I would not conclude that the Mrs-to-be-hd had sex with hd on first date because she enjoyed physical contact. I think there are a multitude of reasons why someone might have sex on a first, second, third date.
Maybe she wanted to prove to herself that she was attractive. Maybe it was a buildup of tension that needed release. Maybe she was curious how hd would be in the sack. Maybe she had a bet with some girlfriends. Maybe she just wanted to get that over with so she wouldn't wonder every time they went out if "tonight's going to be the night." Maybe she felt the need to "score" for one of the above reasons or another.
I'm more curious if the sex early in the R was easy, playful, sensuous, fun... or if early on it became a power struggle, fraught with meaning, etc. If I'm remembering correctly, things kind of went downhill after y'all moved, right?
I agree with SD, that it's often easier to make yourself vulnerable to people who are not close to you. You don't really have a stake in whether they stick around, or not. So maybe I should be flattered that she feels so close to me that she doesn't want anything to do with me?!
Anyway, I don't know why she ML so early in the relationship. (Truth be told, in another relationship after my marriage ended, I had sex on our first date...and we ended up dating for about seven months. It must be that I'm irresistable). Who knows?
Early in the relationship, I remember the sex as fairly playful and fun, although she was not very "adventurous." She pretty much limited the positions to me on top or her on top. No oral. Nowhere but the bedroom. She would tell you that our sex life became stressful fairly early on, when after she had said "no" several times, I got "grumpy" or "grouchy" or "mean." Now, understand that "mean" means that I'd sigh when I'd roll over. Oh, and then there was that time that I was sitting in her mom's family room, and she was telling her mom how she didn't like to be touched at night by me because it made her feel like she had to pee. Her mom said, "maybe it wasn't that you had to pee." She winked at us. I said, "oh, no, it wasn't that either." This fairly benign and somewhat humorous conversation occurred five years ago and it is still brought up today as a clear example of how I can be so mean.
Whatever.
Lillie, things kind of went "downhill" from about 6 months into the relationship, as far as intimacy is concerned. Even in our second year together, I think we ML less than a dozen times. It has declined steadily since then.
Anyway, I don't know why she ML so early in the relationship. (Truth be told, in another relationship after my marriage ended, I had sex on our first date...and we ended up dating for about seven months. It must be that I'm irresistable). Who knows
Quote: in another relationship after my marriage ended, I had sex on our first date...and we ended up dating for about seven months. It must be that I'm irresistable
I'm POSITIVE about this! I love those uptight Jewish guys! (I'm serious-- I loved Joel Fleishmann on Northern Exposure, and the tension between him and Maggie for all those years was delicious!)
The convo you reported in her mom's presence was interesting, to say the least! Does your W have to be non-sexy as a way of proving she's NOT like her mom and "other women"? Is it her way of being different and "special"? When the enneagram One (which I believe she is) moves in the direction of dysfunction, they move to Four. And the Curse of the Four (not to be confused with the Arthur Conan Doyle story of similar name) is the need to be different, special, unique, not like other people. (I am marked with the curse of the four. )
Well, Hairy is Jewish, but I've never gotten the impression that he's uptight at all. In fact, I have always found myself drawn to his posts because he reminds me so much of my funny H.
Who is, now that I think about it, uptight. LOL
No seriously now, I can't see Hairy being uptight. In fact, I think that a little more uptightness and hyper-responsibility might be a good addition to his personality--and mine.
Am I uptight? I certainly can be, but generally, no.
And yes, Lil, W is certainly four-ish, in that she always wants to be "different." I remember, early on in the SSM struggle when I did all kinds of research about sexual frequency to prove that ours was "below normal." She really bristled at that, saying that nothing about her life should ever be "normal" which she equated with "ordinary." She has always wanted to be "extraordinary."
You guys are doing a great job of stroking my ego. I think the important lessons of the past week are that I need to continue to strive to be honest and open, that I need to conquer the unhealthy effects of fear in my life, and that I need to fight the power.
Quote: Oh, and then there was that time that I was sitting in her mom's family room, and she was telling her mom how she didn't like to be touched at night by me because it made her feel like she had to pee. Her mom said, "maybe it wasn't that you had to pee." She winked at us. I said, "oh, no, it wasn't that either." This fairly benign and somewhat humorous conversation occurred five years ago and it is still brought up today as a clear example of how I can be so mean.
Whatever.
HD, get a response to this and then whenever it is trotted out, plug in your new, well-thought out response.
Here are a few of my thoughts -
Exactly how were you supposed to feel sitting there like a chump while wife tells mom that she dislikes your touch and that it makes her want to pee?
If she didn't want personal info presented to mom, then she shouldn't have opened it up for review. Or are the "rules" that she can say anything about you, but any opinions you have of her are to remain forever unheard?
Were you mean because you let the cat out of the bag regarding your wife's refusal to have sex with you? Exactly what was "mean" about your response?
Were you not embarrassed by her discussing her distaste for your touch in public? Can you not reply to her "you're mean" by pointing out how shameful her actions were in public? That you were embarrassed for her when she said that? Would you say that keeping what she actually is and does a *secret* is important to her?
You need desperately to stop being controlled by her opinions. I learned a long time ago that the most disgruntled person controls the show, if everyone lets them.
I wonder if you look at your list "make love to my wife" and then look at her list "clean house, cook meals, get groceries, care for daughter, try to make her feel safe, accepting her anger when she's 3 sheets in the wind, stay in her budget, be more spiritual, learn to accept 'no', etc. "
You've got a short list, she's got one that's a mile long.
So, I wonder if she looks at the marriage and says to herself - Harry's getting everything he wants but sex, but look at all this stuff he needs to be doing to meet my expectations.
HD: sex HD's wife: all of the above and more
So, she's looking at it and thinking you've got it good.
Interesting. So, your contention is that in Hairy's silence, his not rocking the boat etc... Mrs. HD assumes that she is just the stellar spouse in all areas but the bedroom. Hairy, on the other hand is clearly deficient because there are so many things that she regularly complains about.
She's a pretty smart lady. Surely, somewhere inside she realizes that she bullies him into silence. I'm sure she does so to protect herself psychologically somehow but the result is that she makes sure he only has one "safe" area to complain about - sex. Periodically, she tries to even take away his right to complain about that too by saying that if he "accepts" her not being interested then things will magically change.
I have said it before and I'll say it again. Ms. HD is a uniquely tough nut to crack. She appears capable of some awfully complex verbal, emotional and intellectual gymnastics just to keep the status quo: Her "on top" in the R, making the decisions, deciding who is right and who is wrong and whether or not they will touch, talk or have sex.
I hope one day she reconsiders what all this is costing her.
) 
