I am willing to negotiate custody issues, but I'm not willing to be an "empty suit" when it comes to being a father to my children.
The Christmas custody negotiations have begun. Last year I had DD's for Thanksgiving dinner and WAW had DD's for Christmas dinner. This year WAW had DD's for Thanksgiving dinner and I was making plans to have them for Christmas dinner at 5PM. WAW wants them for Christmas dinner at 6PM.
The schedule is complicated and I'm not going to lay it all out here. My question is this, given that fact that I would rather be negotiating a reconciliation w/WAW (that's why I'm here) and that I want to validate WAW's feelings, how do I respond to this?
Quote: You started it all when you refused to let them stay overnight with me during the week. I have to fight with you to spend equal time with them.
Ouch! From my perspective, the reason that I spend more time w/DD is b/c WAW moved out. DD's don't spend 2 nights a week at WAW's apt, b/c in the beginning they didn't want to and now I feel that it's too much shuffling back and forth. WAW has filed a custody complaint against me.
Obviously WAW is not going to want to come back if her perception is that of having to fight w/me. However since I'm close to delivering a Dobson letter, do I not buffer the results of our separation? Sometimes this is just too hard.
So, any idea's on how to communicate w/ and validate WAW feelings?
This year WAW had DD's for Thanksgiving dinner and I was making plans to have them for Christmas dinner at 5PM. WAW wants them for Christmas dinner at 6PM... how do I respond to this?
By saying, "No, sorry. Last year you had them for Christmas, this year it's my turn. You just had them for Thanksgiving. Would you like them for New Year's?"
Ouch! From my perspective, the reason that I spend more time w/DD is b/c WAW moved out. DD's don't spend 2 nights a week at WAW's apt, b/c in the beginning they didn't want to and now I feel that it's too much shuffling back and forth.
So, in other words, W's assessment is correct.
Obviously WAW is not going to want to come back if her perception is that of having to fight w/me. However since I'm close to delivering a Dobson letter, do I not buffer the results of our separation? Sometimes this is just too hard. So, any idea's on how to communicate w/ and validate WAW feelings?
Oh yeah, a Dobson Letter will melt her heart!
Man, you're all over the map!
Decide what you want to do. The hard line... or not. Not just decide what you want to do... but think hard first about what you can bear up in your resolve to do, OK?
Hey Jabez. I don't know what a Dobson letter is or what the purpose is, but I wouldn't give the letter to her. That's just one girl's opinion, but for what it's worth to ya, there it is. I don't know how much you've been able to validate WAW's feelings, but if you've made any progress there, the above letter will strip that to nothing.
If WAW had the girls for X-mas dinner last year, I would expect that you would have them for X-mas dinner this year. I'm sorry you're going through this. I can only imagine how difficult it is to spend time away from them, especially around the holidays.
Jabez, in your situation, I can see where it would be so tempting to tell yourself that WAW walked out on the family. My H tells me the same thing....that if I leave, I'm walking out on the family. You may not agree with WAW or understand her reasons for leaving, but it seems self-serving to me to tell yourself that being with you most of the time is best for the girls. Is WAW a bad mother? Shuffling around is tough, no doubt about it. But so is being away from people you love. And presumably, your girls love their mother. Are you sure you really feel this arrangement is best or are you just trying to convince yourself it's best? I know that's a tough question and by no means do you have to answer it if you don't want. I'm not trying to make you feel judged. Just think about it.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Hey Jabez. I don't know what a Dobson letter is or what the purpose is
A Dobson letter is another name for the "After the LRT". It's a letter that says I love you and because I do, I'm letting you go.
My H tells me the same thing....that if I leave, I'm walking out on the family.
Yes, not only is it tempting, but it's true. I don't agree w/WAW for walking away and saying its over, its done, nothing can bring it back so I'm not going to even try, b/c I love someone else. I can respect the fact that she was not happy in our M, but I can't respect just quitting and not trying. I know this will sound conceited, but I don't drink, smoke, do drugs, hang out late w/other friends. WAW & I make about the same amount of $ and from my perception, we always made $ and major decisions together. I willingly took on a share of cleaning, laundry, grocery shopping, etc. I was dedicated to W and DD's. WAW didn't do this b/c of me, but rather because of her past (which I didn't know about until the pre-bomb in 2002) and the model of marriage that her parents have lived for more than 50 years.
My H tells me the same thing....that if I leave, I'm walking out on the family.
In your case, if you walk out, its b/c your H has emotionally abandoned you. You made a bad mistake. You've apologized for it umpteen times and really, truly want to resolve this, but H just can't let it go, but at the same time, can't let you go. His in limbo land and seems to enjoy holding this over your head to control you. If you walk out it's because of his drinking, emotional abuse and (borderline) physical abuse. I'm not telling you what to do, and I'm sorry if this came off as a little harsh, but our sitch's are (in your best cookie monster voice) the "same, but different". Both W's made a mistake, but I wish my W had your attitude and I wish your H had my attitude.
Is WAW a bad mother?
Well let's see. Does WAW physically abuse DD's? Nope. Are they well fed, clean and dressed? Yup. Does she help them w/homework? Yup. Has she enrolled the 3 of them in an exercise class together? Yup. Is she supporting them financially? Yup. Has she emotionally hurt them? Yup. Have they told her the she is "ruining their lives"? Yup. Did she tell them that she is dating OM b/c she doesn't love me but loves him? Yup. Did she tell them that she was going on vacation w/OM this past summer? Yup. Does she not make & eat dinner w/her daughters half the time so that she can eat dinner w/OM? Yup. I guess the answer depends on the behavior and attitude you expect from a "bad" mother.
Are you sure you really feel this arrangement is best or are you just trying to convince yourself it's best?
If you consider the "extra" 8 hours that the girls are sleeping in the same house as I am, then, yeah, they do spend most of the time with me. If you look at "awake time", then I have 2 hours a week more w/D13 and 4 hours more a week w/D15. Considering all the shuffling around of DD's staying w/WAW two nights a week, is it in their best interest to start and end each school day from a different place for 2 or 4 more hours a week w/WAW? Their lives and schedules were already changed drastically in 2004, is it in their best interest to make this an annual event? Let me pose it to you this way. How would you feel if someone told you that you had to sleep in a different house every other night? Would you have a sense of home? If someone asked "Where do you live?", how would you answer? Would you have an added layer of anxiety knowing that even though today is Tuesday, when I leave the house this morning, I have to make sure that I have everything I need for Tuesday and Wednesday? I don't think teenage girls need to have another layer of anxiety added to their lives.
I do realize that I blew off some steam here. And I do appreciate you and NY posting. It makes me look at the overall sitch as well as the details. (And now, on to the blasphemy) It's just that I feel let down by DBing. The part that says GAL, helped me. The parts that say these 7 steps, acting as if, validating, doing the LRT, etc will change your W, haven't affected her. (Remember "It takes 1 to tango"?) And so now I've come to a point where I feel like either I've failed at DBing, meaning I didn't do it right, or I was duped and I've lost the opportunity to save my R/M. The last success story was posted in Dec of 2004. Is PMA just a "mind game"? By not acknowledging and expressing our feelings are we living in a self-constructed fantasy? I've been able to do some things this past year that I wouldn't have normally done, but there are also many, many more things that I didn't get to do b/c of the sitch.
Yeah, I'm still not commited to tough love. I think b/c it deals w/emotions and for me it is a decision and process to get to tough love.
Again, I really do appreciate the time and thought that everyone had put into their replies.
The parts that say these 7 steps, acting as if, validating, doing the LRT, etc will change your W, haven't affected her.
It also mentions, a number of times, that nothing's guaranteed and that truly it may be over; that the WAS isn't coming back, right?
Those mentioned techniques are all ways in which to help climb out of the emotional turmoil we find ourselves in, as we're using inherent techniques that stuck us there.
Is PMA just a "mind game"?
Everything's a "mind" game, more or less. Confidence, esteem, optimism is, as is insecurity, self-loathing, pessimism. We live in our skin, and all our contact and perception of others and the world around is through our senses, which are then interpreted by our minds. the way we see the world and participate in it, though originating in reality, is very much via our minds.
By not acknowledging and expressing our feelings are we living in a self-constructed fantasy?
No one says not to acknowledge one's own feelings. But we do say that there's appropriate and inappropriate expressing of it; there's thinking it through to determine it's validity; there's understanding distorted reasoning processes so as to break through them. It's not about knee jerking to one's feelings through life, not if you want it to be successful.
Reality is what you make of it, then. Our reality, most of us here, is that our spouses cheated on us and left. And we wanted them back. We also felt indignant. We're all at different stages and different maturity levels and different perceptions of it all. Choose any reality you wish, there's likely a conflicting feeling somewhere along the way, or a price to pay.
By not acknowledging and expressing our feelings are we living in a self-constructed fantasy? Hmmm, come to think of it, our WASs are acknowledging and expressing their feelings - and mostly living in a self-constructed fantasy as a result.
If you consider the "extra" 8 hours that the girls are sleeping in the same house as I am, then, yeah, they do spend most of the time with me. If you look at "awake time", then I have 2 hours a week more w/D13 and 4 hours more a week w/D15.
I didn't realize the amount of time spent with the girls was so close between you and WAW. I guess I don't fully know what the current arrangement is.
but our sitch's are (in your best cookie monster voice) the "same, but different".
That is hilarious. I can do a great cookie monster voice ya know!!!! Thanks for the laugh.
How would you feel if someone told you that you had to sleep in a different house every other night?
I would hate it. And I wouldn't recommend that any separated parents take 50/50 custody to that extreme.
You're doing a great job Jabez. DBing doesn't save every marriage. But can you maybe see where it saved or protected a very important piece of *you* during this process? At a minimum, your integrity?
I see a lot of conviction in your words at how strongly you disagree with what WAW has done and continues to do. But I think you focus too much on trying to make her *see* your points. Even your Dobson letter was focused way too much on how you feel about what she has done. The way you feel is completely understandable, don't get me wrong. But with WAW, your words fall on deaf ears Jabez. Save your strength for your girls and your next R.
Your friend, Heather
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
That is hilarious. I can do a great cookie monster voice ya know!!!! Thanks for the laugh.
I have to give credit to my brother. He says it all the time.
I would hate it. And I wouldn't recommend that any separated parents take 50/50 custody to that extreme. You're doing a great job Jabez.
Thank you for your validation of my feelings and efforts.
can you maybe see where it saved or protected a very important piece of *you* during this process? At a minimum, your integrity?
Oddly enough the first thing I asked WAW when I found her love note to OM was "What about your integrity?" So yes integrity is a very important value to me. And yes it is important to protect my integrity.
Even your Dobson letter was focused way too much on how you feel about what she has done. Even your Dobson letter was focused way too much on how you feel about what she has done.
I feel like I've been very accomodating to WAW and now I need to be more about me and my happiness. I don't feel like WAW has considered my feelings at all. (How nieve after 10 months of DBing) I left a voice mail for the attorney to talk about the custody complaint and what steps are in my best interest to go forward w/the D. Perhaps we'll be part of those minute few who remarry after D, perhaps not. In either case, I need to totally drop the rope and I think the first step is a letter saying I'm letting you go that has been "approved" by a DBC & an attorney and then after that . . . let the settlement negotiations begin.
Thanks for being my friend Heather. Next time BB has a DB party, I'd like to come and meet you, BB et all. It would be fun to talk "cookie monster".
It sounds like you've thought through the letter and you're confident that giving it to WAW is the best decision for you. Maybe it can give you a little bit of closure and/or finality with the D decision and allow you to drop the rope as you feel you need to. I'm pulling for you!
Next time BB has a DB party, I'd like to come and meet you, BB et all. It would be fun to talk "cookie monster".
Keep us in the loop Bud, you've been designated the party planner!!
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
