Attitude leads to Behaivior, Behaivior Leads to At

[blackfoot]

Ok, here we go

TSinA

When I first started posting here I had a quote by Plato in my sig line. It went, "Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle."

After you did not respond to my previous thread/post to you I went looking for you. Who is this guy TSinA.

My initial impression of you was here is a guy talking out of both sides of his mouth, and I assumed you were doing this because my post in GEL's thread is a controversial, UN P.C, antifeminist, topic.

Side-bar---> I found a short e-book online today, aimed at women, along these lines only articulated much better then I. No scary words like dominating or submitting. It suggested to women to behave exactly as Cobra said he would respond favorably too. Titled The Women Men Adore and Never Want to Leave. By Bob Grant L.P.C

So I made a reply that I considered reasonable, to someone who I perceived as attempting to take a shot at me.

No response. So I go looking to see why people on a different forum are calling you an incestual, Christ-killing, traitor. Imagine my surprise when I cant find any thread from you, but I do find choice parts of my post, along with rowdy inciteful comments from you in someone else’s thread encouraging others to come serve me my come-uppance for my disrespectful, denigrating attitude towards women.

I am glad I didn’t see that before making my original reply to you.

More waiting, because I did make some points in my post and was hoping you would at least react to a few of them so we could enter into the dialogue you suggested you wanted when asking me where my thread was, so as not to hijack GEL's.

Nothing, so I went and found your thread in Rebuilding.
There I found a post from Honeypot, a woman I respect greatly. I read it and understood what she was saying and trying to say. It changed my attitude towards you. (you can thank her later. ) I remembered my sig line, why I started posting here, and all the pain and confusion I had from my WAS, and I think I have a pretty good handle on Relationship dynamics. Emotions, those sneaky ba$^ard$.
Maybe I should write a book, like all the other Divorced counselors.

I don’t have the answers to Relationships, obviously, and I failed at meeting my wife’s needs, more so then you did as I am Divorced (tick tock soon), and you and your wife is still in the game together.

What I do try to do is talk about attraction and what women find attractive in a man. I know that many, many men don’t have this down. Lack of father, lack of dating experience, social conditioning, socialist education, etc.

Attraction is not a holy grail of Rs, by any means, but what I have come to realize over time is that as men by looking inside, fixing ourselves- generally speaking eliminating fears and insecurities, and not worrying -so much- about what others 'think' of us we are free to act unencumbered and let the man out, instead of acting like 'male persons' (stole that- thanks ARjnex) and women are strongly affected by it.

I also attempt to give women here a very unfiltered, honest, raw, male opinion; they get to be a fly on the wall so to speak. I have very little reservations about speaking my mind because I have no vested interest, no fear, no attachment to the outcome, of what their reactions may be. I’m anonymous, otherwise I would be scared poopless and trembling in my socks...... ummmm. no.

I believe they respect and at a minimum appreciate it. I know from personal experience that nearly all (the others must have been broken ) women I have engaged and acted this same way towards in person enjoyed it and found it attractive. There is no adoration going on here, it is insulting to these intelligent and experienced ladies to suggest that they would do so from knowing only a virtual person, with no actual knowledge of any details of me other then to know that I too had enough flaws to have a WAS. They know how hard they work at their R's and if my x is as amazing as I say she is, she must have tried very hard too. I could be a homeless person, hanging at the public library, waiting for rush hour to go collect 'donations'.

Well I have said a lot, and not really said anything yet.

I am willing to chat with you, if you have questions, if you would like me to explain why I believe what I do, etc.

I was dismissive (thank you ZB) of you in my other thread; the eye roll on my thread was especially unnecessary. I should not have done that. Your behavior was that of a Jackass though.

If you pull another stunt like the previous one, I will lay a serious verbal smack-down on you. It will not be in the same light tone that I now intend to come across with my partner Starsky.

I also poked fun at you in my other post, but I had reason for doing so, besides my own amusement. I was trying to get you to see how ridiculous it is to care about another’s comments towards you when the comments themselves are preposterous. (seriously dude christ-killer? Let me shake your hand and thank you because-- if it weren’t for you I wouldn’t be able to be Saved and Redeemed. You though are going to burn in hell. *) You care because the comments hurt you and have struck at some insecurity. I saw it in your thread, and I see your wife actively trying to help you eliminate that insecurity.

As a man her perceived 'nagging', pushing, 'taking over our lives' actually amplifies our insecurity, because we don’t understand what the women need, and because our fear at failing in the insecure area makes us act incorrectly, almost always without fail.

I am posting in this forum, because I am lazy (thank you x), short on time, don’t wish to go bebopping about the board, and also because I know if I say something that is in error to you the strong willed, independently minded, marriage positive, vocal opinion having ladies that I already know on this forum will gladly hand me my head on a platter. You can be confidant of that too.

I am going to make a couple more observations, suggestions. Find a self esteem coach, or do some research on the web about it. I will go so far as to say maybe even in lieu of the MC that your W is resisting. It will dramatically help you at work as well as with your W. She IS trying to help you, but your focused on the wrong thing right now. You are afraid of your marriage falling apart if you don’t hover over it.

It already fell apart.

She seems to be there still, correct? Don’t worry about why right now. It is because you have more value to her then OM. This is a good thing. You need to be selfish right now and think of yourself, what is best for you, and how to take care of yourself (issues and fears). Ironically this is what she needs. If you do this (without shutting her out- don’t go extreme the other way) she will see it, be curious, wonder what is up, and very probably become open to trying MC again.

I am guessing you are probably in a SSM too.


So,
Talk to me.


* I believe that Jesus was a real person, and that his purpose in life was to die for mankind’s sins. So if my joke offended you, tough you’ll get over it. Ill get my turn to be judged, you don’t get to do it.

[InherJourney]

BF... I think your visit here to the SSM board is helpful. You bring a good message ( although I sometimes have to get past your style of delivery). We're all here because in some fashion we are stymied by the lack of desire in our marriages...and we want that attraction back. I see in my situation how my need to control coupled with my H's insecurities derailed our sex life. I see this as a general theme here.

Funny how you are riling up the men...but it's for their own good! ( ZB...your comments to your W....absolutely great...hope you continue to have fun).

On a personal note, I am sorry for the pain of your( impending) D...I hope you keep in touch here as you continue on your journey.

[TSinAtlanta]

OK, BF, sorry about the non-response on my part. I thought I had looked through the posts for all responses but obviously I did not see yours. Probably because of the jumping around and generally wrecking havoc with the BB's organization. Anyway, don't chalk it up to inattention on my part or not caring enough to post in reply. I have gotten little enough response as it is, so I would respond to any posts directed at me.

Yes, on the surface our marriage is still alive. It was still alive before the bomb dropped 7 months ago, but, as I said, I was fat, dumb and happy. Now we are working on fixing (?) what wasn't working. Our MC seems to know what he is doing. He has identified some depression in my WAS that she was not completely aware of. She has opened up in our sessions and, in fact, in our first session, said that she wanted to work to repair the hurt that she had caused me. So that is hopeful. What is also hopeful is what our pastor said to me when I disclosed the affair to him, "You would be surprised at how many, what I consider good marriages have had to deal with affairs." Now after 7 months I had thought we were back on the right track, my WAS and I, but obviously there is still anger in me for how she lied to me (omission or commission, who cares?). I think that accounts for the extremity (?) of some of my reactions to postings on this board. I do not enjoy being lied to or being bullshat. So when I think someone is not being straight with me, when a women says she wants to be loved in a respectful relationship and then leaps to defend you in your dominance/submissive syndrome, that chaps my b*tt.

I'm not sure I understand the reference to Jesus Christ. I was just using Christkiller as an example of the extremity of the reactions, but maybe another term will serve as well. Here is a quote from Camus about that, "La verite, c'est le seul Christ que nous meritions." You can use your HS French to translate that, if it matters to you. I guess I am a christian, I sing in our chancel choir every Sunday, I recite the Nicene Creed every Sunday, so that makes me one, right? Anyway, I have enough troubles on Earth right now to worry about how I will be judged in the afterlife. If Heaven is populated by people like those on this BB, I guess I am going straight to hell. BTW, do know what the ATL Falcons and Billy Graham have in common? They can both get 70,000 people in the Georgia Dome to yell out, "Jesus Christ!"

I believe you are right about the anonymity; I would never disclose my identity here, that would destroy the safety of "letting it all hang out." But others like to link up. More power to them.

" I know God promises not to give me more than I can handle. I
just wish He didn't trust me so much."
- Mother Teresa

[Greeneyedlass]

TS,

You made a comment in your post that caught my eye here....(So when I think someone is not being straight with me, when a women says she wants to be loved in a respectful relationship and then leaps to defend you in your dominance/submissive syndrome, that chaps my b*tt.)

What about that chaps your backside? Perhaps I'm taking this out of context...just trying to clarify. I see plenty of room for a woman to want to be loved in a respectful relationship yet also be submissive in some ways to her H....perhaps not totally submissive, but submissive nonetheless. There are many forms of submission...not all of them are bad, yet that word seems to have a bad connotation to it.

IMPO in this case it has to do with the woman allowing the man to be a man...does that make sense? Women also (even the strongest most independent of us) need to feel like a woman....meaning, protected, cherished, treasured, wanted, desired, loved. Often, in my experience in past R's, many of those feminine needs can be met by being somewhat submissive and allowing the man to take care of her so-to-speak.

I'm not positive, but it appears that many of the HDW's on this board (such as myself) are probably fairly strong females. We're intelligent and we're capable...sometimes that can get in the way of allowing a man to care for us in a way that he may need to. For me a respectfully loving R does include room for submission. Here's an example of what I mean.

I went into my current R as a very independent, self-sufficient woman who was used to doing absolutely everything myself...if I didn't know how to do it I learned it. I could fix anything around the house, could do some auto maintenance, whatever. About a year into my M I realized my H didn't think I "needed" him...it didn't matter that I "wanted" him and was in the R because I wanted to be, the fact that I appeared not to "need" him affected him in a bad way. He needed to take care of me in some ways to feel needed. So I have conciously stepped back (became submissive) and now simply ask him to do things for me (that I'm perfectly capable of doing), like changing the oil in my car, doing home repairs, or climbing under the house to find a dead rodent (YUCK, never liked that one anyway). Now, I'm not a woman who shirks at any of the things I mentioned (I'm definitely not afraid of getting dirty or greasy), and would normally just do them without thinking. But I learned by observation with him that he seems to feel (and this is the southern boy coming out in him) that women don't do dirty work like that. His taking care of things like that for me makes him feel needed.

That to me is an example of a respectful, loving, yet submissive R.

Blackfoot...did I get anywhere near the target on what you were trying to convey?

GEL

[InherJourney]

This is good stuff...taking Blackfoot's message and GEL-izing it to digestable form!

[karen1]

GEL,

That is pretty much how I see things as well. I am a very strong, confident woman. I lead 60 people at work, do all of our fundraising and am fiscally responsible for about 2 million dollars per year. I raised my two older children without benefit of a spouse who was capable of being a real parnter (ex-H). I can use tools, I know the basics of how my car works, can mow the lawn etc...

My current H ALWAYS mows the lawn, does all the car stuff and uses the tools far more frequently than I do. He prefers it. It makes him feel needed. He also does laundry and frequently makes dinner. I do most of the cleaning and most of the food shopping and probably 2/3 of the cooking. I also take out the trash and do other parts of the yard work. We share money management. We basically do what needs doing. We are partners in life.

Where is he dominant and me submissive? In areas that he sees as having meaning to him as a man. He uses language I don't care for sometimes. I don't correct him. He yells and carries on when angry and frustrated (not at people but in general)- if it isn't hurtful to someone who cares? He often seeks my opinion on large financial matters and I frequently say, "Whatever honey, I trust your judgement." He leads our family spiritually. He says grace at dinner almost every night.

I like that he is strong man. I like that he is masculine. I don't always love every way that his masculinity is expressed but if it doensn't hurt anyone then why should I try to correct and control him (I'm kinda thinking of stuff here like hairdog's guy type humor. I would laugh or groan rather than giving a 5 minute lecture on feminist rhetoric). That is how the dominant/submissive role plays out in my M.

It would be even better if H extended that role to the bedroom. I think some games with a few silk scarves would be great fun. I would be thrilled to be on either side of that kind of game. I mentioned it once. Too weird for H I think. If I am too submissive in the bedroom then I don't get his dominance - I get nothing.

Karen

[chromosphere]

"About a year into my M I realized my H didn't think I "needed" him...it didn't matter that I "wanted" him"

IMHO, being needed is stronger than being wanted. Maybe it is how I define the words, if a woman says she needs me it would evoke a much stronger emotional response than saying she wants me (although being wanted is very nice too and I would not ever shrug it off just because I wanted to be needed). Perhaps both partners having both feelings is the ideal state in a relationship.

Good post GEL. I have been itching to respond more on your thread, but others seem to be giving you better advice than I could. Most of what I would give would be commiseration anyway.

[blackfoot]

TSinA

I get the feeling my communication style is completely foreign to you.

So when I think someone is not being straight with me, when a women says she wants to be loved in a respectful relationship and then leaps to defend you in your dominance/submissive syndrome, that chaps my b*tt

so you are upset wtih the ladies for not scorching me for my 'syndrome'. There is two possibilites for for them not doing this, either they see something you dont, understand it differently then you do or because they are afraid of me/my response.

I dont think the latter is likely. Do you. Please say yes so the can wallop you.

I am going to stop the sarcasm, dry humor with you, either I suck at it or you dont get it.

I need some validation now. Did anybody get it?

You didnt deal with any of the real topics I brought up, self esteem, frustration at womens conflicting expressions of what they want vs. what they respond to, SSM, etc.

I do see more Eeyore type comments, mentality. Women do not find this attractive. Are you interested in changing, or do you want to be be loved for 'just being me'?

you can respond, and get some ideas from others here or just keep lurking and try to figure it out.

Good luck.


GEL excellent post, very clear and easy to understand. It is somewhat along the lines of what I was trying to convey, and again you have shown that you 'get it' and have put a lot of effort into it. Many guys will read this and go 'hey thats what I want from my W' instead of thinking -hmmm how can I act in a way that will generate this response in my W.

Karen,
your post and the silk scarves comment has cracked me and my usual refrain from commiserating. New plan.

I want you to sneak up on him and smack him with a billy club at the base of his skull. A real good wallop. Hopefully this will reprogram, or unscramble his ID and when he regains consciousness will throw you over his shoulder take you to the bedroom and ravage you.

[Cobra]

GEL,

About a year into my M I realized my H didn't think I "needed" him...it didn't matter that I "wanted" him and was in the R because I wanted to be, the fact that I appeared not to "need" him affected him in a bad way. He needed to take care of me in some ways to feel needed.

I can really relate to this. My W thinks and says she does not really need me, that if she had to do all the things I do, she could. If I had more security in our relationship, I would take this comment as a source of pride – “Hey guys, look what kind of multi-talented woman I’ve got.” Instead her staying with me because she wants to does not hold much comfort. I am pretty sure that right now she does not want me. If I know she needs me, I actually feel more comforted. She may be able to change her mind about wanting me, but her need for me (whatever that need is) cannot change as easily. In this way, I am empowered. When she just wants me, she is empowered. To me, this is why being needed is a big deal for men.

[Greeneyedlass]

Cobra,

Have you flat-out explained to her your difference in being "needed" vs "wanted? if you haven't you really should. Don't expect her to just get it. I think I came to the understanding because I was the one looking for answers and actively working on our R.

This is just my own take on things but I do believe "need" vs "want" is an integral difference in men and women. My H needs to be "needed".....I need to be "wanted". Now, in our R...I have figured out how to make him happy and how to fulfill his needs....he has yet to figure out how to show me I'm "wanted", even though I have given him specific things he could do....and basically drawn him a flippin road-map to making GEL happy.

GEL