Attitude leads to Behaivior, Behaivior Leads to At

[nscare]

ODDLY YOU WOULD SAY THAT...MY H HAS A BEST FRIEND THAT WORKS WITH AND CALLS ON A DAILY BASIS....THEY DON'T CALL FROM HOME, FROM CELL PHONE OUTSIDE THE HOUSE. ALSO THEY CALL ON WAY TO WORK AND HOME FROM WORK....OF COURSE THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR M. CAN NOT EFFECT IT WHAT SOEVER. SO HOW CAN THIS BE?

[nscare]

Sorry,,,,,or SORRY

[blackfoot]

Thanks Chrissy, for your comments.

Stop calling my naive.
you just had to get that in their one more time.


LFL,

BUT your aloofness, jealousy, and macho bs will get in the way everytime. You didn't fight for her, bf.

I dont have jealousy, pretty much at ever. I did when A started, but those emotions are there for a reason.

Aloofness? Do you think I am so attractive, attraction would last over a 8 year R that my x and I would have a great sex life with no EC? WOW, thanks. I am being ridiculous to prove a point. I was not aloof, untill I detached.

I dont consider myself aloof even on this BB. I do have my ideas, and am indifferent to the 'tests' that result here by both men and women as a result of acting out these ideas at the same time. It just reproves them. That isnt aloof thats confidance.

Macho BS? I dont know one time I have BS'ed here.

However, what have you really learned from this experience that will make you more successful in the next R/M, especially if you end up having children with the next one? Excellent question.
Do not let OM live with me.

Not quite sure what to do when I face another insecurity. Women want EC, but are unattracted by insecurity. kind of a conundrum. I am a man so do need cave during low times.

You failed the test. It was a brutal test but you were not up for the challenge

Adultery is not a test.
Affair is not a test. They are dissolution of marriage contract. EVERY civilization and religion agrees with this. Many of them quite vociferously. our societys acceptance and tolerance of this behavior says loads. Choosing to continue on in rift R is offended spouses choice, and often driven by need, instead of choice. Attempting to do so and forgivness is positive and healthy if both parties do their part in working at it.
lay off the macho stuff a touch, open yourself up to your emotions, even the horrible ones, stop comparing yourself to others (and don't tell me you don't because I know that you do), work on the self-esteem issues (yes, I mean that), be proud of who you are but not overly cocky, admit your faults and mistakes (especially to the woman in your life).

To validate you.
no, yes, maybe( how else can I self improve?), I dont currently have any, I am, and I do. Thanks for that.

oh yeah You didn't fight for her, bf if a male has value to his SO, he doesnt need to 'fight' for her. A woman seeking this is insecure and getting something from trying to emotionally juice him in this way. Short term it is very effective on most people,(which is why I am not dating untill after POP.) but long term very acidic to the R/M. She is not struggling against her tendancies or holding up her side of the marital 'bargain', vows. Some people try to work on themselves, others do 'whatever it takes, or works'.

Chrissy and LFL, how convienant that its pumpkin season, and there are so many ways to put pumpkin in a sentence right now.
LOL.

more to LFL,

the LFL/BF love affair will never come to fruition
I know this is joking. I can handle some of this activity, because it is a demonstration of being confidant, and humorous. Too much makes me very uneasy. It will cause me to disappear or stop replying to interactions with a married individual if it happens to much or seems inappropriate to me. Thanks for the validation, you have the potential to be fine wine also.

onwards and upwards

I dont see how I have come off as a 'player' anywhere on this BB. I havent heard that from anywhere else. My x did not think I was a player, and a few of my associates are most definitely, she didnt like it. I can see some similarities with me and Karens/H, I didnt attend to her insecurities (different kinds), thought they were hers to deal with. My x was very low maintenace that way also. Untill she wasnt.

As for being attracted to strong women, that doesnt mean they are dominant. If the man is strong and she trusts him, she will stop her testing. Some women choose to stop or fight this tendancy to do their part in having a healthy R.

Thank you for confirming my comments to Cobra.
you admit that women don't like it, don't trust it, etc yet also state too bad, that's how I am so live with it. Hmmm. That spells trouble

No I didnt state 'too bad'. You misinterpret. I said if you keep up being strong long enough for them to trust that it is real, the testing will die down, females will trust, respect, become attracted, feel safe, etc. If you pass the tests of being strong. Which is only part of being attractive.

IF they never trust you, the strength for whatever reason (previous abuse, entrenched behavior), if you waffle back and forth if you have body language that is counter to your words,if your actions are counter (filing for divorce while claiming to not want one for example), it will stay amped up to a unpleasant level for the man and she will never have respect or attraction. Do not attribute negative connotations to my ideas. I do care,(which you claim to know) I do try to do the right thing. Saying it doesnt make it so, but I feel I have tried to demonstrate it here.


Can't you just be more macho-sincere instead of macho-cocky? I am actully Cocky- sincere. and Humerously- macho. get it right. (You like it stop trying to kill it. next test please. Guys do not say the latter to your W.)

what I wrote was really thread litter you wouldn't have even commented at all. It was, but I dont mind having some fun too. Not harsh, your just a sensitive girl . Thats a good thing. Let your H see it. I am going to keep flipping things back on you, I hope you take a deeper look when I do.

[blackfoot]

USSWEDE,

Well I like the swedish, in particular those 6' plus, blonde haired, blue eyed goddeses. Or was that Iceland...
of course I also like the dark haired, doe eyed girls in Ibiza. Wait am I coming off as a player???? (never been any of these places actually just some inside jokes about height and hair color around here.)

seriously Thanks for your input. I agreed with some things and enjoyed some things you said.

People make mistakes and no one is perfect. I see you seeking perfection in others at the same level that you seek it in yourself without understanding that a large portion of love is about accepting the differences and relishing them.

I agree with the accepting, and relishing. I relished them. I saw how we were yin and yang. I have oftern talked about accepting here. LYNILWY happens to everyone eventually. The only way to overcome it is with changing our perceptions and/or working on our spouses needs. That is all we have control over, well that and actions.

Which bring me to x she did neither.

I see you as a fairly selfish, narcisstic person. Harsh? Maybe, but the "if you want to play with someone elses toys I'm taking mine home" and running away mentality doesn't sound much like a grown up.

well your the second to call me narcisstic, its not uncommon given my projected personality coming from men though, but if Cobra still feels this way I may check it out further. I just dont feel it though.

As for selfish, x was the one who called herself selfish repeatedly during/after affair. Called me things, but she never called me selfish. So I am going to have to differ. I am a giver, but if you give to much in the wrong was as a man, women lose respect and attraction.

some other differs, never ran away, if I cut her off during affair that is my perogitive, read marriagebuilders. See my previous post for reasons.

People make mistakes. Sometimes, really, really bad ones. Grown ups are able to accept that and move towards positive solutions
This goes both ways dontcha think? and as for affair do you recommend I turn the cheek 77 times also? I made really bad ones. said so. got the boot anyways.

front of bravado ?? I was in a lot of pain. sometimes a wave will still hit me.

Forgiveness means that you are willing to work through the difficulty on her terms as well as your own

No it doesnt. Definition-- to excuse or pardon wrongdoing or one who is guilty of wrongdoing.
Forgiveness is actually something you do internally to grant yourself peace more so then for others. I dont really have the ability to pardon anyone other then things done towards me.

attempts at connection are spurned because she doesn't do it just your way. not just my way. the way it is suggested in countless books on the subject. books we covered together during our attempted reconcil. She knows. as for last feeble attempt it came 2 days after filing for D.

As I say to the everyone ignore the words, which there were none in reality, look at the actions. I am not going to make a second go of some late night hot sweat, or emotional fall out after some song, or photograph jars a memory. That is not a decision.

Pride has it's uses, but it also limits the your ability to share with others and for them to share with you
yes pride.... said much about it in my sitch already. Mein ego, and heir shame.

Your lack of ability to reconcile your differences doesn't bode well for future relationships I think you meant to say OUR not YOUR. Our as in me and hers. Do I come off as a conflict avoider? LOL.

Thanks for dropping in, hope that didnt rattle the shields to bad. I took no offense to your post because you directed it at me, it was not inciteful, you were not attempting to get a neg reaction simply for attention from others.
You were straight, said how you felt, with no double speak. How can I be offended by that? I agree with most everything you said about R dynamics, but affairs get white washed for a variety of reasons, to much so IMO. That is not going to sit well with those that have engaged in a affair, or are chasing there WAS out of insecurity/neediness.

[LustForLife]

Aloofness? Do you think I am so attractive, attraction would last over a 8 year R that my x and I would have a great sex life with no EC? WOW, thanks. I am being ridiculous to prove a point. I was not aloof, untill I detached.
I don't know BF. I think you are more aloof than you realize. The whole bringing OM into your home says to me that you were quite aloof to begin with. I think it was Stigmata who brought up the EGO issue. I think your ego will always get in your way and yes, even after an 8 year R with hot sex. I do NOT think you are narcissistic as some have mentioned, but egotistical? Without a doubt.
Do not let OM live with me.
That's a good start.Proximity certainly didn't help but certainly was not the cause.
Adultery is not a test.
Affair is not a test. They are dissolution of marriage contract. EVERY civilization and religion agrees with this. Many of them quite vociferously. our societys acceptance and tolerance of this behavior says loads. You can't tell me this isn't rationalization at its finest. Your defense mechanism is so clinical, so intellectualized. And since when do you worry about what the rest of society is doing.
The test is not the affair but your response to it. And what does all of that say for my situation?
So my H can abandon his family, move out into an apartment with absolutely no discussion with myself or the effect on the kids, but what? I should really make it work with him but you are a MAN so you don't have to put up with that crap? You can have pride but I can't? Hmpf.
I struggle with this every day. It's not easy. But it is still a test.
To validate you.
no, yes, maybe( how else can I self improve?), I dont currently have any, I am, and I do. Thanks for that.
Too cryptic BF. Need translation.
if a male has value to his SO, he doesnt need to 'fight' for her. A woman seeking this is insecure and getting something from trying to emotionally juice him in this way. This will be your kiss of death. Women want to feel needed, loved, cherished. So it's a little hokey and over the top romantic but that's what tends to push our buttons. I am a hopeless romantic but also don't believe that you find the one person and live happily ever after. In fact, don't believe in soul mates, one true loves, any of that stuff. But I am a hopeless romantic in the sense that I believe we can find people in this world that we connect with, emotionally, sexually, etc. When you find that, you should always fight for it. Even 10, 20 years later. I'm still fighting despite all the bs. Guess you just not a hopeless romantic. Big shocker.
Too much makes me very uneasy. It will cause me to disappear or stop replying to interactions with a married individual if it happens to much or seems inappropriate to me. Thanks for the validation, you have the potential to be fine wine also.
The most fascinating part of this paragraph is the fact that I have the potential to make you "very uneasy". Vulnerable? Uncomfortable? Hmmm. Will process. Of course you talk to all married people on here also so you must be referring to.... Got it.
I dont see how I have come off as a 'player' anywhere on this BB Don't play dumb. If you have not stated it outright on THIS BOARD you have implied it and also have stated it elsewhere. I don't appreciate you trying to make me look stupid to boost your own self-rightousness. Very unattractive and not cool. Lay off it. "Can't we all just get along"?
As for being attracted to strong women, that doesnt mean they are dominant. Totally agree.
If the man is strong and she trusts him, she will stop her testing. Some women choose to stop or fight this tendancy to do their part in having a healthy R.
Operative word being TRUST. Also why is it strictly "women" need to fight this tendency? What about you? Are you saying you could never stop the tendency to not trust your ex in order to have a "healthy" R?
I do care,(which you claim to know) I do try to do the right thing. I do know and I believe you.
Not harsh, your just a sensitive girl . Thats a good thing. Let your H see it. I am going to keep flipping things back on you, I hope you take a deeper look when I do. Being sensitive is not always a good thing, BF. But part of that is my "nature", whatcha gonna do? As for taking a deeper look at your responses, I do anyways just don't always get that across in the posts. "Flip" away.

[blackfoot]

I think it was Stigmata who brought up the EGO issue. I think your ego will always get in your way and yes, even after an 8 year R with hot sex.

Actually I have brought it up since day one. Pride goeth before a fall. Its been reaffirmed several times. I did not have an ego just as we were failing. I was insecure. I stopped leading, and being a strong H. I put her on a pedastal. I developed fear after seeing her responding to OM initiations even though she was not conscious of it yet, and pushed her away emotionally as punishment.

She never accused me of aloofness. She berated me for not doing anything if I saw it happening. (she was naive) She berated me for pushing her away, when she had noone else to turn to in new city. She told me she would need me before/when we got there. so many things I know and tell guys here about, ughh this convo is making me ill.... my 'macho' confidance was not the problem, my problem was the same thing I talk to men about here. OK?

I can see how maybe your H seemed aloof, to you. I know you tried very hard before, and after he WA. OK? WA in itself is a killer emotionally. I have had your heaping helping and another (affair) on top.

So my H can abandon his family, move out into an apartment with absolutely no discussion with myself or the effect on the kids, but what? I should really make it work with him but you are a MAN so you don't have to put up with that crap? You can have pride but I can't? Hmpf

I am going to try to logical and emotional outburst by you but oh well. If my x had WA I would be acting in a completely different manner. Is that clear? She took up with OM, again, after my love busting evening, which happend to be her Bday. (yes I am one of the clueless men... )She either loves him, doesnt respect me, both, feels entiteled or I couldnt meet her needs during reconcil that she says I was, blah blah blah. I was clear. 1 time. not again. stop comparing. I know you have pain, hurt pride, insecurity, etc. You should post about them. I am sure I am not the only one who hopes you are succesful in your reconcil. Let us help, stubborn, willful, prideful girl. I wish I had this place before/ during reconcil. M/F dynamics are different. The same rules do not apply to us.

lay off the macho stuff a touch, NO open yourself up to your emotions, even the horrible ones, yes stop comparing yourself to others (and don't tell me you don't because I know that you do) maybe( how else can I self improve?), , work on the self-esteem issues (yes, I mean that), I dont currently have any be proud of who you are but not overly cocky, I am admit your faults and mistakes and I do. Thanks for that.
(especially to the woman in your life).

But I am a hopeless romantic in the sense that I believe we can find people in this world that we connect with, emotionally, sexually, etc. When you find that, you should always fight for it. Even 10, 20 years later. I'm still fighting despite all the bs. Guess you just not a hopeless romantic. Big shocker.
Yes you should fight for it. Does that not apply to her? Hmpf. I didnt find one as evidenced by her WA twice and affair twice and D twice.
as for your big shocker. nice try.

I have the potential to make you "very uneasy". No, not really. I detest people who act as OM, OW. I wont be one in someone elses H perception. I ask myself, would I be ok with this behavior of a OM/friend? I have tread the line on this BB already, IMO. I am a hairbreadth from not posting to women here anymore, allready. I dont know how to prove my ideas to guys, without doing so a little bit. Why should they believe me without proof. Its pretty counter intuitive and not PC. I think I have allready, so if new ones come along, tough noodles for them if they dont believe me.

I don't appreciate you trying to make me look stupid to boost your own self-rightousness. Very unattractive and not cool. Lay off it

I parallel date when I am single. Its time efficient, I dont even know if I like a girl before 10 dates,(though I do know if I dont like her before then....) and it takes months to get to know someone. That doesnt make me a player. I would be happy to have an arranged marriage. I am honest and considerate of there right to choose, and feelings. I cant make you look stupid. You do fine on your own.... comeon I am kidding....

Operative word being TRUST. Also why is it strictly "women" need to fight this tendency? What about you? Are you saying you could never stop the tendency to not trust your ex in order to have a "healthy" R?

Yes the operative word is trust. how does trust come about? for both sexes, thru actions. I know where you are going with this. Stop comparing our sitches.

the tendancy I was talking about was.... sheesh would one of the women pipe up and smack LFL around? uhh. to keep trying to get a man to stop 'acting' manly, and then she loses attraction when he does.

Karen? help me out here.

GREAT!! you did it . I just acted needy and asked a woman for help. Congrats! you broke my macho exterior. I didnt even last a couple days on a BB with you. See how strong your H is? He kept up with you for years....

As for taking a deeper look at your responses, I do anyways just don't always get that across in the posts
I know. Just had to say it, though it takes all the fun out of being subtle.

[Stigmata]

USSWEDE,

Well I like the swedish, in particular those 6' plus, blonde haired, blue eyed goddeses. Or was that Iceland...
of course I also like the dark haired, doe eyed girls in Ibiza. Wait am I coming off as a player???? (never been any of these places actually just some inside jokes about height and hair color around here.)


--LOL. clap-clap. Nice disclaimer, BF. I know this was painful/awkward to your usual unfiltered SOP. Analyzing...teasing sarcasm zapped LFL's "player" remark
obliquely/indirectly for LFL's benefit.

Indirect post "player" non sequitur, despite the deployment of sarcasm deflectors, indicates LFL comment managed to tweak BF's "how do I come across?" insecurity
button. Admittedly, not a very big button in BF's case but we all have them.

2. Offsetting the tall blonde comment with the brunette soft eyed comment as to not offend the genetically recessive amongst us places the book ends on
the women spectrum, BF, but you leave out the Asians, African based W, latin and everything in between. LOL. You knew you stepped in the s$%# as soon as
you started...Stigmata has learned from personal exp. not good to extoll blonde/blues in midst of burnette/browns, Asians etc. etc..

Of course your comment was meant for us XYs. So, ladies, relax. Garden variety male bonding/indentification; not statement of BF's "depth."

As for selfish, x was the one who called herself selfish repeatedly during/after affair. Called me things, but she never called me selfish. So I am going to have to differ. I am a giver, but if you give to much in the wrong was as a man, women lose respect and attraction.

--This last sentence is dead on, BF. Painfully true. I am the epitome of the result. Put x's needs ahead of own (most anyways) and tried to do everything possible to make her life easier/comfortable while together. Result? I became more of her "personal assistant." I used these same exact words in midst of earlier argument and after split she admitted that's how she started treating me.

--BTW, x is admittedly selfish. More I gave, more she took. Poor boundary skills. No one likes a "yes-man."
On Forgiveness/turning the other cheek...

I'll bastardize an WC Field's quote. I think there are some long-timers on this board, exp. in other forums, who might want to ponder this one:

"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then, quit. There's no use being a damned fool about it."

As BF intones, forgiveness not a one-sided equation. The offender must put forth a strong remorseful, and, most importantly, unsolicited, effort to allow for the offendee to give out forgiveness. It is not free; it must be earned.

Finally, yes, As get whitewashed. A person who willingly engages in an A has a character flaw, primarily that of conflict avoidance, prurient self-interest/absorption, and entitlement. It's related to the POP (point-of-purchase) impulses that many a marketer has understood. It is why they put candy bars, Hollywood "dish" rags, and other "bad" items on the POP display at the cash registers.

You know it's bad for you. They know it's bad for you. But, hey, that Brad and Angelina article looks tittillating and that Snickers Bar woni't kill my diet--I can cheat a little?

(shudder. Now remembering how my heart would skp beat every time x would say it was okay to "cheat" on diet in time period after A.)

Argh. PMA sliding to NMA...gotta thought-stop now.

-Stigmata-

[Stigmata]

Actually I have brought it up since day one. Pride goeth before a fall. Its been reaffirmed several times. I did not have an ego just as we were failing. I was insecure. I stopped leading, and being a strong H. I put her on a pedastal. I developed fear after seeing her responding to OM initiations even though she was not conscious of it yet, and pushed her away emotionally as punishment.

--Argh. the parallels continue. Feel for ya.

Parallel: At beg. of R x afraid I would dump her at any given moment. Called me her "arm candy." Pursued me for years. After I commited, insecurity issues w/ me caused R polarity shift. My memory runs to the eidetic and only right now do I rmember this:

Early in R X read me poem from x BF and said she tends to destroy the pedestal whenever a guy puts her up on one. Your "pedestal" word just triggered that compartmentalized synaptic memory fire, BF. Argh...losing strength.

--And your pushing x away denied your overriding genetic obligation to drive off competing alpha male or, at the least, confront said male and subjugate him to the rank of Beta male if he is to remain in your territory. I know you already know this; don't want to rub it in. I did similar.

My hubris muted my "gut feelings" and I let x go alone to another city to help OM find an apt. every weekend. It also didn't help that I trusted to a fault. She began violating my boundaries and I didn't put a stop to it for fear of looking insecure and losing her. I became weakened and my subsequent tight leash paranoia inability-to-process-A reactions exacerbated this weakness.

The post-mortem back-engineering I am doing via this site, mbuilders, and break free text are making my Stigmata wounds open up and bleed for real this time...but it's a lesson I have to learn and the cross I have to bear. (nice tie-in eh?)

-Stigmata-