Something Like "Normal"

[still.struggling]

Underdog....I am glad I read your post here for Hope. It really sums up some of what I am going through. I was very controlling. It was like I was my H's mom and not his wife. I have learned not to expect anything from him or to tell him to do something. If he goes away for a weekend or even if we talk one morning then I always say, "Call if you get a chance". This way he can call if he wants but I don't expect it.

Thank you for that, seeing it in type made me really think about it.

[NYsurvivor]

but if you werer 3000 miles away from your kids, wouldn't you call back later? Or at least leave a message?

This is you imprinting your thoughts about what you would do, unto others.

NYS brought up some good points. I shouldn't expect anything of anyone. Just because I think I should be treated with love and respect doesn't mean anyone else believes that.

To fine tune that point, let's say that "Just because I think I should be treated with love and respect" does not mean that you will receive such from everyone you think should return such.

Just because I believe people should be respectful and honest, doesn't mean others think that way. But come on, how realistic is that???

Very. Don't you think there are quite a number of people out there who mistrust the intents of others? Aren't there also people out there who think they're "honest" but don't mind lying when it serves their interest? Aren't there any rude people out there who don't treat others respectfully?

The point of my previous post to you was not about accepting H's behavior... it's about changing your perception of having certain expectations because it impacts you negatively, and it's YOU that's does that to you, and it's YOU who suffers, so it was YOU I'm trying to help. I'm certainly not here to enable your H in whatever he's doing.

You have a vision of a decent world, where people do the right things (according to your sense of what the right things are). That's wonderful, but we don't live in that world. When we try to live our lives according to our ideal, we invariably encounter situations and people who conflict with that. How we choose to act when that happens is either going to help or hurt us.

For example, you've been waiting on a long line, and someone rudely crashes the line in front of you. You calmly tap them on the shoulder and point out that there's a line, you've been waiting on it... but instead of them offering an apology and scooting to the back of the line, they tell you something about how they were on line earlier and were told to come back to the head of the line, or they insist on staying there claiming they only have one item, or they just brush you off or whatever.

Well, of course if they do any of those things besides taking their proper place at the back of the line, you've got quite the right to be angry. But what do you do with that? Is it your tendency to fume a bit about the outrageous behavior displayed toward you? Do you let it slide reasoning that it's temporary and soon will be over and let it go? Do you dwell on the indignation you feel that this person is slighting you? Do you steam inwardly labeling the person as a jerk? Do you feel that if you let it go that you're not being true to yourself? Do you turn to the cashier for assistance, but the cashier shrugs and offers no help, so now you fume some more?

The point being, that your reaction to when things don't pan out the way you think it should, and for which you may entirely be correct, affect your feelings according to the thoughts you give it.

So, if we're talking about what is "realistic" here, realistic would be that there are some people in the world that crash lines and refuse to move. That if you ask for help from the cashier and the cashier doesn't remedy the situation, that this will happen too. Realistic is that you have the right to be angry. Realistic is also that there are some things you cannot control. Realistic is that not everything or everybody will pan out in your favor. Realistic is that you asserted yourself with dignity, and did what you could do. But to stew, or fume, or get stay angry or dwell on the indignity, that only hurts you, and does not affect or change the situation. That's a disservice to yourself and sense of well-being.

That's all I'm saying to change, for your own peace of mind.

The only thing you can do is what your heart tells you to do.

We hear this sentiment often, but the heart is fickle and plays tricks on us. Look at what following their "heart" does to a WAS! We have to train our hearts to follow us, rather than be led around by them. Otherwise, we're reacting on our emotions, rather than acting on our intellect. We have to get our hearts to be in accord with our heads.

[Hopeful_Future]

Betsey - I see what you're saying, but I guess part of me disagrees. I think that when two people are in a R, that there should be some okay level of expectations of the other person. Why would you be in a R with someone if you didn't expect them to treat you a certain way? And why would it be wrong to feel upset over those expectations not being met? If I can't expect anything of XH then why be with him? What point is there in a R with him if I can't have simple expecations of him? God knows he has them of me.

Anyway...
He did leave a voice mail when he called yesterday. Nothing exciting but he did leave one. I just got the notice on my phone.

I sent him a text letting him know I just got it and to call when he could.

As I said to someone else earlier, I don't care what way people try to spin this, if he cared about me or the girls in a way someone in a R should, he would have made an effort. To me, right or wrong, love is determined by the level of effort you put in to it.

Yes, that's more expectations and shoulds, but I still believe it's unrealistic in a R to say that you should never have an expectation of the other person or think that they should treat you a certain way.

Blast away...

[Hopeful_Future]

I give up. I honestly don't know what else to say right now. So basically I should expect nothing of him, and when he treats me like crap I should say "thank you"?

[Just_Me]

I have learned not to expect anything from him or to tell him to do something.

Oh my God. I can't quite believe this! These are controlling behaviors? Asking someone to call you? Wanting them to let you know if they will be home for dinner? Sure, these things could be handled a different way, like telling them exactly why you want the call..."I worry. Could you just let me know. We miss you...we just like to hear from you". Yeah, stuff like that. And you say...I have learned not to expect anything of him? Is this what we've learned from DB? No thank you. So even when married you wouldn't expect him not to cheat on you? Because wanting him to be faithful is controlling. Hmmmmmm

[Underdog]

No, Hope, I did not mean that marriage cannot allow you to have expecations. I think there are general expecations that one probably can verbalize: fidelity, honesty, and a true commitment.

In an equal partnership, BOTH parties want to improve themselves for the better of the marriage... which is a true partnership.

It is certainly within your boundaries and expectations to say to your H: I feel happy when you call me on trips just to check in and say hello to me and the kids.

You express your feelings, and if he is truly committed to making things better and making you happy, he will find a way to meet your needs. If he chooses to remain stuck in the world of resentment and unforgiveness, then that will provide you with the answers you need to make some decisions for your own future. (As far as I'm concerned, there is no hope for a marriage as long as either party chooses to hold on to these things.)

Hope, I see you placing yourself in a box. You have concrete ideas on how people should behave and speak when they are with you. Don't you think that's a bit controlling? I also think that in the long run, you'll find that people don't want to work on their R with you--nothing is ever what you expect or want and it will never be good enough if it's not exactly what YOU want. BTW, I'm using the word *you* as a generality.

I think that right now, it would be wise to leave many of your expecations off the agreement table. He's wavering on whether or not your marriage is worth his time and effort. He's probably also looking very closely at your behaviors (verbal and non-verbal) which might give him a clue whether or not you are willing to change.

Like it or not, your H has one foot out the door. I'll ask you point blank: do you want to work on yourself and see if he might soften or do you want to shove him out and slam it? I don't know how your story will end, Hope, but until you can possibly see things from his POV and have empathy, he just might make that choice for you.

Look, I expected my XH to want to make me happy... the more I gave in to the process of what that looked like, the more possibilities I seemed to generate. I may be divorced, but we have more respect and compassion for each other than many married people I know.

Hope, the only reason I held on to my controlling behaviors was fear. Fear that I might have to change more than I already had. But you know what? We're asked to continue changing. To be better and happier people. And often that requires us growing up and leaving our own egos and agendas behind.

You've got some amazing help here on your thread. Perhaps you can take a deep breath, say a prayer and find the value in what they are trying to convey to you.

Good luck.

Betsey

[still.struggling]

I think we are doing more harm to you than help. Your brain is probably on overload right now. Do like I do. I really do take the advice that people give me to heart but I try not to let something that I don't agree with bother me. It is sometimes hard to do. I'm sorry if we are confusing you more than you already are. Everyone has their own opinion on how to handle something. I don't think you should say thank you if he treats you like crap.

It is really hard to give advice when my life is in such a turmoil. I think from now on I am just going to post "stay positive" and leave it at that. I am not one who you should listen to for advice. Why take advice from me? My life is so screwed up right now that I shouldn't even have the right to try and give advice.

I am all for working on a relationship. That is the mode I am in. Some people who have been through this and divorced might think different. One day I might think different. Right now I am so scared my H will decide our marriage isn't something to fight for. I want to hear everything positive. I hate the negative stuff. I need to wake up and really think about this.

Someone asked me one day if I really wanted my H back after all the mean things he has said to me in the last 8 months. My answer was yes. Some days I wonder if we really can overlook all that we have been through. I hope the answer is yes but I really don't know. I'm sure if he decides to come home it is going to be awkward. We have been apart for 8 months. No touching, kissing or anything. It is like meeting him all over again.

I guess we are the only ones who can decide what is right or wrong for us. We can listen to the advice we are given but do we really listen to it? If someone told me that I should just give up on my marriage I don't think I would listen to them. I am going to do what I want to do. Another friend who has been divorced for 8 years told me I would know when to throw in the towel. She said deep down in my heart I will know when it is over. I am not ready to give up yet. Hope, I don't think you are either. From your posts you don't sound like you are ready for that. I could be wrong.

I hope things work out for you.

[NYsurvivor]

So basically I should expect nothing of him, and when he treats me like crap I should say "thank you"?

No one told you to think that. You're making an absurd conclusion. By "absurd", I mean not that you're absurd, but that such a conclusion is way off.

Yes, that's more expectations and shoulds, but I still believe it's unrealistic in a R to say that you should never have an expectation of the other person or think that they should treat you a certain way.

Certainly in an equal relationship there's a requirement of reciprocity. I demonstrate love, support, respect for you, I expect the same back.

Things is, unless your partner's a clone, you're not going to get it back quite the way you may expect. People are different from each other. Some things may satisfy, other things may not. It's how you work that out that counts.

Take the "Love Language" concept, for example. Partner A feels loved if their given praise, Partner B feels more loved if quality time is spent with them. So, say Partner A isn't getting sufficient affirmation from Partner B. It doesn't mean Partner B loves Partner A any less, it's just that this emotional need has to be communicated, Partner B has to make the effort to meet that need, which they will if they're dedicated to always working on the relationship and willing to expend the effort.

But Partner B will still be an individual, a different person, and may demonstrate the giving of that emotional need in their own way, which they see as demonstrating that need. Now, if Partner A has higher or more specific expectations of how that should be demonstrated, Partner A has the option of explaining this, but if it becomes overwhelming to Partner B, then it's impractical. But that still doesn't mean Partner B loves them any less. It means Partner B may be thinking, "No matter what I do, it's not good enough!" and starts to reel from that. So there's a compromise that happens where expectations need to be put aside for the sake of the relationship.

That's a far different situation where one partner is being abusive to the other, either verbally, emotionally, physically.

But those 'relationship" expectations are different than expecting certain thoughts and actions from the other, such as: "He should've called by now, what's wrong with him?" or "Doesn't he realize I'd like to go to the movies tonight? How many clues do I have to leave for him?!" or "Why didn't he prepare dinner, I've been out all day and I'm tired and hungry and he didn't think to prepare dinner when he realized I wouldn't be home? What's wrong with him?!"

Not to say that those issues shouldn't be part of what's worked out in a relationship, but to say that harboring ill feelings that arise from certain expectations not being met not only makes you feel lousy and view the relationship negatively, but it puts you on the wrong track to resolving them.

These are controlling behaviors? Asking someone to call you? Wanting them to let you know if they will be home for dinner? Sure, these things could be handled a different way, like telling them exactly why you want the call..."I worry. Could you just let me know. We miss you...we just like to hear from you". Yeah, stuff like that. And you say...I have learned not to expect anything of him? Is this what we've learned from DB? No thank you. So even when married you wouldn't expect him not to cheat on you? Because wanting him to be faithful is controlling. Hmmmmmm

That's another absurd conclusion. Everyone exhibits some sort of "controlling behaviors" even if control is not really what's behind it. "Controlling behaviors" by definition are behaviors put forth in order to achieve something for one's self or to determine a certain outcome one wishes to achieve. "Please pass the mustard" could be described as a controlling behavior, but it's usually not, right?

Asking someone to call you when they get home because you'll worry otherwise serves your purpose of feeling at ease that they're safe. But to the other person, they may see it as overbearing. Why? because up until they met you, they were fully capable of making it home on their own safely, and now your insistence on them calling may feel to them like you think they're an incapable kid, or you checking up on them.

"we miss you, please call" is an earnest bid. But if they choose to not call, or can't call, what you do with that event will either impact you negatively or not.

Agaian, don't confuse reasonable relationship expectations with unrealistic expectations.

[Just_Me]

I lost my other post.

I exaggerated for the sake of argument. Yes, pass the mustard is controlling. But oh well. I agree completely with trying2staypositive. Too much right now.

But I wanted to just ask everyone that is chiming in, including me, to put themselves in Hope's shoes for a second. Maybe she does have her expectations too high, maybe she does have controlling behaviors. She can look at those and work on them. I've consistently said that she should put the focus entirely on herself and I don't mean learning to tolerate things that currently drive her nuts. I mean getting a life, being happy, and working on the things that she feels may be undesirable traits. Not working on the things just to make her husband happy. I don't think she should change herself just for him....(see Beth's previous post)...But Whatever...

But imagine this: You want a relationship with your estranged spouse, but it never works out. He doesn't come back. You get divorced. You get your own life and become satisfied with your independence, but still want your XS. Then here he is, you go out on dates, have sex, spend a lot of time together, eventually move in together and it feels like love. Then loe and behold, your XS informs you that it isn't love. He just doesn't feel it. He doesn't love you. And every day you see him and most days through complete disregard for you he reminds you through his actions how he feels. Also he demanded that you give up the activities you did when you were single. Those things are not appropriate. This husband you wanted back so bad goes out whenever he pleases, wherever he pleases, with whoever he pleases even other women and stays out til 3 am or later. You are not supposed to have expectations that he'll tell you where he is or what he is doing and you aren't supposed to even ask. Basically he comes and goes essentially like a roommate. Oh, the upside is that occasionally there are glimpses of love and they have sex, but it's usually just that. Now tell me...is she better off before or now? And what do you do? I'm not suggesting an answer, just trying to fit in her shoes. I personally would prefer staying the way I am now. Betsey, your relationship is better now (mine is too)...would you trade it for Hope's situation?

[Toomanywords]

Hope - we are all here for similar reasons (WAS, D, EA, PA). We all have the same map (DB) and we all have our own views and opinions.
We here care about you. I for one just don't want to see you keep hurting and being used. I simply encourage you to do what you want to do. Say what you want to say. If you want to stay and try to work on things longer- do it. If you want to give up and leave- do it. If you want to call him- call. If you want to go out, have fun and forget all your worries- do it.

1 idea for your week/weekend is have a girls day with friends/daughters/whoever. Get dressed up and go to lunch, go shopping. Sit and watch movies, gab, gossip, play games, play dress up, experiment with new make up, try a new drink. Just have some fun and try to get your mind of the sitch at least for a few hours.

HUGS!