Quote: I think the question was: "Is there ever a time when you feel that you can let your guard down with your wife?"
I'm not ever consciously aware that I'm being "guarded"...thats the thing. either I bury things so deeply, and so efficiently, that I'm not even aware of it, or I'm just not that "deep".
Was there ever any abuse or violence in your childhood, including fighting or anything else that might be considered dysfunctional? By abuse I mean all kinds, physical, sexual or emotional, including coming from a high acheiving family in which kids are expected to hold to very high standards. Anything like that? (You never said anything about your dad.)
Was there ever any abuse or violence in your childhood, including fighting or anything else that might be considered dysfunctional? By abuse I mean all kinds, physical, sexual or emotional, including coming from a high acheiving family in which kids are expected to hold to very high standards. Anything like that? (You never said anything about your dad.)
oh, yeah..."dysfunctional", for sure. mostly emotional...not the others. I wouldn't say that we had super "high standards", but what standards there were, I did not (and apparently, still do not) meet.
as far as our "courtship"...we met in college, and were just friends for a long time before we became romantically involved...which evolved very slowly. it wasn't your typical "pursuit". we'd been "dating" (if you want to call it that; there was no money for "dates"; I could barely pay my rent, as a starving college student!) for about 8 months when my roommate moved out...I needed a replacement...W needed to get away from her parents. (she was done w/ school at this point, had a real job, etc...she was several years ahead of me in school...3 years older). So she moved in, and we've been together ever since. (20 years). a couple years later, we made it legal. But there wasn't ever any of that typical "pursuer/persue-ee" kind of thing, that people complain that it "disappeared as soon as they were married". we were always this boring!
OK, now I’m getting the picture. I’ve got a building full of engineers where I work. I also have all accountants in my department. Logic to the hilt. Many of them are shut down emotionally, many think they are “real” men but are really hiding behind a mask.
You people keep saying stuff like "the glass is half full/empty"...I say, "the 8oz vessel contains 4oz of fluid." its not negative, its not positive, it just IS.
This is easy logic, meant to avoid confronting self doubt and the anxiety that brings. Even in the engineering world, there are few hard and fast answers. Assumptions are made all the time. But we are not dealing with equations, are we? We are dealing with emotions and you answer your own question.
When your wife “flies off the handle” or you hear her parents screaming, why do you want to curl up into a ball? I am guessing you interpret that as a scary situation. It creates anxiety in you, right? You want to get away. You might say that glass is half empty. I might say that glass is half full, because the people are engaging and staying in the fight until a resolution can be reached. You could even argue there is comfort in the fighting.
My point is that the half full/half empty argument is based on you emotional state – fear or ecstasy, happy or sad, manic or depressed. To say the glass “just is” is to say the fighting “just is.” So why do you have an emotional reaction?
that seems to be a contradiction, to me. "walking on eggshells" is avoidance; manipulation requires some positive action to generate a response, which I am most certainly NOT doing.
Are you sure about this? Again, your statement is made from YOUR point of view only. Read up on verbal abuse and you will see that not communicating, with holding information, invoking the silent treatment, are all forms of abuse. To YOU they might not be since the silence would be comforting to you. But for someone like your wife who feels anxious when she does not get affirmative feedback, the silence can FEEL like manipulation. In her mind, she knows you have a choice – to speak up and express yourself or not. When you do not, she also knows you have made a choice not to, and since she also knows that you know the silence scares her, she assumes (incorrectly) that you do it to passive aggressively attack or manipulate. Can you see this?
I learned to communicate (or "not communicate) from my parents. I am my mother; w is my father. my father rants and raves...mom ignores. sick, isn't it?
So you dad was the macho man, the man’s man, the bully. I am guessing he yelled plenty at you too. Did your mother stand up to protect you or did she keep her head down to avoid his wrath and leave you defend yourself? How did you feel about that? Were you scared or did it not bother you because that was just how life was?
By pure coincidence, I spoke with someone this weekend with a situation VERY similar to yours. The wife also “flies off the handle” but she told me that there is nothing she hates more than when her H withdraws into his shell and won’t speak to her. It triggers her abandonment fears and she goes off.
I also learned that he had been beaten by his father as a child and his mother would beat him when the father was not home. His mother is now divorced but is extremely codependent and is always sacrificing everything to make her second husband happy. I can only assume she was like this with her first husband. But what I think really hurt my friend’s H is that fact that the only person he could turn to for protection as a child, his mother, beat him to protect herself. So when he reached out for help, i.e., made himself vulnerable, he was beaten. How much greater betrayal can a kid experience?
His reaction now is to withdraw into his shell whenever emotions, good or bad, start to run high. I told my friend that his response was conditioned and out of pure survival. So now, whenever he starts to open up, his instinctive reaction is to shut down again. I do not think he knows he does this. To him, it “just is.” But he is blocking his feelings to prevent the greater pain of betrayal he felt as a child.
His W understands now (I hope) that her screaming for validation and interaction just pushes him away. HE needs to understand that his withdrawing threatens her and makes her push even harder to avoid the feeling of abandonment she experienced as a kid. Do you see how this dynamic works?
I know that trying to confront someone that is "flying off the handle" by doing the same thing in response, is an exercise in futility. It only makes things worse.
Do you see why this statement can be false? It is based on assumptions only, assumptions purely from YOUR past experience, not anyone else. To me, this screams of a lack of empathy. You are having a problem putting yourself into someone else’s shoes. A lack of empathy comes from a need to protect yourself as a child. You learn that no one will serve your needs or address your fears. The only one who can comfort you is you. So all consideration of other’s feelings are ignored, as your feelings have been ignored. This is the basis of the narcissistic family setting I have been discussing and the heart of adult attachment disorder.
You should consider a therapist you can help you deal with your FOO issues, to confront your hurt, address the repressed anger and resent that you have and get in touch with your feelings.
Quote: ...When your wife “flies off the handle” or you hear her parents screaming, why do you want to curl up into a ball? I am guessing you interpret that as a scary situation. It creates anxiety in you, right? You want to get away. You might say that glass is half empty. I might say that glass is half full, because the people are engaging and staying in the fight until a resolution can be reached. You could even argue there is comfort in the fighting.
maybe there's comfort in it for them, but there ain't for me. Yeah, I'm probably thrown back to my childhood, and it makes me very uncomfortable. But there is no "resolution"...its been going on for nearly 50 years, and it isn't resolved yet. constant, ongoing bickering, about the most silly things. I swear, they are like George Costanza's parents (from "Seinfeld"). but anyway...I also just want to clear up the "flying off the handle" stuff...the phrase has been repeated I think too many times, and may be giving the wrong impression of W. She has a temper, yes. but we really argue very seldomly. She's sensitive...grumpy quite a bit. but we don't "fight" much. we generally live a very quiet existance, so when the in-laws are in town, and start in...its such a stark contrast, i think it amplifies its effect. but anyway...
Quote: ...To say the glass “just is” is to say the fighting “just is.” So why do you have an emotional reaction?
. see above. but again, if you heard these fights, you'd see that they 'just are'.
Quote: that seems to be a contradiction, to me. "walking on eggshells" is avoidance; manipulation requires some positive action to generate a response, which I am most certainly NOT doing.
Are you sure about this? Again, your statement is made from YOUR point of view only. Read up on verbal abuse and you will see that not communicating, with holding information, invoking the silent treatment, are all forms of abuse. To YOU they might not be since the silence would be comforting to you. But for someone like your wife who feels anxious when she does not get affirmative feedback, the silence can FEEL like manipulation. In her mind, she knows you have a choice – to speak up and express yourself or not. When you do not, she also knows you have made a choice not to, and since she also knows that you know the silence scares her, she assumes (incorrectly) that you do it to passive aggressively attack or manipulate. Can you see this?
yes, I'm sure. I'm not doing anything intentionally. Its not that I'm "witholding" so much as not freely and spontaneously volunteering. I can answer a direct question, although, some need to be answered carefully. ("does this dress make me look fat?" kind of stuff...).
Quote:
So you dad was the macho man, the man’s man, the bully. bully-ish, yes. I am guessing he yelled plenty at you too. yep. Did your mother stand up to protect you or did she keep her head down to avoid his wrath and leave you defend yourself? "b"... How did you feel about that? Were you scared or did it not bother you because that was just how life was? It scared me...but its just how life was.
Quote: By pure coincidence, I spoke with someone this weekend with a situation VERY similar to yours....
wow. that is interesting. Sounds alot worse than my situation was, but very similar.
Quote:
I know that trying to confront someone that is "flying off the handle" by doing the same thing in response, is an exercise in futility. It only makes things worse.
Do you see why this statement can be false? It is based on assumptions only, assumptions purely from YOUR past experience, not anyone else. To me, this screams of a lack of empathy. You are having a problem putting yourself into someone else’s shoes. A lack of empathy comes from a need to protect yourself as a child. You learn that no one will serve your needs or address your fears. The only one who can comfort you is you. So all consideration of other’s feelings are ignored, as your feelings have been ignored. This is the basis of the narcissistic family setting I have been discussing and the heart of adult attachment disorder.
well, I can see what you're saying in all of this, but I think I'm speaking more along practical lines, here, at least IRT jumping into one of these arguments. again, if you heard them...you'd see. its like an endless ping-pong match from hell. And in our (mine and w's) case, its more along the lines of her grousing about whatever. If I respond, I get yelled at for trying to "fix" things, or being patronizing. "smile and nod"...but not too much! complaining. that is another W family dynamic. endless complaining. why does that bother me so much?
Quote: You should consider a therapist you can help you deal with your FOO issues, to confront your hurt, address the repressed anger and resent that you have and get in touch with your feelings.
why do I need to do that, when I've got you?
seriously, though. very interesting things to think about. but about the FOO...what can you do about it? its ancient history. it is just the way it was. so...now what?
Quote: She has a temper, yes. but we really argue very seldomly. She's sensitive...grumpy quite a bit. but we don't "fight" much. we generally live a very quiet existance,
This is toxic. Cobra has tried to explain why. I can only say that its like solitary confindment. It's the strangest feeling of being all a lone in a room where the one you love is sitting within 8 feet, but not with you.
Its like waving and never being seen. Its as if you would be more complete to be a lone than lonely but together. So hollow.
sorry, enough...
Pity me that the heart is slow to learn
What the swift mind beholds at every turn.
Edna St. Vincent Millay
I sense a real shift in your tone in this post and I’m wondering why. You started off on my thread with a rather terse, sarcastic sound, frustrated about something in your marriage which needed to be fixed and complaining about your wife “flying off the handle.” Now you seem to backtracking on some of that, at least the tone. Why?
Is there an issue in your marriage that needs to be fixed or not? Now you say ”She has a temper, yes. but we really argue very seldomly. She's sensitive...grumpy quite a bit. but we don't "fight" much. we generally live a very quiet existance,…” Is there a problem with your wife or with your in-laws? If you fight so little, why were you so hot under the collar about her “flying off the handle” in your earlier posts?
I get the sense that maybe you are pulling into your shell a little right here in cyberspace. I can understand that you don’t like confrontation. I hate it too. But I am also getting the impression the intimidation you and your mother experienced from your father has made you fearful, or at least not accustomed to, standing up for yourself. I can see how the only thing you could learn from your father was to assert yourself by being a bully. But that is so abhorrent I am sure it turned you off and you took a more pacifist route, identifying more with your mother. Is this any where close?
If so, did you ever learn how to assert yourself, to set firm boundaries? I tend to doubt it since your mother had no boundaries whatsoever. She just absorbed abuse and kept a low profile. I remember doing a lot of that as a kid. Trying to keep the peace, worried when the next fight would erupt and getting mad at my younger brothers because they might do something to spark tension and trigger a fight. But that in itself can trigger a fight. Its like you can’t win. It sucks the life and happiness right out of you. You go into survival mode. Learning about proper boundaries is the last thing on your mind.
I hope your mother gave you comfort when your dad got angry. But I wonder if she ever taught you to assert yourself, at least with your friends? If you just modeled her behavior, then maybe you’ve got some anxiety with your wife and her family’s displays of anger, but frustration with yourself in not feeling secure enough to set the boundaries, or resentful that you should even have to do so. Instead you draw into your shell, get moody and fume about their dysfunction. Have you ever stood up to them and told them that you do not intend to listen to their bickering, and if they do it in your house they must leave?
yes, I'm sure. I'm not doing anything intentionally. Its not that I'm "witholding" so much as not freely and spontaneously volunteering. I can answer a direct question, although, some need to be answered carefully. ("does this dress make me look fat?" kind of stuff...).
Sounds like more avoidance of confrontation to me, lack of asserting yourself, holding back on your power, then blaming the others because you feel like a victim. One other thing, I think your logical way of thinking, seeing things that “just are” is all a way of rationalizing in your mind that there is nothing you can do. I don’t believe anyone on this board believes that, but you seem to have convinced yourself that this is true. I think it is just to avoid the fear you feel in confronting others. That is COMPLETELY understandable because of your father, but you are still the one to fix it. So maybe your childhood fear has caused you to take on this logical way of thinking in order to avoid the pain of feeling emotions, and the disconnect that creates with other people is driving your wife crazy. Do you think?
Did your mother stand up to protect you or did she keep her head down to avoid his wrath and leave you defend yourself? "b"...
What does “b” mean?
It scared me...but its just how life was.
I rest my case….
If I respond, I get yelled at for trying to "fix" things, or being patronizing. "smile and nod"...but not too much! complaining. that is another W family dynamic. endless complaining. why does that bother me so much?
Question already answered.
seriously, though. very interesting things to think about. but about the FOO...what can you do about it? its ancient history. it is just the way it was. so...now what?
I hope the answer to this is becoming obvious. You earlier said that your wife claims you do not know your own emotions. You have stated several times that you don’t know what she is talking about, or what we are talking about concerning anger and resentment. You know there is a problem but you have no idea how to fix it. In fact, you can’t even begin to put your finger on what the problem is or how it originates. So how can you fix it, then work through it emotionally to stop the ill effects on your actions and your marriage?
Understanding your FOO is not to change anything in the past. It is to stop the continuing dysfunction from the past. That means you have to know what it is you have to fix. Only then can you understand how you are affecting others and driving them away.
Its like waving and never being seen. Its as if you would be more complete to be a lone than lonely but together
Exactly.
Chuck, you are hurting her when you withdraw. You may not realise that is what is happening, you may be doing it simply as a way of protecting yourself, but it hurts her like hell.
Stop comparing your marriage with W's parents. It is the polar opposite of your marriage. You can engage with your W without turning into them.
Next time an issue arises practice staying in the room. Practice listening to what she has to say, answering with things like "I'm sorry to hear that", "I hadn't really looked at it from that point of view", "That must make you really <mad/frustrated/tense/whatever>.
Ditch comments like "why are you always griping", "I don't see what I'm supposed to do about it", etc.
What you perceive as your W's attacks may not be intended as attacks at all. They may be attacks on your sense of control but they are not attacks on you.
Your M sounds scarily like mine. Or like mine was, now it is worse.
You are married because you needed a roommate? OK so who decided to kiss who? Who decided to get into bed together? Who decided to make it legal? Stop acting like life just happened to you. It is continuing to just happen to you because you let it, you do not stand and fight you just withdraw.
You can make this marriage work, but you have to be the one to do it. I'll bet your W is more than ready to go along with you, yes she will spill out 20 years worth of bottled up frustrations but that will pass. It is no good just keeping your head down you've tried that - it doesn't work.
I've been having a great deal of inuendo problems in speach. For example:
There is a wash in a path to one of the paddocks. With walkie-talkies H calls out the fact that the wash is worse since today's rain. I'm the one that handles the front end loader on the tractor better. So-- I get this guilt trip for not repairing it this past week-end.
But it JUST WAS! The wash is worse.
I don't know why it was said. It just is.
I realize this was not your intent when it was said; but, its a way it can be sucessfully used.
Pity me that the heart is slow to learn
What the swift mind beholds at every turn.
Edna St. Vincent Millay
