Quote: I was asking for your opinon of my actions in M/R/A. I want to know your opinion because you are a woman, the personality type I percieve you as, and the life experiences you have had.
Sorry I didn't get to this sooner. I've had a very bizarre day. I came outside this morning and the rear window of my car was completely shattered. I live in the country and hunting season did start last weekend, but my driveway is right outside my bedroom. I can't believe I or my bf or my dog wouldn't have heard something. Very disorienting. I thought you were asking me for my reaction to the back-and-forth between you and TS. But you are asking me about your sitch and your W? Is that right? Let me make sure I understand the story as you see it. You were very busy with work and you allowed (and even encouraged) a situation to develop where your W and best friend became too close and eventually had an affair. You blame yourself in part for letting this situation happen. You also blame them, but you give yourself a big chunk of the responsibility. My own experience has been that an outside cannot lure someone into an affair if there is not already a crack in the relationship. I know others do not believe me. But I have tried to get the attention of married men (more than once-- when I was younger) and hit the teflon coating. Other married men put out signals that let you know they would be open to something-- particularly if you (the woman) are willing to be the one who makes it happen. I'm assuming something like this is true for the married woman, too. When these two were thrown together a lot, there was a point at which one or both of them KNEW where it was headed. He or she or both had the choice to stop right then and there. But maybe one pushed and the other agreed, or maybe they both had the same idea at the same time. You are not to blame for this. Is this what you're asking me? As for now... I understand the people on the board (women mostly) who are saying, clearly you still have feelings for her, why not give it another chance, etc. I guess I'm wondering what was the fissure in the R that made her susceptible to an A? When they came to that fork in the road, why didn't she put on the brakes? If you gave this woman your heart and soul and she betrayed you, I can understand not wanting to go back. If you two got back together, it wouldn't be the same as it was. The innocence has been shattered. You might or might not be able to rebuild something. If I were you at this point, I would probably move on. I've posted that quote in a couple of places that says you can love someone and still leave them. Love isn't enough to build and sustain a R. It's only a start. I don't know whether I've addressed any of the issues you asked about. Please clarify and I would be only too happy to say more.
LFL=PITA. I pity her H. Always having to be 'on' and such.
Oh, Bf you love it, don't try it. And don't steal my lines. I was the one who told You that I felt I would always have to feel "on" around you. Thus, the LFL/BF love affair will never come to fruition. It would go up in flames. You are like a cold beer a woman slams back once in a while, not a fine wine. But you have potential to be a fine wine. That's my bare brutal assessment. And you know I really like you as a friend BF. But let's face it. Women will not TRUST you long term. They will test and test. Oooh, that reminds me. I want to find stuff you wrote about me on Cobra's thread to make my point.
Here it is: Most women respond to attractive qualities with a test. they have been let down or disappointed in the past and now they dont believe it when they see it. So they fight what they are attracted to.
For example, since LFL has stated that my qualities are attractive, I will use her as an example. look at how often she is always telling me to stop being macho, talk about my insecurities, poking testing. she likes the qualities but doesnt want to or wont believe it is real. Women try to destroy what they like because it has so much power over them.
Make sense? mmmmm no but yes. They're women.
these qualities make them feel submissive (which they sometimes translate as weak) and wanting to be intimate, (vulnerable). This is scary especially when it has led to disappointment. That is why I say ignore their reactions. its based in fear. and the real reason for it is they like it and dont want too.
HP has agreed with this. Good wives fight this tendancy to constantly test and therefore destroy that which they like. Yours has no reason to stop because she doesnt perceive you as worthy and you kept failing them. You can change this though. With actions, not words or books. Understand?
Thats why womens 'tests' amuse me, because it just tells me they like me. This is why their tests should never anger you, and be dealt with in a firm, yet unemotional manner. Like the phrases and gestures I have given to you and others.
That was a great post BF and I'm not being sarcastic. You were absolutely right about most of it. However, you admit that women don't like it, don't trust it, etc yet also state too bad, that's how I am so live with it. Hmmm. That spells trouble. Do women really fight what they are attracted too? Yes and no. We want those macho qualitites like a said, short-term, but long term, we realize we need more. Any smart woman will instantly realize when she is dealing with a "player" and respond accordingly - take them home for a night of fun, tease them on the boards (lol) or worst of all, fall in love with them and never feel truly comfortable in the R. I fear your ex may have been #3. My educated guess is she never really trusted you to be true to her so she sabotaged it before you had a chance to hurt her. Self-protection that only hurt her more in the end but she can at least always say, well BF didn't cheat on me, I did it to him. F-ed up I know but makes some sense. I think Lil was right, you never really shared the problems in the R before the affair. I can assume some of them but I'd like to hear it from you, unless you think it's all water under the bridge now. Still, it might be enlightening for future R. kwim?
My filters are on high alert. Why did she say that, what did she mean by that? Is that a test, or just circumstance. Its almost like a crash course. LMAO. Its so obvious. Don't contradict yourself BF. I think you do question why I say this and that just like any of the women on the board. As you should. Am I testing you? You bet. I'm giving you a B+ so far. Still need improvement though. Can't you just be more macho-sincere instead of macho-cocky? For instance the way you ended to thread: I cant believe I am aiding and abetting this thread litter Why so harsh? Plus, I don't buy it because if what I wrote was really thread litter you wouldn't have even commented at all. And you wouldn't have brought me up in other posts. Oh wait a minute, I forgot. Boys like to tease and pull ponytails when they like someone so carry on. Oh, about the dominant/submissive theory that TSinA is about to have an aneurysm over, I think it makes tons of sense. You already know my take on this in the bedroom Lol but I think it gets into a problem in the rest of life Only if the man comes off too dominant. That is all I am saying about your own style BF. You can be macho/dominant just tone it down a notch. The woman can be submissive just not a wallflower. Going too far to the extreme either way is not going to work. Find a happy medium would ya? You already have some very sincere, thoughtful qualitities. When you start a new R, just be wary of coming off as too much of a player. Sure women like it but even if you did everything right in the R she will still not believe you can go so far against your nature. The players of the world "play", with women, with emotions, with jobs, with everything. Labels can become a reality. Maybe get away from the whole macho player mentality. I know it would be hard for you but it will only bite you in the butt in the end. I'm just having my own stream of consciousness here. Hope some of it was helpful if not just entertaining. I'm still working on this "case study."
LFL, you think and write very well. I admire this quality in you and others on the forum. I especially agree with the Can't you just be more macho-sincere instead of macho-cocky?
I see some good comming from blackfoots macho-cocky. Personally I do want to get to be a little more macho-sincere but might go over board sometimes and come across as macho-cocky in a few cases. I have had one poster suggest I was a too serious/no fun personality so I started to kid around more but wonder if I go a little too far.
I have an opinion people have to go too far sometimes and learn what is too much to eventually reach a balance point. I don't think it would take many people here very long to figure out what their balance point is. That is to say you or anyone else will agree with or have a similar balance point.
You and blackfoot bring your own special gems to the forum. Thanks for posting, because what you guys post is interesting and can be helpful in several ways.
To Og_Lou, My new favorite poster Well that was nice to read. I can totally understand your "balancing point" comment. And for the record, I don't think you are macho-cocky. Who would say that? You seem very sincere to me. Interesting point on the "too serious" personality. I am the exact opposite so I am always on high alert for the "serious" ones on the board. Not that they are wrong at all, just different than my approach. I think I am sometimes serious but more often than not looking to find a little fun and stimulating conversation. I can name off three or four (both men and women) who I probably rub the wrong way at times but it goes both ways. I am in full awareness of it and I work on not judging. Hope they do the same. I struggle with my own "balancing act" all the time. I am naturally very flirty but I like to think of myself as flirty-sincere rather than flirty-cocky. Lol. And yes, there are good things coming from BF's personality. No doubt about that. Just wanted to throw in the benefit of a slightly watered-down version. Although maybe a watered-down BF would just not be "him". Hmmm. So the question remains, can/should a person change their very personality to meet the needs of a R/M? If you stay away from Freudian pessimism that we are locked into our personalities from an early age, we can certainly find many theories in which it is believed people can and do change their personalities to meet the needs of others as well as themselves in the long term. Is it simply a matter of wanting to change? Well that is the first step for sure. Thus all the banging our heads against the wall with LD S and such. Ultimately, if they don't change we have to, right? Or what is the end result? An unhappy M? Some would say no. Just a change in perception, attitude, etc. It is all in our control in the end, which is pretty comforting. At this point in my own M with H back in the picture, I struggle with my perceptions and attitudes more than anything. I don't want to hijack BF's thread but let's just say the "I love you's" are not flying fast and furious in the LFL household. Did have hot sex last night though So as I was saying on Chrome's thread, the sex can still be there even if the EC is lacking. That is of course if BOTH people are willing. When one person is totally against any sexual act, well..
Thanks for your response Lil. I have had on two occasions car windows shatter for no reason. They simply truned into glass spider webs while I was sitting /standing there. So FWIW, it happens sometimes. It is unsettling.
I have tried to get the attention of married men (more than once-- when I was younger) and hit the teflon coating Yes that would have been me-- teflon coated that is. One exception would have been with my production assistant. It simply snuck up on me becuase of proximity, and environment. some of the activities we engaged in because of the work, caused the same chemicals to fire off that happen in a new R. The body confuses the reason, or associates it with the person(s) there at the time.
This is my observation, and deducement from what I know of adrenal medullary hormones, and phsyc, 20/20 hindsight, not fact. Dr harley gives a very mild explanation of it and calls the need, recreational time. I assume there is some specific study and reference to it somewhere, becuase of his statements.
I guess I'm wondering what was the fissure in the R that made her susceptible to an A? When they came to that fork in the road, why didn't she put on the brakes?
When that fork came, I had emotionally cut her off for approx ~ 3 months. I saw what was happening. Why I did this instead of kicking OM out I could say, but honestly I cant tell you why. Partly becuase of my need to retreat to cave, partly my need to have value, Maybe because I feel as you if your SO has value, or is in love with you, then noone else has a chance. I guess I forgot to ask myself should she be In love with me.....
maybe as USSWEDE says and Cobra, becuase I am narcisstic. IF that is the case then she is better off without my incurable toxicity. I agree with Stigmata, and have said it is/was egotistical. Wont ever happen again.
I agree with HP you dont do that, no matter how good things are. it is not caring and protecting. Hence my guilt.
As for her putting on the brakes, she thought she was by letting OM know she loved him, but nothing could ever happen because of her love for me and marriage. she had no idea the firestorm of chemicals(emotions) this would cause her. She had never been down that road before. She fought her emotions, I fought my emotions(betrayal, anger expressed thru demands and ultimatums), we both tried, we both failed. I am not going to continue with struggling with someone in a A to practice my control over these emotions. My knowledge that a R needs respect and to have self respect trumps my need to be THAT self actualized. lol. Once again it boils down to value. If you have it you dont have to fight another for your SO. This is the one thing everyone on this board has. Their SO is still in the game, still thinks of you as the one they want. Some have abuse issues, some have actual LD, many of insecurity issues, some just need to work on being attractive but all have a captive audience at least.
Other R stressors, major move, career changes, loss of close ties to family for her. For me insecurity due to my seeming lack of success with career change. Didnt happen as expediantly as I am used too. I dont deal well with failure in myself. I hand myself a good beatin when I do. This behavior is NOT attractive to women.
oh yeah, I'm assuming something (being teflon like) like this is true for the married woman, too. In my observations this is not true. I wont say there are not exceptions, or educated, experienced, ladies out there. Women are designed to follow a strong, leading, man. If one enters their life, that appears(hence the need to percieve) to be more so then their current one they will. 66% of D is filed by women. How many 'nice guys' make up this percentage? How many abusers? Most are neglect, and a womans perception of neglect is much different then a mans....
Which gives me another thought..... Humans are the only ones who feel the need to guard their Harems. Think kings, eunachal (is that a word?) guards, etc. All others animals that have harems, merely fight off other males, establish there S&R value, aplha male status. Once that is done the females dont wander off. There is no forced staying by the male, or fighting with females. That I can think off at the moment....
Speaking only for myself, when I was in other Rs in the past, I did tend to look over my SO's shoulder to see who else was out there. Often it was because I felt my SO was neglecting me, or because he was in fact neglecting me. One period comes to mind when I was living with a guy who was a computer programmer. He was with a new company that was just getting started (It's pretty well known now-- this was 30 years ago), and he worked around the clock. Once I remember I came home from work and he was still at work. So I went out to a basketball game, got home around 10 pm, and he was still at work. A friend of his called and wanted to drive to a town a couple of hours away to see another friend of ours. My SO wasn't available, so I went. We drove, visited, and got back home around 6 AM. My SO still wasn't home. Yeah, I started an A with my boss. Not blaming my SO, but I was vulnerable.
In later Rs I do remember still noticing other men and their attention to me. I might have been vulnerable then, too. Not sure.
This would not happen to me again. In spite of my problems with my BF, I am NOT looking over his shoulder. If I'm around a guy and I pick up "interested" signals, I shut down that channel. I am not susceptible to attention from another man at this point; I don't care how much of a strong alpha attractive leader he is. I have that portal closed.
Stuff like this doesn't just "happen" to you. People know at a subconscious level when they're on thin ice. For one reason or another, they don't trot back to the thick ice/shore as fast as they can. I think when you're younger, you may not recognize the danger signs. Maybe it can happen to you (that is, you can get more emotionally involved with someone than you intended to) before you're really aware of what has happened. But generally you DO become aware before you go to the motel, take off your clothes, and crawl into bed with them. At any point, you can stop.
But I maintain that there are enough choice points along that path that no one really just stumbles into an affair. "We didn't plan it; it just happened." Well, maybe you didn't plan it, but these things don't "just happen."
There was an article in the paper locally recently about signs of an impending affair... stuff like when something good (or bad) happens at work, the potential A person is the one you can't wait to tell... I mean, this isn't rocket science. A person may rationalize this desire to rush to the person outside the marriage with news as "well, we worked together on this project so the news would mean so much more to him/her." Yeah, whatever. When you feel your primary EC with your spouse slipping, that is a danger sign. You are vulnerable at that point. Time to plug that leak.
There were a bunch of other really telling signs in that article... can't remember them at the moment.
I WOULD LIKE SOME HELP. I HAVE ISSUES WITH H AND SEX...I AINT GETTN ANY. H HAS NO DESIRE, I HAVE IT ALL. FILED FOR D LAST JULY, STILL TRYING TO MAKE IT WORK, BUT THIS PART KILLN ME
Hi nscare, first of all, take off the "caps lock" key on your keyboard. It makes it look like you're shouting.
If there's something you want to talk about, go to the main Sex Starved Marriage page * here,* and click on "post" to start a new thread. Ask your question, pose your dilemma, whatever you like. That way we can address whatever you're interested in.
The board is busier during the week, so you may not get responses tonight.
He said his x detached and took off to another state to be on her own/self-sufficient etc. for the first time ever in her life
ughh my written communication is worse then I thought and I already write too long posts.
NO. She currently lives with her parents. Yes she is a only girl, was fairly spoiled up untill 10 y.o.
After A started, and 6 weeks went by with her lack of reason, for it, she started saying things like she had been thinking of D anyways. my point was WE just moved 2000 miles away from her home, basically everything she knew. She would do that? If considering D? Leave safety, security, support network? career, friends, etc? (which is one of the main reasons I 'took my toys' and 'ran away' so that she would have her family for support, regardless of the outcome for us. There was a multitude of reasons but this was the primary. I wasnt sure I even wanted her anymore. I did want her to be safe though.) It was so preposterous. We had planned and worked and strived for culmination of moving, family, careers, educations, etc. The first few months we were there she/we were so stoked about everything, we were practically on a second honeymoon, emotionally speaking.
We're morally self-righteous to an extreme and finding it nearly impossible to let our x's EA/PAs with OM go
ahhh, the EA was more hurtful then a one nighter would have been. most women arent like that though, for good reason. But the EA, with PA, after my attempts to correct things, yes, not acceptable. I let her know as much prior to PA. Her choice. EA already started, takes time to go thru and get over, my fault or not I took the blame. PA is a distinct choice, IMO, especially after moving to another state.
Moral self righteousness.... mmmmm not so much. Over PA ok probably. unfathomably hurt by betrayal. pain and lack of attention to providance of proper pain relief during reconcil, caused resentment. reinstituted cause of massive pain and escalation of same said pain led to intolerance of contact with pain causant.
Other things, for you Stig. I am not a true Extrovert. I have created that, work at it. It taxes me, so I am a true Intro, though not a pointy head. I am also an NP,but Whether I am a T or a F has gotten lost between biofeed back studies and practice and exercising control, attempting to judiciate limbic system and even R complex to a certain extent. Most likely I was a F, and environmental situation and my backlash as a youth, caused first desire for change.
INTP huh, who would have guessed... probably feeling pretty EFFEY right now though. There is no rougher road to be driven down, IME, and according to the 'experts'. Do what it takes and GAL healthly. Monitor amount of drinking especially drinking done alone. None done alone is better, IMO.
Have you talked to anyone about taking antidepressants. They will smooth out the highs and lows and enable you to maintain, better boundary control and appearance of stability. I am no doc, but vitamin P (prosac) doesnt take a lot of hootenany to discontinue taking .... Have your read marriagebuilders.com. Dr. Harley does a good job of telling you how to take care of yourself, and what you can do to improve things. Doesnt talk much about what not to do, or what not to deal with or allow, which is significantly more important IMO on acheiving a quick resolution. I find his style to be appropriate to getting men to understand things, and working with women who are highly logical and motivated. Not so much for emotional types. Michelles style is better for that.
So as I was saying on Chrome's thread, the sex can still be there even if the EC is lacking. That is of course if BOTH people are willing. When one person is totally against any sexual act, well.. 
years ago), and he worked around the clock. Once I remember I came home from work and he was still at work. So I went out to a basketball game, got home around 10 pm, and he was still at work. A friend of his called and wanted to drive to a town a couple of hours away to see another friend of ours. My SO wasn't available, so I went. We drove, visited, and got back home around 6 AM. My SO still wasn't home. Yeah, I started an A with my boss. Not blaming my SO, but I was vulnerable. 
There is no rougher road to be driven down, IME, and according to the 'experts'. Do what it takes and GAL healthly. Monitor amount of drinking especially drinking done alone. None done alone is better, IMO.