very smart. But he needed a birth certificate, and in the little county on the Texas-Arkansas border where he came from, they didn't do birth certificates in 1925. By the time he got a letter testifying to his birth date, it was too late. He spent the rest of his life bitter and angry, and I'm sure he never attributed it to that. But when he wrote about it when he was in his 60's a big light bulb went on over MY head.
And the way you describe how you and your W got together is about the most unromantic thing I ever heard. It's almost as unromantic as my bf coming to be drunk every night for the first two years of our R...
Some lousy things happened to you that you had no control over. But you still have choices. For one thing, you have the choice whether to let these things determine WHO you are now. You have the choice to stay in the marriage or not. You have the choice to take care of your health or not. You have the choice to stop defining your life by what happens or has happened OUTSIDE of you.
At some point you and your W each made the choice to be in this M. Is that still a viable choice? Do you still want to be there? Does she? Don't live the rest of your life in the passive voice. Sh*t happens. You were dealt some bad cards... not the worst ones in the deck... but you've had obstacles.
What do you want to do with the REST of your life?
______________
Edited to add: It just occurred to me that you and cobra have a lot in common. Cobra and his wife also did not start out in a blaze of romance. (Maybe you've already told him this, cobra.) They got married because cobra's GF (soon to be wife) got pregnant.
So the question is, can you start from no love and no romance and build a solid, emotionally and physically satisfying relationship? I dunno... Dang, it's hard enough when you start out with romance, let alone when you start out with none...
That will lead to sleepless nights. So many times I've "bucked up and taken it" (no not physical but the I say xyz type thing.)-- I felt myself making 'victim' status. I guess appreciation may be the real goal. 5LL and all. I've made it this far, sleepless nights of introspection and all.
First let me introduce the 3rd memember of this post--Dog9, 105lbs.
Recently we determined that 9 years ago H didn't want the dog. Talk about communication! It's his big, macho dog! D can't even understand that one. So I've been working with the 9 year old who seems to have about as much arthritis as we do. H doesn't want to walk him, especially it seems since his castration last year in an effort to shrink his prostate. You don't think the two---? Have I just over thought this? Oh he gets outside for whatever but no stretching and running. I think our walks have helped the dog and me!
Now, there are little things I refer to as 'You pick on me'(I'm sure this started while trying to engage him in a discussion about his EDand related insecurities.) This morning was prime. I'm having some help with wall washing today, H agreed to take the dog dnstairs. We have a walk out b'ment, so I suggested he take the dog around the outside to avoid the stairs and help the dog out on a more gradual, better footing slope. I get this disgusted/infurriated look on his face.
M: What's that look all about? H: Its going to lead to an argument. M: NO, what was that expression all about! H: There you go again, critisising what I'm doing. I have always taken the dog dn the stairs. M: Didn't you say he got stuck on the stairs? H: Not physically stuck like the nails under things. M: So why don't you think that outside would be better? H: You always pick on me. (those weren't his words but atm I don't remember, its a reoccuring theme) M: Wha? I'm not picking on you. I'm not thinking of you here. The damn dog can't walk. I'm thinking of making it easier on him. Thats all. You have no fault in this.
There are so many little things like this. I haven't the strength to help him and me at the same time. He's not my 'job' but as partner aren't we suposed to be there for them? On the other hand, is this too much facilitating and I need to 'just be' and keep on challenging. Not challenging him but allowing him to challenge himself. This is so taxing on me and consuming. I should have done things differently, but didn't. Coming to grips with the now what's is where I'm stuck.
Pity me that the heart is slow to learn
What the swift mind beholds at every turn.
Edna St. Vincent Millay
Quote: Chuck, this is HUGE... I'm so sorry your health prevented you from attaining your dream. Damn. Have you really let yourself be angry about this and also to grieve over it? Or are you telling yourself that it doesn't matter and it's no big deal? It's a very big deal. This is huge... really. (((((Chuck)))))
no, I never told myself or anyone else that it wasn't a big deal. probably the opposite. *I* know its a huge deal, but I figure that most other people just wouldn't get it. Anyone who doesn't have what we pilots refer to as "the bug". once you get it, there's no getting rid of it, and no one that doesn't have it can quite understand it. Your late H would understand...even if he didn't have the bug himself (lots of people in war-time kind of "fall into" aviation...they didn't necessarily seek it out. many of them just hang it up when their hitch is over, and never miss it or look back) but he knew people that did. And pretty much the same thing happened to him. except, he at least got to "the top", if only for a short time. anyhow, yeah, W says I didn't completely "grieve" this loss. sure, I was angry...still am. again, it "just is", and there's nothing I can do about it. there isn't a day that goes by that I don't think about it.
Quote: And the way you describe how you and your W got together is about the most unromantic thing I ever heard. It's almost as unromantic as my bf coming to be drunk every night for the first two years of our R...
well, its not as bad as all that. we just grew together, slowly...not much that can be described as "whirlwind", but so what? it just wasn't "typical". neither are "we".
Quote: ... For one thing, you have the choice whether to let these things determine WHO you are now.
That IS who I am now. the result of my experience...a flightless bird, with clipped wings. Thats never going to change. my marriage will be fine. we've made great progress in the last couple of weeks, recognizing some of these destructive patterns.
No wonder I have this damn identity crisis.-- 
